Dalek Caan Saves the Day

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast that for one shining moment was the most important podcast in the whole wide universe. It was sometime in episode eight, I think. I'm Nathan. I'm James. I'm Peter. And I'm Todd. Well, we've just been through what might be the most extraordinary 13 week period in Doctor Who history. More celebrities, more guest stars, more Daleks, and more drowning fish than the show has ever seen before. How do we feel about it all now that we've reached the end? Let's find out in our series 4 retrospective. Welcome to the retrospective. I've got three broad topics for us to choose from. We've got series 4, Partners in Crime, and my brand new game, House Party, turn left, or turn right. So let's start with series 4. And here's my 1st question. One, two, three, or four. I definitely want to say four. And I feel bad saying this, and I have said it on the podcast before. I think series one is something incredibly special. Like, it's really amazing. But every year, I think they get better. They know what works and what doesn't. They're increasing in confidence. They're generally getting better at making the show. And so my order is literally one, two, three, four, uh, only the other way round, 4321, I think 4 is the best one, uh, and one is merely magnificent. But it's not as good as the other ones. Nathan, I'm going to agree with you broadly, but in a slightly different order. I think 4 is amazing because they just have this exuberance and this kind of this carefree confidence which comes with the fact that they know how to make this show and so it frees them up. They freeze them up creatively. Um, I actually think series one is probably second. I think series one has that very special thing where they don't know what they're doing and that frees them up creatively. So it would be 4 in one and then the others, which are very good. But 4 is clearly the best, I think. James? I think I agree totally with you, Nathan. It's it's 4321. For me, like 4 is top. Then down to one. Um, one is fresh and new and exciting. And 2 is a difficult 2nd child. 2nd child, 2nd child. I'm a 2nd child. 2 is a difficult 2nd album. Um, 3 is flawed, but has Freema in it, but 4 is just gorgeous. It's, you know, it's, everybody's firing on full, like full cylinders, um, Tenant and Tate are just wonderful together. And It's that culmination of, of, the 4 years of this new show and all these sort of threads that, um, that Russell had kind of pulled together over, over that time. It's, it's, oh, I love series four. I think, you know, series 4 and series 10 of the new series for me are the pinnacle of new Doctor Who. I don't think they can be bettered. James, I would agree. Wow, okay. Yes. Well, I'm going to get some hate mail in a moment. So I'm going to go 4312 and I'll just sleep it like that. I think that's a pretty good order. I think that, you know, Peter's right that one has the advantage of not knowing if it's going to succeed or not. And so it's super careful about making sure that it has an appeal to a broad audience, whereas 2 is a little bit smug about its own success, much like the Doctor and Rose actually in that whole season. It is. Yeah, but I mean, I do think sort of technically there's all sorts of things going on in 2 that they hadn't had the ambition or ability to do in one. So that's why it kind of edges it out for me, but it is very close. Do you think that the show is perhaps relying too much on monsters from the past, like every season, it's like the Daleks, or the Cyberman or the Master, or Davros and the Daleks this year. And then we've got all of this continuity stuff at the end of the season, which I think is brilliant. But one of the biggest criticisms of the show, the original series back in the 80s, the show was really eating itself with continuity. If there's one thing I'm going to say about Russell at this point in time is that, you know, absolutely fantastic with the family orientation of the show with the families is introduced. But if there's one thing, it's sort of like, I kind of go, We're relying on all these nostalgic things from the past. Is that a problem? Except that I think that they're relying on you being one of the sort of 8 to 10000000 people who've been watching this show. Do you know what I mean? It's not a niche thing to refer back to something that happened in series one. And what Russell has done, and we've said this before, that he reintroduces the most important things about Doctor Who, the Daleks, the cybermen, the master. He reintroduces them all in order so that they can be enjoyed by a new generation of fans. And I do think, you know, for instance, one of the reasons that the reaction to series 11 was a bit muted was that it didn't do that. It went too far in the other direction. I have no sympathy for people who complain that the RTD series finales are too big and they have too many Daleks in them and they're too exciting and they really just need to be scaled back a bit. And they were too popular. That's it. And Nathan, I think Russell had the right instinct where he wanted to jettison the canon. But that doesn't mean you always had to jettison the cannon. I think after 4 years, very popular series that the public was clearly invested in, it's right and good to refer back to its own canon. He's created a new history for the show, um, and a more recent history for the show, and that's fine. We love that. Although, you know, some people don't. I think friend of the podcast and contributor to the podcast, Simon Moore might disagree with us there. Yes, indeed. But I think it adds the texture of this season is just enriched by the mining of that recent history and bringing all of those threads together and it just is such a payoff, you know, in the last 3 episodes and turn left, which is one of my all-time favourite Doctor Who stories. It's a really difficult thing, given the show's premise to create a world, because we're somewhere different every week. And so how do you create a Doctor Who that takes place in a coherent universe? And I don't think you do it by, you know, having a cyberman story that references all the previous cyberman stories. I think you do it by having a group of people that the doctor knows and that have been affected by the doctor and who he loves and who love him. And I think the show never did this before, possibly, you know, the Pertoy era is a little bit like that. and it never does it again. One of the things that I will miss when Stephen Moffat takes over is not having a brilliant writer as a showrunner because we get that, but not having a Doctor Who, that takes place in a world that, that cohere is. You remember, when I 1st started watching Doctor Who in the 70s, it always struck me that no one ever remembered the previous story you know, and that was, that was, there was that 30 seconds at the start of time flight. Well, no, that's when it changes though, isn't it? It changes with season 18. And I think the reason, one of the reasons that we love season 18 is it takes place in a coherent world. Bitmeat creates a world for it to take place in, and that's wonderful and magical after so many years where, you know, everyone would be sort of have their memory wiped every 4 weeks. And Russell does this literally better than anyone else who's ever run the show. absolutely right. It's not magical though, Nathan. It's science. It's science. Of course it is. I think series 4's success can be measured by the fact that it's very difficult to see where a Russell series 5 would have gone. It's hard to see how it could have been bettered or the stakes could have been raised. It just is a perfect culmination of his era. Well, look at Moffatt, who, for the following year's season finale has 5 people in a Dalek wandering around a museum. You know, the stakes are still high. still huge and interesting and and amazing, but he just can't do a giant kind of worldwide alien invasion anymore. Speaking of this series, like, okay, series four. We've talked about themes in the other series. Is there a theme underlying theme to this series or is it just what we've just talked about bringing all of this world together in one cohesive sort of to one cohesive point and celebrating that? Or is there something that you see in this series otherwise? Is it the value of friendship family? I think that Johnny got it right in our silence in the library episode, where he said that the thing that happens this season is kind of exposing the doctor to new challenges and things that he hasn't experienced before. So giving him a daughter, giving him a wife, you know, putting him on the back foot in midnight, you know, killing him off in turn left, like things are bigger and more interesting, the things that he faces. I'm not sure that's a theme, but I do think it's a thing that characterises this season. I don't think there is a noticeable themed series 4 except for celebration. It's a celebration of everything that the series has achieved and all that the characters have achieved. and so it's celebration kind of on and offscreen. But compared to something like series 3, which I think did have definite character themes. It may be that it's a little bit more on the shallow side, but not very much. Fair enough, James, anything to comment? I think that's the thing. It doesn't have themes. It has themes, I think. It has, you know, I don't think they're character themes though. I think they're, uh, They're more sort of plot threads or ideas or concepts that that kind of get woven through it. Like it's, it's, it's more, it's more, um, it's more plot, like plot ideas that like keep popping up. You know, the, the planets disappearing, the, like the Dr. Donna the, you know, like, I don't think that has an overarching theme no. I think it goes to show that the whole sort of season arc thing is actually much less important than they thought it was going to be in a way that doesn't matter. It was a sort of artificial way of trying to create continuity within a season. But, you know, I think the only one that's really interesting or important is the series 3 arc. But series 4 still coheres around a world because the characters remember what's happened to them and meet people that they've met before. And, you know, we dismissed the Santaran Tupada. But is it the 1st proper time where the doctor's gone back with a previous companion and the current companion and had both of them in a story together, the sort of thing that we always kind of, you know, fantasised might be possible, but never really properly happened before, 2 doctors maybe. But that's something that you can only do when you've made a world for the doctor to live in. What about school reunion? Ah, yeah. I think it kind of underscores the success of the 2 doctors actually, in that that's joyous, seeing JD and Perry hanging around together and Perry matched up with the 2nd doctrine, that whereas the Santaran, 2 part of just to put the boot in once again slightly misses that opportunity for the fun by separating Martha from the doctor and Donna. Yeah. All right, let's get our next category, sort of partners in crime and our partners in crime are Martha Jones and Rose Tyler. Oh my god, he found you. But it's continuing on what we've just been talking about in that you've got both of these other companions with the current companions at some point in the season and seeing those relationships and even they have their moments together. Um, It's just interesting having them in like 2 or 3 episodes with um, Donna. Like, it would be like having Sarah Jane with Joe Grant in a story or it is Shaw coming in with Joe Grant for a story. And I look, I love I love that interplay between Rose and Martha when they finally meet and, you know, after the journey that Martha's gone through in series 3 where, you know, she's in love with the doctor, she's heartbroken, she's really damaged by that. And to show that how far that character has come. that her response is joy. Like when she sees Rose in in the series finale. She says, oh my gosh, he found you. And she actually, she's happy about that. You can't imagine that happening 12 months ago. It brings a tear, like it brings a tear to my eye and makes me glad that's not much. She goes, oh, you bitch, you know? You were the one that caused me... Which is actually what Rose does in stolen Earth. screening going who the hell are you? I have a similar thing with Donna saying to the doctor, you know Rose is coming back. That's good, isn't it? And then Donna's reaction. when she sees Rose coming down the street towards them. Like she gets, she notices her before the doctor does. And it's so beautiful. It's so wonderful. And so many people were irritated by the relationship between the doctor and Rose, particularly in the series too, and to have both Martha and Donna eventually affirm it, is wonderful, just great. And also, we haven't been kind to what was done with Martha this season. She hasn't been particularly well catered for compared to when she was regular. But it really shows the fact that Martha of all of the modern companions is the most fully formed person. She's not someone who needed to be fixed by the doctor. She was able to kind of walk away on her own terms and everything. So when she comes back, there's no feelings of melancholy or longing or jealousy. She just reacts as a normal person would react. She's like, you were really missing this person. They've returned unhappy for you. Great observation, Peter. All right, well, I think on that note, it's time for our 1st house party. The companions. So it's a very easy game. left or right, yes or no. So here we go. Donna or Martha? Oh, it's such a terrible, terrible choice. I want both of them. Can I make it for you? Absolutely God. Yeah, okay. But it is what you said. Martha is like a real person. And she is terribly thoughtful and likeable. I think Donna is funnier and, you know, terribly self-assured and things. But it would be wrenching to go into that house party room and leave Martha behind. That's okay. James, just choose one. Donna or Martha quickly. On top of your head. This is rapid fire. Yes, this is rapid fire. I choose Catherine Tate because I'd just like to have a chat with her. Okay, Martha or Rose? Martha. Martha. Martha. Rose or Sarah Jane? Sarah Jane. Sarah Jane. Sarah Jane. Captain Jack or River Song? River song. Yep, river song. Dodo. Harriet Jones or France Dean Jones. Oh, my friends. Yes. Harriet. Harriet. I love Anjo, but I love Harriet Jones, and I still haven't forgiven Russell for killing her off. Or having her drop through a trapdoor and onto a motorbike and escape the Daleks. That is cannon. It is canon. Wilf or Sylvia? Oh, Wilf, because Sylvia's actually not a very nice person. Even though I adore her and could watch her all day. So if, if, if you're saying, should I watch an episode with Will for Sylvia in it, Sylvia, but if I have to spend a lot of time on a massive video chat with someone, definitely Will. Has to be Sabernan. I'm going to go for the Gestalt entity, Wilvia. Mickey or Jackie? Oh, come on. Jackie. Jackie. Jackie. And finally for this round of the companion. So half of them are going in one room and half of them going in the other. The Dr. Donna or Dr. 2? Oh, the Dr. Donna. Absolutely. Yep. She types it a 100 words a minute, Todd. She's so good. Very good. Excellent. All right. Well, speaking of the Dr. Donna. I'm going to go back to partners in crime in series 4 and let's talk about David Tennant, Catherine Tate, or the doctor and Donna. I think Donna is very good for the 10th doctor. I think she points out his foibles and undermines his grandstanding a little bit, and that's exactly what we needed. Um, I also think that because Catherine is such a big personality. She puts David's performance in perspective, whereas David previously looked like he was very big compared to the more subdued performances of Freema and Billy. I totally agree with that. I think so too. I also think too, that, you know, I mean, the show is how, or has been up till that point, um, for a lot of its run, you know, an older man and a younger woman. And the younger woman is kind of a bit sort of naive and has, you know, the doctor gets to boss her around and she gets in trouble for wandering off and all of that sort of thing. And it's nice not having that. having someone who's actually slightly older than the doctor and certainly as self-assured as the doctor. Look, I agree with your point that, Nathan, it's one. also one of the reasons why I say, you know, Evelyn Smythe and the 6 doctor work quite well, because it's more of an equal sort of pairing. There's a sort of acerbic, um, slightly catty interaction that they have, but you know that they love each other. I think that's pretty interesting because it's made explicit on screen in that very underrated episode, The Fires of Pompeii, where Donna says, I don't know about these kids you've been hanging around with, but I'm not one of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really good. And I agree. It is a lot like Evelyn Smythe, because remember the 6 doctor can be a bit of a bully, and, you know, like he makes Perry carry his fishing gear all over the place and stuff. You know. So great. But Evelyn just wouldn't tolerate that. And it's the same with the tenth doctor. He's big and kind of a little bit self-involved. And so having someone come along and call him a prawn or a plum or a, you know, a dumbo all the time is actually really wonderful. She's the medicine he needed. Yeah, and I agree with everything that you're saying and I've said it before having a comic in that role just adds to how the whole thing is performed and she just, she's just wonderful. She is my favourite of these 3 companions. And, and, and I think David, like, we go on about his ticks and certain things, but I really do think, I really enjoy him in the moment. Most of 95% of the time, or 99% of the time, he just, he's very effortless, I kind of think. There's never any idea with David that he's not delivering a good performance. He's always working 110% on screen. It's just a question of whether what he's doing particularly appeals to you or not, but I agree with Todd. I think he delivers 99.5% of the time. And then there's another couple of things, but it's like with any doctor, it's relative, isn't it? You don't dislike any of them, and if you're asked to order them it's very difficult because they're all brilliant. I think, too, that even though Tenet isn't my favourite new series doctor. I am happy that he's the one that everyone remembers because I do think it's a conception of the doctor, a look, a style of interacting, all of that sort of stuff, which is magical, just incredible. And, you know, like I think I like Moffatt's doctors better, but I don't know. I think he spends so much time kind of working out his own anxiety is about masculinity and stuff, you know, through those doctors. It's a little bit nicer to have someone a little bit more sort of self-confident. He sort of creates an archetype, doesn't he? And it's interesting, I think, that regardless of how good the others are, Matt Smith, Matt Smith's doctor adheres to that archetype, and I would say is the most broadly successful next to David's. Yeah, yeah. So, obviously, besides Dr. and Donna, we have another 2 partners in crime that are part of this season. Nat is Wilfred Mott and Sylvia Noble. I think that they are amazing. And, um, so I do point it out quite a lot that last season we just didn't quite get enough of Martha's family to really warm to them in quite the same way, uh, that we did with Rose and and Jackie and Mickey uh, and maybe Peace a bit. But here, those 2, like they're both older, sort of veteran actors they're both incredibly strong, and the relationship between them is great. Like the way that Sylvia bosses him around and the way that he sort of resents it, but accepts it, you know, she sends him out out the back to do some stargazing to get him out of the house, she won't let him have a webcam. You know, she absolutely... She absolutely bosses him around. But then the times where she goes to him for comfort. There's just maybe 2 scenes in the series where he's reassuring her and he calls her my little girl and all of that is so moving when she's so prickly and so, so kind of unhappy and unlikeable and just having her want to be comforted by Will, humanises her enormously. I think Wolf is an incredible score. Like, it's tragic circumstances that lead to his casting, but he's amazingly great. Well, it's the same kind of alchemy where they got Catherine involved. They brought in Catherine for a one-off and then were lucky enough to get her in a regular role. They brought in Bernard Crippen's for a one off, and then the situation dictated. They went back to him and they lock enough to get him in for a regular role. So it was just alchemy. But it's also lucky enough that then their chemistry between both of them is just absolutely incredible. And the warmth of his character and the joy in his character is, is one of the things that I ideally love about this season. And I think with Sylvia, it is actually interesting going back to say, actually, what a cow she actually is a lot of the time. I didn't realise how actually unlikeable she, she actually is as a person, but you see these moments of warmth, like with her, uh both with, um, Wolf and with her and with Donna. And, and perhaps in that, in the last scenes of the season with the doctor, when she says like she's my daughter, and you should be leaving now, there's just that you just know that she's a changed person, and she's going to do better, and, and that combined with the turnlift episode where you actually see her at the depths of despair, and what she can deliver, as an actress which is just extraordinary. I wish there was another episode with her. You know, that's what I wish. And she's a flawed person, which is interesting. She's got a public face and a private face. And so you see it when she's out on the town with her girls in partners in crime. She's all bubbly and upbeat and sort of the life of the party and clearly happy to be with them. Yet when she's with her family, sort of that slips and she just sort of slides into a pattern of kind of low-key abusing them. But, you know, there are a lot of people like that. She's a fairly rounded person. Look, I tend to agree with you on that. I think the beauty of the, that, triptych, Is that the right word? Um, the beauty of that triptych of uh, of characters is probably one of the reasons why uh, why big finish keeps coming back to them. They, you know, they've had a number of box sets they've done with that cars. Not with Bernard as well. Bernard came in the most recent one, but you can see that they love series 4 so much and they love the fact that they can get those actors to appear in their in their audiobooks. They keep going back to that well. They've recently done a new box set, which is just Donna and her family. Um, basically without the 10th doctor. Oh, wow, it's turn left. He's not dead. And bringing in Nicky Audley from the Catherine Tate show. And they keep working with Jackie King. They keep bringing her back for everything. They, like, she is one of their regular cast members. Like, in bit parts in, you know, I think they did a, they did an adaptation of the book of the Wizard of Oz, and she played the Wicked Witch or them. Wonderful. Look, I, yeah, no, they are some of the best cast members of the of the revived series. They're just brilliant. Well, speaking of happy couples, it's now time for house party to happy couples. I'm going to love some of these. All right. Colonel Mace or Captain Price. I have no idea who the 2nd one is. The one that kisses him. Oh, God, I still have no idea who it is. Wonderful lovers from the 2nd part of the Santara and there would have been more sexual chemistry if they'd had 2 Muppets kissing each other. And believe me, I've seen that. She's to think that he's gay and that she's she's unrequitedly in love with him. No, he's gay and she's an alien. Let pay attention. We've answered the question. Let's move on. Val or Biff Kane? Oh, they're both so horrible. But I have to say that I really like Val. She is so, so horrible. And there's that moment where she appeals to Jethro, you know, come and be a horrible daily mail reader like us, you know, surely you're going to be on our side. That family is unbelievably, unbelievably gross and awful, and even that the dad joke about the pool being, what is it? Is it's a concept or something? Like it's so poor. Like, you know, in his goatee, like, I just hate the whole thing. I would have to go for Val as well because she's played by someone who lit up EastEnders for a decade. Oh, wow. James? Neither of them. Fair enough. I'm going to go with Dow because at 1st she'll love you. Then she'll hate you, then she'll deny hating you and try and convince you. She'll try and throw you out of an airlock. That bit at the end, isn't it, where she kind of denies having done anything. She denies any wrongdoing. She can't bring herself to kind of even mentally accept what they've done. She's she's horrible. Gosh, that story is good. And she is also the character which that plot hinges on because she is the 1st one who the doctor's doing his whole. You've all got to listen to me and I'm in charge, and I'm going to save you, and she's the one who turns on him 1st and it's a real shock. Hmm, okay. All right. Corn on the cob. General Cobb. Or Luke Ratican. Oh, Luke. Ryan Sampson. Because I love his Twitter. Oh, is he on Twitter? Yes, yeah, yeah. No, um, somebody recently, maybe in the last year, um, tried to some homophobic bastard tried to get him to engage in conversation about something, and he posted a picture of him and his boyfriend. He's like, yeah, yeah, you're not going to you're not going to get my support in that, mate. It was just it was just so sweet. And again, you know, I can't divorce that character from that actor because, like, the character is terrible, but the actor is one of the best comic actors in Britain at the moment. Do you know, Peter was very full throated in his defence of Luke? What are you saying, Nathan? And I think that you won me over, Peter, actually. I think that you're right. I mean, he is a sort of Sarah Jane character. You know, we spent a lot of time saying, why is he even in this episode, but you kind of said that he was doing a good job of the material that he was given. Yeah, I'd have to go with Luke every time because I think Ryan is handed a poison chalice and actually makes something of it. Very true. I do agree with that Yes. All right, here's my next happy couple. Oh yes, here we go. Horrible. Oh, I can't even say his name. What's his name? Lucius Paxtris Dexter. There you go. Nope, no. No, Nathan, say it, please. So, so Lucius Petrist extras. Or who? Parabile. Do you want bad teeth or bad skin? your choice. He has a like incorrect Latin name, and I spent a lot of time being very cross about all the incorrect Latin names in Fires of Pompeii. He is fabulously revolting, I think, and is in everything that he's in. I think I saw a picture of him. He's doing something at the moment. I've seen a recent picture of him. I can't remember what he's currently doing, but he is, he's kind of gross, sort of physically, and, you know, there's a lot of spittle, sort of around his mouth and stuff when he delivers his lines. So he's perfect, I think. So he's coming into your house party. on everything. Well, you know, like I just don't want to priestess at my party frankly. He was also in the 2005 BBC adaptation of Bleak House, and he had a catchphrase where he was like sitting in his chair, and everything he said, he'd then go shake me up, Judy, and his poor old minion would have to like shake him in his chair to sort of loosen his bones. Well, we mentioned that he was the devil in the final series of being human. And he was super, super gross and horrible in that. He does seem to be typecast, doesn't he? He does indeed. Given all that, I'd take Mrs. Pyrovile. All right. I think I choose handmade number three, a.k.a. Karen Gillen. doing her posh accent. Agatha Christie or Lobus Caicillius. Oh, it has to be Agatha Christie. I mean, I really like, you know, Cabaldi. There'll be plenty of time for Capaldi house parties, I imagine, in future seasons. But I have always loved Fenella Woolgar. There's a kind of terrible adaptation by Stephen Fry, of one of my favourite novels in the whole world, vile bodies by Evelyn Waugh. And she is in that. It's called Bright Young Things, the Fry Film Version. And it's much, much more sentimental than the war novel, which is why I hate it, because the war novel is so horrible. and so unsentimental. And she plays Agatha Runcible, and she is so incredibly funny in it. So I've loved her forever. And I think she's fantastic in Unicorn and the Wasp, both with Donna and with the doctor. She's really great. And also Agatha Roncible. I mean, haven't we missed out on that unicorn in the wasp and deadly assassin crossover. We didn't know we needed. That's making a bitch. The unicorn? Or the wasp. The wasp. Oh, the unicorn. Oh, do you think? So the unicorn is, of course, Star Wars's Felicity Jones. Oh, no, lovey can't say I do. And I love that hilarious cockney accent she suddenly starts to put on. That's her normal accent because she's a villain. Are you doing the accent? But, um, yeah, like the wasp, I guess, is sort of reasonably good looking and stuff, but a bit wet and, you know, likely to the end. Well, yes. and likely to sort of beat you to death. Yeah, yeah. Or hit you with a pipe. I think I'd have to go for the wasp over the unicorn because how do you want someone to respond? Do you want to say something and have someone go, how funny? What do you want to have them go? Every time. Peter, you're great with these these effects. Okay, so we've got, I could just say... And who's the other one that you do? That's the fish. Hello, I'm a hat. Here's my final happy couple. Health or safety? I'll be healthy, be safety. All right. This has sort of opened up to, we've been talking about, I think, a lot of guest stars, this season. Who are your most memorable or favourite performers in this series as guest stars? I mean, I obviously am going to say that Sky Sylvestri and her performance, what's the actress's name? Leslie Sharp. Leslie Sharp's performance at Sky Sylvester, I think, is one of the standouts for me this season. Yeah. I adore that. I don't think I would have gone to her first, but I think you're right. But there's so many to choose from. isn't there? River song. I mean, that's a guest performance. And you have to say that Alex Kingston is great in that performance. Let's help forget Miss Foster. She was on my list as well. There's a lot of really strong female guest stars in this in this season. Yeah, I want to say Marisa Magumbo who is incredible in turn left. I think she's wonderful and I'm so glad they bring her back. She's great. And in Unicorn and the Wasp, 2 female leads for Nella Woolgar and our favourite. Felicity Jones. Oh, Felicity Kendall. Correct. Felicity Kendall, the wrong Felicity. Yeah. Christopher Benjamin is wonderful in that too, and he's still alive. It's so gorgeous. General Cobb. Well naturally. What about Julian Beach's Davros? Is that one that you'd say there's a standout? Um, I think he is the best Davros. Fight me. I honestly think he does a better job than Michael Wisher. And I think that he does that partly because he's able to build on Michael Wisher and partly because he just has a vastly, vastly better mask that enables him to do more acting. And I think he nails it. I think he absolutely nails that performance. So, I mean, he sort of is a bit sort of hanging around in a basement kind of saying things to people. He doesn't get to do much sort of plot stuff. I love how they lampshade that though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, even when he comes back in Capaldi, I mean, the only reason he comes back is that Moffatt wants to sit him and Capaldi in a room and have them talk. So he doesn't get quite as much to do as Michael wishes Davros, but he is every bit as good, I think. Yeah. Is there anybody else that you would think stands out at all? I think Colin Morgan shows a lot of early promise in midnight. It's no coincidence that he went basically straight from that episode into Merlin. And I think maybe Capaldi, you know, I think... Showing early promise, Peter Capaldi. Go to years in his career. It's funny, isn't it? Because he must have thought, maybe we made this point at the time but he must have thought, oh, I'm finally in Doctor Who. I'm sort of done without sort of realising that he was the commander Maxwell all along and that he was going to get to have his own go at the role. And he is sort of funny and marvellous, I think. It's a bit of a, you know, it's it's not John Frobisher in Children of Earth. Like, it's not a massive part. There's not a lot of depth to it. But, you know, that scene at the very end, where he is just visibly heartbroken about what's happened to his hometown. It's that's beautiful. That's an extraordinary performance, I think. And he gets the pitch of that episode. Exactly right, doesn't he? I think it's interesting that when I start thinking about this, I always think of all the female guest stars in this season, probably 1st before the male. Um, And that's not to say that the guys aren't doing a great job. Patrick Trout and Son. I think also does a wonderful job. Yeah. Christopher Ryan? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. I think it is in all as general style. He really does do a great job in that. I mean, I think... getting hit by that ball in the back of the probic bed is one of my favourite, funniest scenes of the entire season. But it's time for another house party and we're going for the female edition. So get ready. Here we go. Stacy Campbell or Suzette Chambers? Oh, I love Suzette. I have to say, um, Stacy is incredible, and we do talk about that in our partners in crime episode. She's so good and it's so terrific that she's lost weight and so she's going to dump her boyfriend. I think that's so awesome. She can do better. She's a, she is a really, really, really rustly character and a really well drawn one. But I think Suzette is this season's Neres or Annelise, I think. One and done. But she does keep getting mentioned. She does get mentioned from time to time. Jenny or Penny? Jenny. Can I, can I not have a headache? Solana Mercurio or Trinity Wells? Trinity Wells. Every time. Solana is so good though. She's so good in that episode. It's such a good part. And she just does it so perfectly. I think you pointed this out, Todd, in the episode where you kind of think this is the moment where she turns and joins the doctor's side and she doesn't. She doesn't do it. And she becomes, you know, she was always sort of dodgy and horribly corporate and all of that sort of thing, but she just genuinely becomes horrifically evil after that. And her death is so satisfying and she absolutely deserves it. It's a really, really, you know, well-performed and well-written part, I think. Miss Foster or Miss Evangelista? Oh, Miss Foster every time. Yes. You know, we spent a lot of time in our silence in the library episode talking about Miss Evangelista, and I do think that she is pretty great, and that scene with her dying is unbelievable. There's just something about a face I don't like. Which one? Okay, Sky Sylvestri or the hostess? The hostess. Because she saves the day. They're both so good That is a great performance, which, I mean, I wanted to bring that up because you look at Sky, you look at Val but that performance and you never find out her name is, it's so affecting, you know, and just the motions that she goes through at the beginning, like she's just going through the motions, like, oh yes, like you would if you were on a plane and they just automatically do their automatic talk to the passengers. It's sort of like, does she, is she just sort of like hollow and it's dead inside? you know? Um, But then she's really scared, isn't she? And then really brave. Like, she's amazing. It is, it's a bit of a thankless role, maybe, or something. It's a role that could have been thrown away and she really, really inhabits it. She's wonderful. I mean, the Sky Sylvestry performance is so virtuoso and such an amazing, just technically amazing performance. But yeah, the hostess is really something. And a moment of appreciation for midnight there because it's just people trapped in a room. It lives and dies by the quality of those characters and Russell just creates this incredible ensemble. Yeah. Yeah, it's a play, isn't it? You know, it's it's absolutely a play or a short story or something. It's it's so good. It's so good. Okay, the Fortune Teller? Well, the Spanish made. They're both brilliant. James? The fortune teller and the Spanish maid sounds like some sort of Agatha Christie novel, doesn't it? One of them points at you and the other one does a wonderful accent saying, oh, you've got red hair or something. Chan, that fortune teller though. I love the Spanish mate. I'm sure I read this somewhere, but someone makes the point that she just thinks that if she says the thing repeatedly in Spanish to people that they'll eventually understand her. But it's such a multi-layered performance as well because there's not only the pointing. There's also the scowling. She can point and scowl at the same time. Double threat. And finally, the shadow architect or the great architect. Oh, I don't like that shadow architect. Or the great architect, actually. He's kind of terrible too. Okay, moving on. The stories of this season. I mean I always talk about the best and the worst. Where does the season fit for you? I find, maybe I'll start with talking about this, is that my top 3 are midnight turn left. and the stolen earth. And they sit right at the top of this season. But then I've got these other tiers. I've got the 3 Martha episodes, which I think are the weakest, but that's only by default really. I mean, they're not totally awful. Um, you've got you're beginning three, the past, present, and future, which I think are the strongest three, of the 4 series, um as a group, which I said weeks ago that I give all 9 out of 10 to. And then I've got this other level that are almost at that same level, which is the unicorn and the wasp, the library episodes. And the final episode of the season, which fits somewhere, but, you know, around that as well. There's just so many strong episodes. I've said lots of times that I think the last 7 episodes of this season are the best run of episodes that Doctor Who has ever had. And I think Unicorn and the Wasp makes it in there because it's just such good comedy and just so well made. And they're all different from one another, which is what you want from Doctor Who. And they're all incredibly strong. And like, I think silence in the library and Forest of the Dead are Moffatt's best contribution to the RTD era. I like them better. Oh maybe that's ridiculous. I think I like them as much as I like blink. They're very different. They're trying to do things that are very different, but I think they're so strong and so interesting. And so for me, I would put all of those seven, you know, at a very top level. I think the 1st 3 are great, and I agree with you, Todd, I think that the Martha ones are weakest, and I think I like the doctor's daughter a bit less than you do. I would say that's the weakest of the season. Before I get to the others. It's interesting you picked up on the Stephen Moffatt, because one of my other questions was Stephen Moffatt, Russell T. Davies. And for me, this is the 1st season where I actually do not consider the Stephen Moffat episodes to be vying for any of the top 3 or number one positions. In fact, they are so they are so far down the list. In fact, they fall after the 3 Martha episodes, they are the next 2 that I would put in the season. Everything else for me is above. It's a bubble shot games. I guess at the time when I watched them, it was like the moment that Cal appeared. It was like, oh, this is all like a fake reality sort of world. And I guess I was looking for all the Moffat ticks in an episode for the 1st time and like I was counting people and waiting for the jump scares. So, although I thought they were good, I just, I don't know there's just episodes that I enjoy so much more in this season, and not to say that they're bad, they are really solid episodes, and in other seasons, they would be up there, but it's the 1st series where the Russell scripts are the ones that I prefer, which is which I find interesting, you know? Told on, totally agree with you on that. I think, even though, objectively, I think they are very good episodes, I don't warm to them at all. And I think it may be the 1st time that you see the parts moving. You see the way that Stephen is assembled this script to be clever. And for that reason, I think it appeals to a lot of people, but I just don't quite get it. I mean, I like the Russell scripts more, like I think Midnight and Turn left are better than Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead, but I love I love those. See, I've always liked Russell's writing more than Stevens, even though, you know, technically Steven's stories are brilliant. Blink is amazing. His his season one, 2 parter is fantastic. But I've always preferred the way that Russell approaches storytelling. I think it's interesting. I mean, yeah, no, like, I think those 2 episodes in series 4 are very strong. But I think they are a dry run for his version of Doctor Who. Like, you can see all of the story tricks, you know, that's him you know, he's developed this over the last 4 years of working on the show, and you can see that this is this is what he's going to do over and over and over again when he's running the show. Yeah. I think there's sort of diminishing returns. You know, like I'd like the Moffatt era less than I like RTDs era but I like them off era a lot, but I do think it sort of flops more frequently than Russell's does. But I think that that's because he's more ambitious than Russell is. Russell makes the same series, you know, 4 times and it's a great series and I adore it. But, um, and I also think Russell has a clear idea of what the show is than Moffatt does. And so that's why I think he's more successful, but I do think that, and again, we say this in the silence in the library episode that Moffat loves Russell's Doctor Who. That's very, very clear. So he does a really good job of writing Russell Lera stories. And I think that silence in the library and Forrest of the Dead is where he does his best job of writing an RTD era story. It's less of an event and less of a standout than blink. But I just think it's really good and really properly solid. Hard to argue with any of that. Yeah, totally. I just think it's an interesting discussion to have, considering where his stories are placed in, you know, with fans over the years in these 1st 4 series and how we all like different aspects of Russell's writing at different times, but it's the 1st time where, for me, Russell has outdone, Stephen, I'm going toe to toe which is, I think, which I, which right now when I'm looking at your, I'm actually smiling about, because, you know, this is his show and, and, and that's great. All right, I'm going to agree with you. I know this will make you happy. Midnight, turn left, stolen earth, obviously, the height of the season, I think. But I would also say that the 2 comedy episodes, Partners in Crime and the Unicorn and the Wasp, just hit it out of the park. They're so funny and light. But then at the other end of the scale, I think you have really maybe one of the very few flops of the RTD era, which is the doctor's daughter, which I sort of think of as most likely Doctor Who candidates for defenestration since that Dalek in resurrection. So, I could cheerfully eject that one. Have I had my favourites? I don't think I have. Um, I think you're all wrong. And it's the, uh, it's the Santaran 2-parter. No. I think my favourite, my my favourite Doctor Who story of Russell's era is probably turn left. Just because it's, It's so perfect in its darkness and it's, The the performances in that story are just amazing. I mean, it's heartbreaking. And it takes, you know, the the events of, you know, this season and the and, you know, the major events for the last 4 years. Or at least the last, you know, 2.5 years and turns on its head and shows how dark the world would be without this character helping people. James, I totally agree with you. And like I've seen other series try to do the same thing. whether it be fantasy or general US series and I don't think this can be better. Like I really, you know, I just think it is just that good. And it packs such a one to punch with midnight, where one of them knocks the stuffing out of the doctor and then the next one knocks the stuffing out of Donna, and by the end of it, you're just gasping for breath. It's amazing. We didn't say this when we were talking about Donna, but it's the only time where they do a double banked episode where they hang it entirely on the companion. You know, they get someone else in to be the lead in series three. They get someone else in to be the lead in series too. Um, you know, they, they don't hang it on Billy or Freema. They hang it on someone else entirely. And now you've got someone who you are absolutely delighted to watch an entire episode centred on them for the very 1st time. I would watch an entire series of that. You can listen to it at Big Finish. Of course you can. Okay, we're going to do another house party. Obviously coming up, 2 things you've got to think about, the Jenny Laird Award, and the Bonnie Langford, for most startling discovery. Remember we started that last series. But let's go into our next house party, which is a combination of a mixed pot pourri of different things. So here, location, location, and the enemy within. All right. Ood brain or the ood brain. I'll have one for an entrée and one for a main. All right, thank you. The planet Messaline or a planet called Midnight. Sorry, was that the planet Vaseline? Midnight. It's got a nice pool. All right. Project indigo or the subway network? Oh, subway for work every time. Yep, yep. Right. Although, Project Indigo does take you immediately to go and visit Francine, so it does have does have that going for it. Amazing. And then to see German Daleks. And also the subwave network keeps rose off it, so you know. Oh, the reality bomb or the Osterhagen key. The earth's gone key. I love the reality bomb because it's a bomb that blows up reality you know, like I just think it is the best bit of techno babble in Doctor Who history. It does exactly what it says on the team. Most bombs, if they're big enough would sort of blow up reality. But all of reality for the Hagen does keep it only if it's salted caramel. Okay. Martha's unformed clone or the Trickster's Beetle. The tricks is Beetle because you can wear it as a backpack. Yep, yep. Excellent. Atmos or Google Maps? Oh, I think I think Atmos is probably a little bit more respectful of your privacy. Yeah, less evil. I'm going to go for COVID safe. Dr. Moon or the Lost Moon of Poosh. Well, Dr. Moon because he's just so gorgeous. Yeah, hot. He's terrific. And just today. It was revealed in the radio times, and I'll put this in the show notes, that Dr. Moon was a future version of the doctor who has died and uploaded himself to a computer so that he can look after River song when she gets uploaded to the computer. So, uh, that's Canon. It's a multidoctor story. Both Stephen and Russell verify that that's what they were thinking about. Are you kidding me? Nope, absolutely. Well, they were thinking that Chipnell has introduced a 1000 new doctors. Why don't we introduce another one as well? Okay. Sorry, I'm just taking a moment. All right. Well, this is for Nathan. Miss Foster's henchman number one or Miss Foster's henchman number two. There is one of them that I really like. There's one who's got sort of more of a shaved head and stuff and is a little bit more sort of blocky and I like him. I'm going to say poke no los dos. I'll go for another Miss Foster employee, call centre guy. Oh yeah. Okay. Davros or Dalek Khan? Uh, Dafros. I think you can have a better conversation with Dav Ross. Though Dalek Khan saves the day in the end, really. What an idiot. It's a very convoluted plan. My theory is the Dalek Khan is played by Terry Malloy because Dalek Khan and Terry Malloy's Davros both have a nice line in gurgling laughter. The Santarian stratagem? Or the Santarian experiment? Oh, experiment every time. I actually think that sometime experiment isn't very good, and it's certainly horrible. Who was I having this conversation with? I can't remember. I was talking to someone online. But we were sort of saying that the problem with Santaran experiment is that Liz Sladen's acting is too good. And so it's too horrifying, much too horrifying. And so in a way, Santarin strategy being a sort of light, silly early season, RTD 2 parter, even though it has a lot of problems is a bit less relentless than, you know, Santarin experimented half the length. I prefer this on taran experiment, South African agenda, to the Santaran stratagems, Polish agenda. Um, and finally, Helen Rayner or Douglas McKinnon? Oh dear. Helen Rayner. She brought us some Daleks in Manhattan, and there are some good scenes in that Santara 2 parter. James. Anything? Your face. That is a really terrible choice. neither. Neither. Perfectly acceptable. We're now up to 2 of our major awards. Then Jenny Laird Award are nominations and the Bonnie Langford, the most startling discovery. Who would like to start? I'll do it, Jenny. And can I say Ed Thomas for the doctor's daughter? That terrible, terrible decision to set it in lots of old theatres and stuff for no readily apparent reason. It's baffling and terrible. I would like to add to that with my Jenny Laird Award nomination Nathan. I think that was a terrible decision. And then I think casting general cobblers and putting him in those locations was a doubly terrible decision. General cob loaf. Look, I think I have to agree. That story could have been really quite interesting, given the right setting and and some, you know, better creative choices. Well, I'm agreeing with you on all of everything that you've just said. So we're all on the same page with this one. It seems that, you know, everything has coalesced so that just that one, there's that one not bright spark, but the one black hole of Tartarus in this season. So there's not so much, there's not so much nominations. We've all nominated the same. So the award games too. Any aspect of that story. Oh, and that's nothing against Georgia. I think Georgia is actually the one shining light in that story. She's a good actress. given a terrible story. agree with you. And look, I mean, you can you can kind of see why they got married because they had chemistry. Like, you can, like, you can kind of see the beginnings of that relationship. Like, and now look what, they have 5 children, for God's sake. Can you pinpoint the exact moment between studio days when they consummated their relationship for the 1st time? Please edit that out. With an extra twinkle, there's an extra twinkle in the eye. I think it was the day after she did the backflips. There was something that lit up... Um, scripture. I was otherwise known as Kevin Bernard, has said those are not backflips. There you go. The Bonnie Langford. I'm giving it to RTD. You know, I just, like maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Maybe he's not, he doesn't quite fit the category, but every year it's got better and better, and this year, in Doctor Who, and particularly in the finale, he manages to bring together an entire world that constitutes 4 series of Doctor Who and 2 spinoff shows and just make something absolutely unforgettable out of it. So he gets my Bonnie Langford. Can I please give to Bonnie Langford? Why not? Why not? I don't know between 2 Bonnies Langford? Bonnie Langford, exactly. Mel in her time in the Rani outfit and Mel in her Paradise Towers out. I would also build on what Nathan's saying there. I would give it to Russell specifically for midnight, because I think it's just, An indication of the talent that we had in Russell, where they had a script, which apparently was a perfectly serviceable script called Century House, which, for whatever reason, was ditched at the last minute, and Russell said, I've got an idea, I'll write you something, and in no time at all, produced the amazing concept and drama of midnight. And as you said earlier, Nathan. It's a stage play, and it's a really damn good stage play. So I think you've just got to give him all of the kudos for not only being able to turn out brilliant things, but being able to do them at the drop of the hat. And also I would give my other Bonnie Langford to the character development that Donna had in the Fires of Pompeii, which takes an already brilliant character and gives her really wonderful depth and emotional wallop. And those last 5 minutes of Pompeii entirely rest on Donna's reaction to what's happening. And it's just brilliant. I mean, hats off to you, Russell. You absolutely know what you're doing. My Bunny Langford Award is also for Russell, but for for nagging Jane Tranter, for years and years every time he met her to let him make Doctor Who, because otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. What's yours, Todd? I'm not going to nominate Russell, although I think it's done absolute brilliant work this year. There's 2 startling discoveries for me this year. One is Graham Harper. Because I just think he puts an incredible performance as incredible performance. He does incredible job as a director on so many episodes, but in Unicorn and the Wasp, he's absolutely absolutely brilliant and he's not having to rescue things or do like explosions with fire or have guns toting. And but he does that in so well in so many other episodes, but that's just, I was amazed at how many episodes he actually directed and the variation, just absolutely underscoring this season. And sort of combined with that is Planet of the Oud, which is the story for me that just sort of went from, oh, yeah, that's okay to like this is a 9 out of 10, which I just did not expect. It's so close to what Doctor Who should be about. You know, it's so good. Before we move on to wrap up, is there anything else that you'd like to say about this season, in terms of any performances or anything that we may have forgotten, um, I had the adipose. That was the other thing. I love the adipose. If there's one if there's one creation this year that, you know, I actually have an adipose, I don't buy, I don't buy like all this Doctor Who merchandise stuff, but I do have my little friend, my little adipose here with me today, right? My God, Todd, watch out. It might attack you. You've already got the CSO kitchen. It's got a fang. I would say that very rarely is something at its most popular when it's at its best. Um, and Doctor Who manages it this season. It manages to be the most popular. It's ever been with the general public, and on the back of being maybe the best it has ever been. That's so unlikely. Yeah, I'm actually going to miss Russell. I'm looking forward to going through the Moffat era. I mean, we've got a few specials and stuff later on this year to do, but I am really looking forward to doing the Moffat era because it's not something that I've necessarily revisited. I've got a high opinion of it. think there are a lot of good things there. But for me, this is my Doctor Who, absolutely without question. This whole era has been magnificent. And we'll have the chance to express all these sentiments again in the David Tennant retrospective, I think, but let's just say it now because this is his last full series and we just didn't deserve him. Absolutely. I always talk about, you know, what we go into next, what's your feeling before we actually see the things, and the next thing is the specials. Do you have any comments to make about the specials at all before we see them? Where are you at with them? I haven't rewatched them for the podcast, so I haven't sort of seen them for a while. I'm a little bit iffy about them, I think. They're mostly disposable for me. In a lot of ways, I wish that Dalek had killed David in episode... Well, maybe not David. Well, you know. Not because, like, I wanted the character to leave, but in some ways, like, this, the final 2 part of this season is, is... Perf- it's a perfect end to the show. In some ways, having that character, you know, save the universe with his friends and then regenerate would have would for me have been a better end than what we got. And look, not to say anything against the specials. The specials are enjoyable, but they're, it feels like they've been tacked on at the end because they had to buy another year for um, Moffatt to get up to speed with with his version of the show. I think specials are not a great way of doing Doctor Who, and that's part of the problem. The Doctor Who is something that has to happen every week and has to be different from week to week. And so, yeah, unless it's Christmas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get to talk about that at the end of the next, well, at the end of the specials, really. And, you know, for me, they're up and down and all over the place and this would have been a great final. Well, you know, I think they actually suffer from the loss of production momentum. I think that regardless of how exhausted Russell and Julie and Phil and everyone else was as they sort of barrelled through 3 full-time seasons. There's kind of a creative synergy that comes from that where they just keep on being brilliant because they're naturally creative people. I think the moment that they take their foot off the accelerator. Everything kind of collapses a little bit and they have to try very hard to wind it back up into those specials. Well, here we are at the end of series 4. I was going to do one more house party, but they get that one final time. It's Snog, marry, avoid. Hooray. Zog, Mary, avoid. So James, I'm starting with you. Snog, Mario, void. Friends of the Oud, the household gods. The people visiting midnight in the car in that band thing with the doctor. I would avoid the people on the bus in midnight. Good choice. Because they're terrible people. They're just a bunch of... A bus floating between us. Yes, yes, yes, I have. So I'd avoid them. I would marry friends of the Eude, because they have good politics and seem to be decent people, and... Oh, stock of the household gods. Well, well, that's a threesome, David, Catherine Day. Okay. That's not, yeah. All right. Thank you. Peter. Yes. Quintus. Davenport, Ross Jenkins. Good grief. That's the argument for bigamy that we've been waiting for. I mean, wow. All right, so I would definitely Snog Ross because he's not a particularly great actor, so I'm not sure you'd want him around all of the time, but he'd be very good for snogging. Um, I would um, avoid Davenport, unless he was bringing me a sidecar cocktail and I would marry, um, I would marry Quintus because I think marrying into that family would be great and you'd have Peter Capaldi as your father-in-law. There you go. Wow. Okay. And Nathan, Snog Mario Void. Theme park historicals, the doctor's daughter, the massacre. Which are you going to avoid? Well, I'll avoid the massacre for reasons that are now well rehearsed and well understood. Legion. I would probably I would marry the doctor's daughter, but I would obviously cheat on that story with celebrity historicals. So that would be the one that I would snog. That'd be great. Can you imagine married to the doctor's daughter sitting in that car bickering until the end of your life and just pining away for being with Unicorn and the Wasp? Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this series. So, we'll be having a few weeks' well earned break before returning for Christmas in July with the next doctor. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook add FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, Flightthrough Entirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts Bondfinger, and Jody into Terra. Until next time, every night when it gets dark and the stars come out, we'll look up at the sky and think of you. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. Midnight. See you soon. That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley Peter Griffith, St. James Selwood. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane Orberg. This episode, Dalek Khan saves the day, was recorded on the 3rd of May 2020 and released on the 14th of June. Fans of Snogmarrier Void will be delighted to learn that the only correct response this series would be to snob Dr. Moon to marry Dr Moon and to avoid not snogging or marrying Dr. Moon. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. Midnight. At midnight. See you soon. Brilliant. The 2 of you said good night at midnight at the same time. No, because you're on different tracks. I can fix it. You can just cut this number, make it sound like idiot. You can save it in post. More like idiot than I usually do. It's I notice I avoided Snorg Mario boy. I'm being charged, so I am. That was very cool of you giving me so many hotties. Who are you? No, you snog them. Marry them and then avoid them all at once. Well, in succession, I would think. That's my grinder technique, as we well know. Polyamorous. Todd, that was fantastic. That was so great. Can I ask everyone to stop? Yep. In the name of love.