Why He Wins

[00:36]

Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast powered by the macro transmission of a K-filter wavelength in a self-replicating energy Blindfold Matrix.

And also, of course, by love.

I'm Nathan.

I'm James.

I'm Peter.

And I'm Todd.

Well, turns out David Tennant didn't regenerate quite as we expected, and so it's time for him to take his 18 month victory lap, which will begin with a lot of people standing around talking in rooms until Bad Wolfmark 2 turns up.

It's funny and thrilling and only slightly problematic.

It's journeys end.

[01:38]

Todd, were you disappointed by the final outcome of the regeneration here?

Um...

Yes and no?

Like, I mean, if David had regenerated. fine, you know?

But of course, you couldn't really for story reasons and contracts.

And the fact that you get to use the cutoff hand from the Christmas invasion as a plot point, which has been, you know, circling this whole series since the end of season one and Torchwood, I just think it's hilarious that something that Russell throws in as like showing how regeneration works, something different.

Um, And he never knows why he uses it, does these things.

He just does them and then it works out to be, well, here we go.

We can use it right here as to why he can syphon off his regeneration energy and still look like he looks and that's the brilliance of Russell T. Davies in terms of why he does what he does.

[02:42]

It's also something that Moffatt does, isn't it?

When Moffat comes back to this in time of the doctor.

And he gets the doctor to explain why he regenerated into himself.

And the explanation he gives is, you know, I had a sort of vanity thing going.

And it is that, that's how tenant react.

And so both of them are able to find things in Doctor Who's history, things that are lying around and repurpose them and find new things to do with them.

And we talked last week so much about Russell's creative process and he's clearly doing that here.

I'd forgotten that the hand is on the set of torchwood, like right from the beginning.

Isn't it in the 1st episode?

And all of this season, it's been lying around in plain sight in the Tartars.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's tremendous.

It's so great.

Such a clever thing.

And of course, the way regeneration is, he could make up anything for, you know, to make it have any effect that he wants it to have, really.

[03:44]

I mean, it is the signalling, I think, in this episode that the plot mechanics are going to start taking over, which makes it slightly less joyous than last week, but still utterly joyous.

Well, I mean, the 1st real joyous moment is the resolution of Sarah James Cliffhanger, where we get the 2 missing pieces, who weren't here last week, and that's Jackie and Mickey.

Smiths had to stick together.

And less than less than just Jackie, but Jackie with a massive gun.

We've talked previously about Russell thinking in comic strip terms.

And I was talking to friend of the podcast, Stuart Manning about this, and the fact that everyone's toting a gun, and his view was that Russell likes a big comic strip image.

You know, he's a cartoonist.

We've talked about that.

And there's that fab pre-credit shot of Rose appearing in the street last week with the gum strapped over her shoulder, and that's the full page final frame image.

But Russell being Russell has to undercut that and then does it with Jackie because that's hilarious.

[04:51]

It's such a joyous moment.

Less joyous, perhaps, is the way in which Gwen and Leanto get out of their predicament with a time lock program that Tosh is working on, so now she can manipulate time and energy fields, and it's one of these things that perhaps you're alluded to, is that this week I think we get a lot more scientific mumbo jumbo to get out of things throughout the episode, which makes it slightly less joyous for me at certain times where I kind of think, 0 my goodness, what are we going on with now?

Does that really make any sense?

Obviously, the counterpoint is all the lovely relationships and things that go on.

But I do struggle a bit with some of that stuff in this episode.

And who knew as well that Tosh could not handle a space piggy, but she could stop time.

I actually think that Torchwood is a little bit underserved in this.

And it is nice to have Gwen and Yanto in it, but they don't get very much to do.

I do like the scene where Gwen is attacking a Dalek with a machine gun.

[05:55]

That's fantastic.

And I like the scene where she goes up and sort of pokes one of the bullets and stuff.

That's all sort of very fun, but then it is very, definitely lampshaded.

No, we're stuck in here for the duration and we're not going to be doing anything.

Do you know what it reminded me of?

The scenes from Shada that were used in the 5 doctors.

Ah, yeah.

They're caught in a time loop.

They can't interact with the rest of the story. we'd come back and they were punching down the cam.

We're spotted the answer.

We're going to stick and Gwen laid out with a BFG.

Well, you know, like, I think that Camille Kajuri sort of made the point that she doesn't get that much to do in this episode and like there are a lot of moving parts.

There are a lot of people and everyone gets great character moments, but they don't all get great plot moments, I think.

And I'm okay with that.

Like I would sooner, like I would never say, Russell, you needed to have fewer guest stars and give each of them a more interesting arc.

[06:58]

That's not what this is for.

And so just seeing Yanto, having him do a few great lines, having Gwen, you know, fire a big gun, all of those things are absolutely worth seeing, and I don't care if those characters don't get that much to do.

In a lot of ways, Jackie gets more to do than a lot of the other characters she gets put in, you know, potential peril.

Yeah.

Like, there's the whole scene where she's about to get fairy dusted and...

Well, with Gita from EastEnders.

Yes.

Can I just say as well, sorry, James, just on that point.

Geeta, I think, from EastEnders is like Elton from Love and Monsters.

The doctor is woven through her life because not only is she there with Sarah on board that dalek ship, about to be disintegrated, but in 1993, the 6th doctor in ace visited her clothes store in Walsh. coincidence.

Sorry, James.

There's that.

And, well, you know, Elton was actually supposed to come back in this story too.

[08:02]

Actually, that reminds me.

Like how?

But, but it's that bit, James, it's not just, you know, her getting to have part of the action, but it's her getting to have a character moment because you remember that they're all herded into this big room where they're testing the reality bomb, which doesn't seem to be a bomb.

It seems to be a ray, but like whatever.

And they're sort of all there, and they're all going to be disintegrated, and Jack and Mickey and Jackie are going to escape, and the reason that Jackie doesn't go with them is that Gita has had a little bit of a turn and she's panicking and the Daleks are threatening her, and Jackie helped her, you know, like he's kind to her.

And then when Jackie realises that she's going to abandon her and can't do anything about it, she says, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.

Like for a 2nd she becomes the doctor.

Even Jackie, you know, who is the butt of all of the jokes and who everyone sort of makes fun of for being sort of trivial or incompetent or whatever.

[09:09]

Like even Jackie has learned to be like the doctor.

It's a great point that you just made there.

Again, I find it.

I guess the mechanics of it is something that I get hung up on.

Like she's got this big yellow button to push.

Why does it suddenly just deposit her on the other side of that door with Mickey?

Why doesn't it send her back to wherever?

To the other universe or whatever.

I mean, I know because the plot requires it to be there.

Yeah.

They're using that to teleport around here, aren't they?

And that's how they get them up off Earth.

They get Sarah up with the Daleks, don't they?

With the teleport.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I mean, that's how they sort of get them around, I guess.

The plotting logistics are secondary to what this episode is, which is the event, it's the reunion.

And so the fact that Davros is just building a bomb is pretty pedestrian.

I mean, that's Doctor Who boilerplates.

And, hey, do you think you got the idea from Kara in Revelation of the Dialects?

[10:10]

What are you going to do, Davris?

I'm going to build a bomb, a bomb, a great big bomb.

But also the logic of it doesn't work.

That's rare for Russell.

The logic, if that doesn't work, because it's a bomb that will supposedly wipe out all other dimensions except for the Daleks.

But if you think about other dimensions, there will be other dimensions there where the Daleks have built this bomb and the doctor hasn't been able to stop them, and so they will have decinated it and wiped out all dimensions.

There is that issue about possible and actual worlds, which is, yes, it doesn't sort of quite work if you think of those worlds as possibilities, but somehow able to interact with one another.

There's a whole sort of kind of philosophy that deals with things like probabilities and might and should by positing imaginary possible worlds.

I think these have to be a different kind of world than that for this to work.

I think the reality bomb is a great idea, and it's absolutely Russell Techno Babble in that it does exactly what it says on the tin.

[11:12]

It's a bomb that blows up reality.

You know what I mean?

Mum is not sitting next to you on the couch saying, what's a reality bomb, right?

Like, it's all just very clear what it is.

And I think as well that it is the payoff of that conversation that Davros has with the doctor in Genesis of the Daleks, about wiping everything out.

And I read about time, uh, before recording this, and they mention dialogue, even in destiny of the Daleks, where Davros talks about creating weaponry that will destroy all mass that it encounters.

And so Davros has always wanted to destroy everything.

And so, you know, we bring him back, what's he doing?

He's destroying everything.

Yeah, it totally works.

I get I get what you're saying.

For me, it's the weakest thing where my grand plan is just to destroy everything.

[12:13]

I don't I don't know.

I just...

No, no.

It's not subtle, you know.

You know, we get reality bomb, time lock.

What do we have?

we've got the Osterhagen key.

I love that name.

Osterhagen.

It's like ice cream.

It's an anagram of Earth's Gone.

There you go.

How many brain cells did they use up on that one?

And again, in this episode, like last episode, we had misdirection with Jack saying, oh, Martha's down, right?

So to try and make you think that she's dead when she uses Project Indigo.

Here with the TARDIS going into the core of the Dalek crucible.

You know, it's misdirection that it's going to be torn apart.

Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

I mean, we know we know that neither of those things are going to happen.

We know that Martha's not going to be killed and the TARDIS is not going to be destroyed.

And we know that Donna's not going to be killed by something that happens early in the episode.

But it's classic Russell misdirection with saying something and the characters believing one thing, but we know that it's not what it appears to be.

[13:20]

Can I just say the Darnit crucible?

It always reminds me that it's situated between Altos and Zeos.

Like I just always look at it and I always think that it is the shadows spaceship in the middle of that.

That's what's controlling it.

It's mentalis.

Mentalis is in charge of the Dalek fleet.

Maybe that means that the shadow proclamation is actually the shadows proclamation.

I think as well, talking about Martha.

We've seen throughout this season that she's been a little bit short-changed in kind of the things that she's been given to do.

She's been brought back and then not really rewarded the audience much, and the recurring problem happens here as well, because Martha's brought back as part of the, as part of the team.

But then she has very little connection to the main action and no relationship to speak of with the doctor.

So it's a little bit like when Harry was brought back in the Android invasion.

You've got the familiar face, but they're not doing the things that you want them to do.

She's there in practice, but not spirit.

[14:23]

She kind of rattles around unit HQ spouting generic lines and then goes off into the D plot with the Hagendars key.

And that's it.

But, but she gets to go to Germany and we get to hear Daleks in German.

And then she gets that moment with Rose when she gets to say, oh, he found you.

Is that the lines?

Yeah, I love that line.

And that payoff is just amazing.

It gets my heart every single time when she says that.

And she's the one that sort of is being warm and fuzzy after Rose has been a thoroughly old cow like in the previous episode.

Whereas here, it then gives Rose the impetus to say, oh, she's good or whatever, right?

A change of tune.

Like it's actually quite nice to see that Martha effects rose.

And it's also fixing a problem at the heart of the program in this era, and that is how badly Martha was treated.

And Martha goes, you know, like Martha just says, he found you.

I'm, you know, she's happy for Rose, she's not resentful.

[15:26]

You can see that the character has moved on.

She's over the doctor and that's some that's some character growth.

Something that she wasn't really given in her own season.

It's a it's a nice a nice character B. Yeah, and I mean, Freema's doing everything that she can with it, I think.

It's just, I can't shake the feeling all throughout this season, and especially in this episode, that she's the B team.

She's not given kind of the big scenes with the doctor, which Rose and Donneget.

She shuffled off a little bit, like the spinoffs are, and it's just a little bit of a shame.

I guess the price that you pay for having so many guest characters is that not every one of them gets to do everything.

I do think that Martha's sort of competence and things is really interesting and the way that Donna's criticism of what the doctor has done to Martha gets followed up here.

So remember in the Santarin stratagem, where Donna actually sort of tells the doctor off for the fact that Martha is now a soldier in unit.

[16:35]

And we learn, in fact, that Martha's role is a bit more complicated than that.

But that's at the heart of what's being said here, I think, in this episode.

So you get 2 groups of companions.

You get Martha and then you get Sarah, Jack and Jackie and Mickey, but basically Sarah and Jack, isn't it?

Both come up with a plan.

And their plan is to blow everything up.

And, and, and Donna and the other doctor come up with a plan and what's their plan to kind of rush at Davros with a big gun?

Is it to blow everything up?

Yeah, yeah.

Everybody seems to be blowing everything up.

Davros is blowing everything up.

Sarah Jane's got that emerald crystal thing to blow everything up with.

Martha's going to blow everything up and then they've got the ray gun to blow up.

And also Davros and the Daleks are going to blow everything up.

Hooray.

But so, and so that means that the doctor's companions are more like the Daleks than they are like the doctor.

[17:43]

And remember the doctor's reaction of horror when he discovers what Jack and Sarah and Martha are all intending to do.

But do you think, though, that that's actually, that's also selling the fact that these characters have all experienced the Daleks, or at least the lead characters that are making those decisions, know how much of a threat the Daleks are, and so they are willing to go that far?

Oh yeah, no, sure.

It's a case of they wouldn't do this, but it's this or the universe.

And it helps sell the threat.

Do you know what I mean?

Because, I mean, basically by this point, we're all on the crucible, which is just a couple of sets where we're all standing around talking to one another over video conferences. you know what I mean?

cement factory or something, isn't it?

Another of Ed Thomas's old cement factories.

And all of that's sort of quite fun, but it is a little bit kind of static, I think.

And so there's a lot of sort of word peril. standing around in a cement factory.

[18:49]

Yeah, that's right.

I think this is definitely Russell lampshading what the arc that he's given, a lot of these characters.

But I have to say, I'm not entirely on board with it because really, every character who Russell is introduced has ended up being a bit gun tooting.

So what Davros says, it's an element of self-criticism is actually correct.

You can't imagine in the old series that you would have brought back old companions and suddenly they would be hard bitten kind of gunslingers, you know, Polly or Joe. Exactly.

Dodo would sit on the reality bomb and detonate it by accident after giving everyone syphilis. forgotten that.

But I'm not entirely on board with those trajectories.

I do wonder why it was done.

I mean, Mickey, for instance, at this stage has just morphed into Noel Clark.

There's very little of original Mickey left.

It's now Noel Clark.

There's even that comment about beefcake, isn't there?

When does Jack hug him and say something about it?

[19:49]

Cheesecake beef.

I want to see, I want to see a big finish spinoff series called Smith and Jones with Mickey Smith and Martha Jones.

Yeah, I think it'd be great.

It's clearly where they're heading at the end.

We'll get to that, but I'm amazed they haven't got there yet.

Should I say it 3 times?

I think it's Russell making the episode about something when it doesn't necessarily have to be.

The whole point of this, like we were talking about last week, is that it's event television.

This is Russell overlaying kind of something character on top of it.

And I'm, I, I like that.

That fine.

I'm just not sure we had to end up here.

Except, though, that what is the doctor's solution in contrast to this?

So the doctor's companions come up with will blow up the crucible or will blow up the world or will Russia Davros with a big gun?

And what is the solution to the Daleks in this situation?

And the solution is, and Donna gets to do it, because it's metacrisis Donna, at this point, she gets to run in and she defeats the daleks by making them ridiculous and by being funny.

[21:06]

So she comes out, she's super verbal.

And that thing about, you know, like Donna's a bit dim and can't point out Germany on a map or whatever.

Thank goodness.

Martha was able to point out Germany on map.

Exactly.

And then suddenly Catherine Tate comes out and she is every bit as smart and as verbal as David Tennant.

She is unbelievable at that moment.

It's such a tremendous performance.

And she solves the problem by typing because she's a temp and we learned that she types at 100 words per minute in the last episode.

And so she solves the problem by being incredibly funny and fun to watch and by typing and by making the Daleks go round and round in circles.

Let's make them go this way and they even give her a big knob that she can turn to make the Darlies go one direction or another direction.

And so the solution for Doctor Who isn't, you have a big gun or you have a big bomb or something like that, and that's how you win.

[22:11]

You win by being more fun than the villains, by being smarter and more compelling to watch.

And so, this time, I think for the 1st time, I saw what the point of all that character stuff was.

I thought it was there just to give Tenet the opportunity to pull a pouty face and feel sorry for himself, you know, oh, I'm terrible me.

I'm turning all my companions into weapons.

But in fact, it's about who the doctor is and why he wins.

At the most basic level, and it's perfect.

If everyone's tuning in.

They need to know that that's what the doctor's about.

I do have to say that I think that Julian's performances, Del Bros, in this episode is just extraordinary, and the lines that he gets to say to the doctor, Some of the, the fact that Davros, and this is in the writing, gets to recognise Sarah Jane, like impossible, that face after all these years.

[23:14]

That is just brilliant, and it's such a payoff. for all of us who have known her for this long that she's elevated that status that he actually recognises.

The moment a 1000 fanboys read to reach for the cleanness.

But it's so good, isn't it?

It doesn't ruin anything.

It's appalling and it gets gives both of them a chance to act and it lifts Sarah into a more mythic status.

I mean, she's already the lead of her own program.

She gets to use the Sonic lipstick at one point, you know, but now she's entered into this sort of, you know, she has a relationship with someone who has mythic status, the creator of the Daleks and someone who was involved in the time war and all of that weird time war kind of language, you know, Davros was there.

I think in the old series, companions didn't get mythic status.

They might have been there, sort of important stories, but the series was not about being mythic.

It was just episodic adventures.

Whereas the new series has elevated the doctor to being mythic and elevating Sarah alongside him is very fishing.

[24:20]

It's wonderful.

I was like the fact that Davros is now in a league of villains where he gets to call the companion Ms. Tyler rather than Rose.

That goes a long way.

You know, this story could have been even longer than the 65 minute slot.

There's a lot of cuts.

Yeah.

Like, initially, we had an explanation of how you grow a TARDIS, but, um, you know, the doctor was supposed to give the metacrisis doctor some corals so he could grow his own TARDIS and fly around the alternate universe.

Um, And there was a scene as the TARDIS materialises at the end of it, the episode where Donna hears it and has a moment of of remembrance.

And then, and then, and then sort of forgets and turns around and goes back to a conversation on the phone.

Um, This episode is so full and then, you know, like, but there was so much more that they actually had to trim out of it.

[25:24]

There's there's like maybe 10 minutes of footage that was probably on the cutting room floor.

But for those, I don't mind those ones being cut.

Sometimes I think those things actually help an episode much better.

Going back to Dabros and his performance and what he gets to do.

I mean, the fact that he talks about the doctor's soul being revealed and you take ordinary people and fashion them into weapons, I know you didn't particularly like that, Peter, but I actually think it ties in really well with everything that Russell's tried to do.

And then we get that, how many people have died in your name, flashback sequence, from the new series, like going back to series one.

And it's so affecting.

I think that, again, it's not the sort of thing that you would put up within anything other than a sort of big giant, you know, final finale for the era.

It is a little bit indulgent.

I think it's inexcusable that Adric is not there.

Well, we don't care.

That's really the reason, Catarina.

[26:26]

But it is great to see.

I mean, it is sort of really fun.

So Dave Tennant gets to do 2 roles in this episode.

His normal doctor, his newly regenerated, in love with myself, doctor, and um, the doctor with one heart, who's half human or maybe not, but does go oi, oi, oi, a bit.

What do you think of his performance as the doctor in blue?

David Turner's always been a lesser performance in blue, I'm just putting it out there.

What are you saying about series three?

I like this idea, and I think that it ties into what I said before about the story's doing about the doctor's character.

So just as Donna gets to be very doctor-ish, the doctor gets to be sort of very Donna-ish, and that's sort of reinforcing the idea that they're the same in all sorts of ways, which the season has been doing ever since partners in crime.

[27:30]

And it gives the chance for 2 performers who really like one another and have been working closely together for, what, 9 months or whatever to do their best impersonations to each other.

Yeah, yeah, I think they do it really well.

I think both of them do it like tremendously well.

I think there's a reason why they give the meta crisis doctor, a kind of Eccleston style jumper under his suit.

Um, like, I think that that's sort of, that's sort of clear because what happens, you know, Donna comes out and is making the Dalek spin around and be silly and fun, and then the metacrisis doctor comes and has them all destroyed, you know, gets them all killed.

And our doctor is super angry about that.

He doesn't like that at all and, you know, calls that doctor on, on that and then, you know, ends up exiling him as a result.

He can't be allowed to stay.

[28:31]

But that's the doctor and Tennant will say this later in the episode.

That's the doctor that we 1st met, the doctor who had wiped out all the daleks. who needs a rose to heal him in some ways.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, there's a lot of sort of fun business around those, the 2 doctors sort of thing.

Darlik Khan calls him like the threefold doctor or something.

It's like...

The threefold man, and that's Donna.

The doctor and the metacrisis doctor all get to be the doctor sort of here.

So he's the threefold man.

And so so we get to see the journey that that Doctor Who has been on since the beginning of series one, you know, we back to that doctor.

Yeah.

Makes sense.

And Jack gets a joke.

Yes.

What does he say?

He's distracted or thinking of some improper thoughts about, I can't remember the line of dialogue, but it does sound like he wants to have sex with all 3 of them.

[29:35]

My dreams have all come true.

I personally think it would have been completed if Jack had hit on Dalek Khan.

Can you imagine that little scene?

What do we think of Dalek Khan?

Oh, Dalek Khan's amazing.

I mean, it's a really great vocal performance from Nick Briggs.

And like, I like the conception of it as well.

Like, both Rose and Martha have met Dalek Khan?

Yes.

Yes.

And I think Martha may mention Dalek Khan by name because she knows that Dalek Khan is kind of the only survivor of the cult of Scaro, as far as she's concerned, the only surviving Dalek, I think.

So she knows about him as well.

The doctor says you've met him before.

Yeah, yeah, to Rose.

That's right Yeah.

I like how he can make prophecy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like everybody else can make prophecies as well.

But one thing I did pick up this time is the fact that he fell through like his temporal shift, took him to the time war to get Davros out of that situation, which I never really had picked up on before.

[30:44]

So it was quite interesting.

I love the way Nick delivers that line where he says, I...

It's so fun, isn't it?

And he, I reckon they sell that he can do prophecies because of the weird relationship he's had with time. he's gone into this odd space-time event.

And but then the fact that he flew back into the time war, rescued Davros so he could use Davros to destroy all the Daleks.

Yes.

I have to say that I think about time is right about this.

It is one hell of a baroque plan.

So he rescues Davros.

And Davros then creates 100s of 1000s of Daleks so that Dalek Khan can destroy them all, you know, because they're bad, it does seem like he could have just stopped before step one of that plan.

And back out without saving... right.

And everything would have been fine.

It was just so he could get the last giggle.

[31:49]

Yeah, look, I'm not sure that that revelation quite works.

It was Dalek Khan, who'd realised that we were all bad.

You know, the 2nd cult of Scaro guy just sort of suddenly say, actually, Daleks are not such a great idea.

Without him, we wouldn't have that incredible prop and that amazing puppet and the incredible performance.

And he pre-steals John Hurtz lines from Day with the Doctor.

Yes.

He says no more, doesn't he?

He sees the Daleks and says no more.

And I have to think that Moffat told that because he, I think he loves Russell's Doctor Who.

And that story is a response to Russell's Doctor Who, the day of the Doctor, is very much about how Russell had brought the show back.

Oh yeah, totally.

So I think that's deliberate.

I'm going to, I'm going to believe that anyway.

And it fits still so, because the cult of Scaro were meant to be the thinkers.

And so you had Dalek Sec, who was thinking of one way of progressing the Dalek race.

This is Dalek Khan, who's been through all that, thinking about where is this going to end up and coming to really the only conclusion that he could?

[33:02]

Of course, the image which these episodes of building 2 is all of our favourites standing around the TARDIS console triumphantly.

It's just irresistible.

Um, and I've read criticisms of, you know, how can the TARDIS too, the Earth home and things like that?

And I mean, who cares?

Kill the Moon, I think, is criticised correctly for its ridiculous science, because it's in service to an equally stupid plot, and that's the reason no one likes technobabble.

But here we don't care because the science is dodgy because it's not important.

The emotional payoff is all we care about here.

And that image of everyone triumphantly working together and having a laugh and, you know, basically ending the plot on a positive note is all we need.

No, no, not you, Jackie.

Oh my god, I love that so much. just stay there.

That scene is filled with beauty because you've got Jackie who's laughing about that.

She takes it in good humour and she giggles with the others.

You got Martha looking directly down the camera when she does her thing.

[34:04]

She's inviting the audience in.

It's great.

And and the wonderful thing where um, I think Jack is hugging Sarah, and Donna just pushes Sarah out of the way.

Shot goes in. flying across the console room.

It's so good.

It's Donna's little comment, Jack, I think you're the best.

Yes, you're doing a very good job.

But I just love the fact that it's a new thing to the TARDIS that it's supposed to have all these people operating it to make it fly correctly.

It's just, it's just a lovely new element and and, and in that also, Rose and the doctor get to talk to Gwen Cooper and, and are you from an old Cardiff family, like just a little nugget in there, back to series one?

That's a new adventures reference, isn't it?

I think Gareth Roberts invents the idea that the TARDIS should have more than you should have 6 pilots.

So it had been in the new adventures, but here's what I think is interesting is that set is deliberately huge, when it's 1st introduced, and it's deliberately huge in order to make it clear how lonely the doctor is.

[35:12]

You know, the doctor is by himself in this massive cavernous space and travelling all the way on his own.

And in that scene, that's a response to that idea, isn't it?

The room is now full of people laughing and enjoying themselves, people who love the doctor and who the doctor loves.

They give Sarah that wonderful line.

You know, you act like such a lonely man, but you've got the biggest family in the universe.

It's so good.

I cry for the last 10 minutes of this episode.

Yeah, he hasn't created soldiers.

He's created family.

Yeah.

And all the fireworks are spontaneous fireworks around the world.

And Worth returns to proper police.

And that's the joy, Doctor Who, that humour that...

But yes, the towing, the towing the earth back is perfect.

And it happens for plot and emotional reasons.

They use the magnetron to return the other...

[36:14]

I think they literally call it the magnetron.

They use the magnitron to return the other 26 planets and guess which planet is left.

You know, it has to be Earth so that we can tow it home ourselves.

It's glory.

Is Magatron not the thing that Ian and Barbara came across in the Skaro jungle?

the Magnodon.

No, it's what the time lord is used to move the earth and its entire constellation across the galaxy.

Magnetron?

Yeah.

Just wonderful.

It's such a great scene.

And it's that thing.

There seems to be this sort of constant fear of Doctor Who going too big and being too exciting.

No, you know, we can't have the Tartars towing the earth back into its proper place because that's too much fun and simply too exciting.

And the TARDIS can't do that because even though it's completely made up, I know exactly how it works, you know, like it's it's a terrible instinct, I think.

[37:14]

That's why I'm not Showrunner.

Oh boy.

And then you get all those farewells.

Outside the Tartars, with Sarah, um, And Mickey, saying goodbye to Jackie as well inside, you know?

Yeah. and and the whole Martha, Jack, and Mickey thing.

I just had tears watching it, you know?

Um, I can't, were they all going to be in tortured?

Was that the plan?

Certainly Mickey was, wasn't he, James?

I think they all were in Children of Earth, yeah.

Yeah, there was there was a plan behind that, yeah.

I think it didn't happen because that's when Noel's career really takes off in a huge way.

Like, isn't it?

Like he'd had some success with, um, kidulthood.

And then, and then like he was incredibly busy.

[38:14]

So that's why that didn't happen, I believe.

And does Chibnell poach Martha for Law and Order UK, which is why we get the lowest character in children of Earth?

Like, I think I think Martha would have done that.

So that was that was the idea of that.

But I love that we got a chance to see Mickey and Jackie properly interacting as well because I think this is a thing about this episode, Nathan, you don't see Mickey and Rose at all.

They barely share a line.

It's all Mickey and Jackie.

But that's the important relationships.

Yes, isn't it?

It's so important.

Remember how lost Jackie is without Mickey in Love and Monsters.

Like, obviously, she misses Rose.

Because Rose is away, but she's lost Mickey kind of permanently at that point.

And, you know, she tells Elton about him.

And even the where's Mickey question that Jackie asks at the end of the age of steel when Mickey doesn't come back, and their relationship in aliens of London and World War 3, where they go from this antagonism to being really close.

[39:30]

You know, where where Mickey says to Jackie stopped me, you know, like I won't send these missiles towards Rose and the Doctor, if you stop me, you know, they're there together.

And that relationship, I think, is absolutely underestimated.

The beginning of Christmas invasion, you know, like all of it.

And they share Doctor Who's 1st cliffhanger of the new era together.

And let's not forget, they've come a long way since that entire year when Jackie accused Mickey of murdering Rose.

The fact that he says, I'm going to miss you more than anyone.

Yeah.

And he means Rose.

Yeah.

It's just brilliant.

And then Jackie just gets one of the most fantastic lines, bloody Norway.

So after we drop everyone off, we're in Bad Wolf Bay, right?

And that, for me, like my favourite line from Jackie there is where she calls the doctor a plum because she tricks him into thinking that the baby that she was pregnant with in doomsday, that she named him the doctor.

[40:38]

And then he believes her and then she makes fun of it, which is just wonderful.

You know, that's what Don has been doing all season.

And of course, Jackie can do it.

After he got the upper hand in the Tartars console room, she gets to make fun of him.

You know, he might be good at Tartars consoles, but she's much better at people than he is.

That's true What do we think of that scene?

The final resolution with the Rose and the other doctor?

Billy Piper hated it, didn't she?

Because she'd been lumbered with an inferior, an inferior copy of the doctor.

I mean, saying she hated it, maybe overstating a little bit, but she's definitely on record saying she didn't feel it.

She didn't.

It felt like Rose had had sloppy seconds.

Yeah, but she, um, she felt that it wasn't, it wasn't right for the character.

It was a disservice to the character of Rose and of the doctor and their relationship that, you know, she got palmed off with this broken, sort of 2nd hand, poorly copied version.

[41:47]

We talked earlier in this episode about the fact that Rose does rescue the doctor in some ways like she did with Eccleston back at the beginning of the series.

But it felt to me a little bit, like Rose had had her agency removed, but the doctor sort of deciding what she needed and what was right for her.

Um, almost like sort of Susan, you know, 50 years earlier.

He's very into that this season.

He does it to Donna as well.

We'll get to that.

But I think, you know, like it's not entirely clear.

I guess that Rose and Jackie have to go back to the parallel world, whereas before they were trapped, this time we have a choice, but only for a short period of time.

And they have to go back because that's where Tony and Pete are. where home is now.

Yeah, that's where that's where they live.

So it's not quite, I think the job, I think the problem is the doctor just assuming that it's Rose's job to fix him, you know, that a woman's job is partly to fix a broken man, you know.

[42:53]

And I'm not sure that's all that good.

That's very Moffat conception of a woman's role, isn't it?

Well, I don't know.

I think Moffat's been unfair, James.

I think that Moffatt's ideas about men and women are more complex than that and that he's more likely to critique.

I'm just being a bit, he's more likely to critique that position.

Todd, what do you think about it?

At the time, I was okay.

Like, what are you going to do with this other doctor?

And it was sort of a resolution.

Um, she gets a doctor of sorts and I don't hate it.

I know, particularly love it.

It's a resolution to her character.

What else is her character going to do?

Is she going to reject her mother and that world and stay on this world and travel with the doctor, but she can't because she's off being famous and doing other things.

So, we have to come up with something that's half reasonable.

And, I think it's at least half reasonable and I'm okay with that.

If she does get a doctor who can say that he loves her, even though for some reason...

[43:59]

Because Doctor Who can never say that.

I don't know why we don't show that on screen because that would have been surprising.

I think they sort of shied back.

I mean, there's no way.

There's no other way of reading that whispering into her ear.

So why not just say it?

You know, Yeah, no, I...

And if he'd said it, then it would have really made a clear distinction between the doctor. rather than having to whisper, sweet nothings.

I think it would have been perfect.

In fact, I think it would have sold it. lot more.

Yeah.

I just think that doomsday is so easy to understand.

It's like 2 people who can't be together for whatever reason.

And that's what happens all the time.

Whereas what exactly is going on?

This is just like when you break up with your boyfriend and spend some time apart and then there's an identical version of that boyfriend who comes back and lives with you or something.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's just got no real world analogue. impossible to understand how you would feel about that.

[45:00]

So what do you do with it?

You can understand doomsday but I can't understand these.

It could be like Troy and the 2 Rikers on...

Star Trek, the next generation.

Second chances.

I think it's a problem with Rose coming back.

I mean, obviously Rose had to come back because she's an intrinsic member of the team.

Billy Piper was so popular. totally get that.

But the character story was complete with Doomsday.

And so you've got to bring it back and resolve it in a different way, which doesn't work as well.

No.

It might have been a better idea not to go back to Bad Wolf Bay.

Do you know what I mean?

Just, I don't know. somehow making it more different because it just seems like a slightly weird and overly complex version of the end of doomsday.

And also on a production level, Bad Wolfbade doesn't look nearly as good because last time it was shot in the middle of winter and this time it's shot in the middle of summer.

[46:01]

So is that that could be read in a way as being a positive thing.

You know, like the weather is good because it's a more positive ending for the character.

She's not heartbroken stuck in another universe.

She's in another universe with a copy of the doctor.

Yeah, but also just looks like a beach in Cardiff now.

And so, I guess...

We need to talk about the very end and what happens to Donna.

I'm not on board with the normal reading of this, I think.

I am a lot less negative towards the doctor's actions here than some people are.

See, I think you're wrong.

It's a violation.

He steals her agency and then kills her.

I've not forgiven Russell.

I've still not forgiven Russell.

But he has to for plot reasons.

She is going to die if he doesn't.

[47:02]

That she could choose to die.

And she would have chosen to die.

But you see, I think you do intervene in people's decisions to die.

I think that's precisely what you do.

When someone is choosing to die.

You do intervene in it.

And I also think too, that both the doctor and Donna know what the consequences are.

Do you know what I mean?

Like both of them know what's going to happen.

Both of them know what the doctor can do.

And this isn't a situation where someone more powerful is imposing there. their wishes on someone else because the 2 of them are equal and that's what the whole episode's been about.

Like, I don't want to be in a position where I say she could have fought back. if she didn't want it to happen.

Um, because that's that's bad.

There's actually in one of those deleted scenes, there is actually a line, it's really on the nose line where she says, like the doctor, the doctor and Donna travelling through the universe together forever as equals, and that's what he needs, an equal.

[48:16]

I think that it's more complex than that, and I don't think that what the doctor does is obviously wrong.

Because he doesn't want to do it.

He doesn't do it for his own satisfaction.

He doesn't do it because he's going to benefit from it.

He does it for her.

Um, and I think, you know, that that in a situation where someone is, I don't know, it's complicated and I guess it's meant to be complicated.

I don't think it's obviously wrong.

I think you intervene when someone is trying to kill themselves ordinarily.

He's doing it to save her pain.

She she knows what the situation is and she knows that this is the only recourse, otherwise she'll die, but it's too painful to take that step because she knows what she's going to lose.

So, it's euthanasia.

Yeah, but that's different, I think.

That is different.

And we don't think of euthanasia as acceptable in every circumstance.

Do you know what I mean?

[49:16]

And we certainly wouldn't want someone who was suffering from depression to rock up to dignitas and get themselves off.

You know, like it's not, it's, it's just not 100% clear that the doctor's doing something terribly wrong.

But then we see the consequences of it.

And the consequences of it are so brutal to watch. so painful.

Oh, and the way that Sylvia and Wolf react, Sylvia does not forgive him.

She tells him to get out. twice.

Yeah, you've killed my daughter.

You know, like, and Will says, she doesn't say that, but Will says she was better when she was with you.

And there's this whole sort of, I mean, the character is dead.

She's dead.

Well, no, she isn't though.

I think that's wrong because she's there.

She's alive and breathing.

She's the same Donna that we 1st met.

And remember that that donor isn't that terrible.

[50:17]

And that's, you know, the choice that the script makes in order to play up the doctor's loss and Donna's loss is to make her super trivial.

Like she's having these sort of dumb phone conversations and stuff like that.

And we see her just ignoring the doctor and that's super painful to watch as well.

But she's alive.

And just because Dalek Khan says that one of the faithful companions will die.

Well, that was kind of a fake out and he's a Dalek.

We can't trust him.

That's right, and characters don't exist in limbo, just because she is regressed, being regressed to the point she was in Runaway Bride doesn't mean that she's now not going to go on and learn and become a better person and have a better Sylvia and a more kind of understanding wolf, you know, of what she's been through to kind of guide her and influence her.

And we'll see when she comes back in the end of time, that she is a less trivial, less boisterous version of herself.

She has developed.

She just hasn't developed in necessarily the way that we saw and enjoyed.

[51:19]

We'll get that to that in about 6 months time.

And I agree with you, Peter.

I think, although we have the loss of this character, and there is really no choice to be made, um, There's the potential that she can grow and she can learn and she can become a better person, may not be the same person that she ended up being with the doctor, but there is that potential there.

I mean, it's absolutely heartbreaking and very affecting and, and, you know, as it was happening, like, I always think back to my reaction to Janie and Zoe at the end of, um, the war games, and in particular, not to lessen Zoe's time with the doctor, but in particular, Janie, who has come, his growth has been amazing.

He will never remember Victoria, probably the closest relationship he had with anybody, and as a child, as a teenager, whenever that was one of the most affecting things ever.

Like for me, I was so just totally and utterly devastated by that and the same feeling with this year.

[52:25]

And yet as an adult, you think about Jamie.

You think, yes, that's terribly sad, but you also think he had that capacity to grow, and he had that capacity to care, and you just know that he's going to go on and have a different, but equally fulfilling life because that's who he is.

Or gets killed on a battlefield.

No.

The doctor saved him.

But I love the fact that both through this awful event, Sylvia has grown and will grow and her character will change and she will be a better mother and a better daughter.

And Wolf is always as he was even more so with more heart.

And if that's a positive out of takeout of this, then that's what I take out of it.

And I'm so glad, James, that in 6 months' time we get to see Donna, again, and we can see some sort of positive rather than just being left at this point where, you know, for her anyway.

It's it's not a good place.

At this point, remember that we were going to have a scene where Donna heard the Tartar steam materialise and she sort of recognises it or seems to be struggling to remember what it is or something, but then dismisses it.

[53:35]

And I think they discuss it on the commentary.

It might be Julian Russell on the commentary for this story.

And I remember thinking at the time that would have been so much better.

I would have been so much happier if we'd had that scene.

But their instinct is right because it cheats, it undercuts the real loss, I think.

You're looking for consolation and you don't want it.

Agreed.

I think, I think, with, you know, like, I mean, this is all, it's all made up.

You can make your own rules.

I mean, I agree that, you know, what he does to her saves her life and she can grow and become a different person.

I don't disagree with that.

But it's a made up story.

I just want Catherine Tate to travel through time and space with the doctor forever.

Like that.

Didn't they not, didn't they not even ask her about doing another season?

[54:38]

They just assumed that she didn't want to come back or something like that?

What, like with the Christmas special?

It was the fact that they were going onto the specials, yeah.

But, but you see, the reason that it hits us so hard is it's imagine if you didn't know about the doctor.

Imagine, you know, if you had to stop travelling, you know, like, I'm coming to your place, James, and I am, um, I'm going to firebomb your Doctor Who DVD collection, uh, and you'll never...

And you'll never, ever...

You'll never be able to watch Doctor Who ever again.

And that's what it is.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like for us, you know, the journey that we've had travelling with a doctor ever since we were 10 or whatever that's been so important to us that we've loved so much and we've derived so much pleasure from.

And Donna gets kicked out of that and doesn't even remember it.

And so for us, it's the worst conceivable thing that could happen to anyone.

[55:42]

But she actually manages still to live a full rich and satisfying life in spite of that.

It goes back to what we were saying last week about this being an immersive audience experience.

He invites the audience in because it does make you reflect on the fact that Doctor is such a big part of our lives and your social networks and whatever, that without it, it would just be an emptier and sorrier existence, and that's what poor Donner is consigned to.

All right, it's time for picks of the week. and I'm going to start with you, James.

Well, my pick of the week this week is the fabulous series 3 Sarah Jane Adventure story, the wedding of Sarah Jane Smith.

Oh, I love, I love the Sarah Chain Adventures.

I possibly more than the show it evolved out of.

It's just so joyous and I wish I had been a child when it was broadcast.

[56:43]

I was, you know, 20 years too old.

Um, at the time, but it's just fantastic.

You get tenant coming back, sort of, as, you know, in a victory lap to stop her making a terrible decision.

Um, Nigel Havers is her, her fiance.

It's just fantastic.

And, you know, you get you the annual evil plot by the trickster.

Um, and it's got Zenya Merton, um, Pingcho from Marco Polo in it.

It's fantastic.

Todd, your face.

Was that your choice, Todd?

No, my choice was stolen.

By the episode, I will listen to of FTE this morning when I was walking around, so I can't recommend Avenue 5 enough.

So somebody else, please come up with another pick while I scramble around here to find something.

Okay.

Peter.

So my pick of the week is the UK US co-production of War of the Worlds, which has just come out, not to be confused with the Pete Harness 3-part version, which was set contemporary to the novel, but a new version.

[57:53]

It's like 8 or 10 episodes, um, and it's set in the current day.

And I think it's quite fitting because we've just seen a war of the world since the stolen earthen journey's end.

Um, It's a bit of a slow burn, so it's not for you if you're looking for action and adventure, but, um, It's got a lot of atmosphere.

It's got sort of interesting aliens that aren't really what you'd expect them to be, and it also stars in one of the leading roles, Thai Tennant, who is the son of David Tennant and Georgia Moffat.

So there we go.

All wrapped up.

Well, my pick of the week. is the Netflix series Tiger King.

Because it always ends in a cliffhanger, and you can just recast it with everybody from Doctor Who, and, you know, there's a lot of people with really bad teeth.

So, you know, um, The big book of British smiles.

Billy Piper, you know, you can she could be Carol, and you can cast whoever else you want in any of the other roles.

[58:53]

I'm only 3 episodes in, but the cliffhangers are wonderful.

Yes, it was huge old Tiger King, I think.

And I really liked it.

And I want, I want to thank you, Todd, for taking it a little bit highbrow after our previous choices.

So my one is one from childhood and I don't know if I've recommended this ever before.

But I'm in a sort of kind of mood where I'm not keen to challenge myself with anything new.

And so I've been reading these books and they are children's books, essentially, by Finnish author Tova Jansen, who died in 2001.

It's a series of 9 books.

They're the movement books, and they were written from sort of 1945 to 1970.

And they're about little trolls that sort of live in Finland, and they have a sort of family and stuff like that.

[59:55]

There's a TV show that James is thinking of right now, I think.

Yeah, no, they just made a new adaptation of it. sort of Jennifer Saunders and Matt Berry and all sorts of really fun people.

I really adore them.

They're sort of whimsical and sort of sweet, but they were kind of my introduction to literary fiction.

So the very early ones are all about sort of escaping from floods and comets and magic and sort of strange things.

But later books become very introspective and nothing very much happens, but characters all sort of sit around sort of agonising about things.

And even as a child, I thought that those were superior and more interesting than the more adventurous ones.

But now I recognise that that is actually my introduction to sort of literary fiction.

So they're intellectual wambles.

Maybe.

Maybe.

I was going to say, Nathan, with introspective trolls.

It's a surprise you don't like the Bleak 7 episode animals.

[1:01:22]

Well, that's all we have time for this week.

We'll be back next week to clean up the mess we've made over the last 13 weeks with our Series 4 retrospective.

In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flight for Entirety on Facebook, at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody Interterra.

Until next time, if a skinny man with sideburns tries to touch on the face, you have our permission to slap him.

It's for your own protection.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

Bye-bye.

See you soon.

That was Flight 3 Entirety, starting Todd, B, B, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and James Selwood.

Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg.

This episode, why he wins, was recorded on the 13th of April 2020, and released on the 7th of June.

[1:02:24]

Well, with one more episode until the end of our series 4 coverage, it's time to thank all the lovely people who joined us on the sofa this series.

Eric Stadnick, Adam Richard, Max Gelbart, Johnny Spandrel, Josh Snares, and Joe Lidstar.

I think we finished it there, do you think?

Well, what about Will saying goodbye?

Have we got anything to say about that, though?

Well, I mean, he looks up at the sky, you know, I look up the sky and I think of you and I think, again, it breaks your heart and then even with the doctor and the TARDIS looking around, it's not like this comedy ending that we've had the last 3 years where he goes, what, what, what, or whatever.

Because they cut that out.

Yeah, yeah.

It's got to be cyber.

Well, they filmed it, but they cut it.

Yeah, which might pell Ben convinced Russell not to include, and it was the right instinct.

Again, it goes back to these choices that they make, these cuts. are actually the right decision.

And then you get him come back and be his companion for 2 episodes at the end of his tenure. getting Bernard Crippens as a Doctor Who companion, again, after like, what, 40 something years is amazing.

[1:03:37]

And Russell has said that there's a version of the end of time in his head where Donna would have played a much larger role.

And I remember hearing about that and thinking, why couldn't we have had that?

I wanted more Donna.

But actually, the fact that she's a bit of a supporting character in that and she's not playing an integral role underscores the loss that we feel here.

You do get more of her and that's nice, but it doesn't undo anything that's here.

And just a final word on Catherine Tate as well.

Strangely, I didn't truly get, until I was rewatching this episode, how much of a star that she is.

She carries important scenes like the TARDIS destruction and, you know, the whole climax aboard the Dalek ship.

You only need her in shot.

She's all you watch.

She's a star.

So Doctor Who had 2 genuine leads this series.

And I think the only time that's ever happened is maybe Tom Baker and Elizabeth Slaton, maybe, and William Hartnell and William Russell.

I don't think Gogtu has ever had co-leads before.

And that's what she brought to the show.

What do you say about Jacqueline Hill?

[1:04:39]

No.

Leeds, William Martin William Russell.

Yeah.

Much as I love Jackie.

Alright, that could be the tag, actually.

Because I do like to go out on the, on the, um, Meaningful state.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Feel free to cut any of my blood.

No, no, I feel free to cut everyone's body. not going to be this episode at all.

No way.

You needed to, they needed to be the counterpoint about the, about the thing.

Do you know what I mean?

There needed to be that needed to be said, I think.

Let's do pics of the week.

All right, it's time for picks of the week. and I'm going to start with you, Jane.