Alfie

[00:36]

Hello, Delister, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's a bit out of practice, but has certainly had some wonderful feedback.

I'm Nathan.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Joe. And I'm Jack.

Well, it's the night before the doctor's certain death, and so who else would he spend his last few hours with but James Corden?

We all learn a valuable lesson about fatherhood.

We have a bit of a dance, and it's all as funny and thought provoking as usual.

Time to say goodbye, doctor.

It's closing time.

So, I have a feeling that we did this one before together earlier this year.

[01:38]

This is just a remake of the lodger, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, if you really like the lodge of the 1st time and really laughed at the jokes, you'll get a, I guess, a warm chuckle out of this, depending on, depending on how hard you love the 1st time.

So we could make a list of the things that are the same, okay?

So we have people going missing, being lured to their death by aliens for some secret purpose.

Yep, and those aliens also are scraping by to survive.

They're on their last legs.

We had a spaceship above a house and this time we've got a spaceship below a shop.

We have James Corden's character, has to take on an exciting new role, a new responsibility that he is tentative about and he solves the alien invasion plot by wholeheartedly accepting that new responsibility.

[02:45]

There's a technological lure that is bringing human beings into an environment where they are stripped down for parts for a machine.

The doctor is better at everything than James Corden.

And love sodding, conquers all.

Yeah, yeah, in both of them.

In this abundance of repeats that closing time does with shtick that the lodger did, one of the saddest casualties is one of the lodger's great successes, which is the character of Sophie, who I think is...

Seriously missing.

Or as Nathan, as Nathan calls her, the next 14th doctor.

Unfortunately, she was working full time on a stage play.

She was asked to appear in the whole episode before scripting even began, but yeah, she could only give them 2 days of filming.

But it's nice to know that, even though the whole thing, of course, is let's get James Corden back with Matt Smith, they're like, well, the episode wouldn't have been so good without Daisy Haggard as well, is Daisy available?

[03:50]

Oh, unfortunately she isn't, but we can, we can still have her in the story.

Yeah.

And, you know, she does get some really lovely lines where she's like, actually, I've labelled all the food and, you know, arrows.

Yeah, arrows, you know, it's again, it's an obvious setup, but when she comes back and the house is immaculate.

It is really quite a lovely little scene.

I really lamented in the lodger that there was that icky kissy scene between James Corden, Daisy Haggard at the end, but nothing could have prepared me for the butt clenching moment where I thought that Matt Smith and James Corder were going to kiss as they beamed into the Simonman's lair.

That was a terrifying moment, you know.

No, I don't want to see it.

It's my favourite example of queer baiting in Doctor Who.

Well, okay, I have a question then.

Why are we watching a pale imitation of the lodger as we head into the finale of season 6?

[04:54]

Series 6?

Sorry.

Well, like, I'm not super convinced it's a pale imitation of the lodger.

It's not as fresh as the lodger, which was one of the things that the lodger had going for it.

And Matt doesn't get naked in it.

So there's that as well.

But um, I think it's here for the same reason that the lodger is here.

It's just a nice little character moment before we get into the sort of giant events of the series finale.

I also think the reason that we have Craig in particular is that earlier this series in Let's Kill Hitler and also Last Week in the God Complex, it's kind of been made clear by those 2 stories that for the 11th doctor, the emotion he associates the most with his companions going right the way back to Rose is guilt.

You know, he feels guilty for how Rose ended up and what happened to Martha's family, what happened to Donna, and he drops off Amy and Rory last week because he is afraid for them.

[05:55]

So Craig is really the last person he has to check in on.

And it's like, it's like he is just turning up to sort of go, okay, you're all right.

I did something right.

Because he could we put those 2 together and then the last time we saw them, there was a crack appearing on their wall.

Yeah.

And if it did swallow them, presumably that was undone by the finale.

So the doctor, he's kind of just popping in to kind of go, oh, well, look, I did something right.

And I think in that opening scene, because, you know, we have mentioned the saminess of a lot of closing time.

One of the things I think in the beginning it does well is that, obviously, the setup is, as we've mentioned, more or less the same as the lodger with people being lured in.

We kind of drop in on Sophie and Craig's relationship at a point where Craig is in a moment of personal jeopardy.

[06:56]

The difference being, as opposed to telling her, I love you.

I can take care of the baby by myself.

And it is, you know, when the doctor knocks on the door and goes, hello, Craig, I'm back.

It's literally shot in exactly the same way.

But, um, uh, one of the reasons why I think, at least initially, that kind of works is because Craig has, you know, gone through the lodger, so he picks up on the saminess of the situation.

So where it's, you know, when he's walking around the kitchen table, it was like, no, no, no, I have nightmares about that face.

And also, it wasn't lost on the production team because throughout most of filming, this script didn't actually have a title.

It was untitled on the copies that were given to the actors, like it was just episode 12, because the writer had trouble coming up with a title, and unofficially it was referred to as the Lodger 2.

And also carry on lodging.

They should have gone with that.

[07:57]

I would have been an excellent time.

And the original pitch, however, was 3 cybermen and a baby.

Dear, that's so bad.

To be fair, I don't think they strayed very far from that bitch.

No, no.

I mean, what sort of happened was the original function of the side men in the plot, which we'll get back to later, was somewhat different, and there were only 3 side men, whereas in the ship, in closing time, there are 6.

And by that point, they kind of went, okay, well, you know, if you call it 6 cybermen and a baby, it gets further away from the title you're pasticing and it won't really work.

So they had to come up with something else.

The other potential title for this at a late stage was everything must go.

Ah, that's good as well.

So, yeah, everything must go on closing time. were both suggested by Clayton Hickman and closing time is the title, but one out.

Is this the 1st season where there isn't a 2 part finale at the end of the season?

That is correct.

Yes.

[08:58]

So this is the quietest penultimate episode that we've had because all of the other seasons.

There's always been a massive like, you know, momentum building game changer as the penultimate episode.

That does make this season stand out a bit.

I'm not sure in an entirely positive way.

I think I would actually, um, because Joe and I rewatched uh, the entirety of series 7 quite recently and the penultimate episode of part one of series 7 A was The Power of Three, which is quite standalone from Angels Take Manhattan, but it does end with that kind of grim sort of pronouncement with um, Brian kind of going, bring them back alive.

And you kind of get that here as well with the storyline hook into the Wedding of River song.

But, um, yeah, I think you're right. about later as well, because that felt completely bolted onto this episode.

I thought in quite an intrusive way, but that last scene.

[09:58]

Surprise, surprise, Joe, it was.

It was not part of the original script and it was added by Stephen Moffatt.

Well, we talked about this in the lodger, though, didn't we?

We said in the lodger that there was the scene with Amy at the ring at the end of the episode. had nothing to do with the episode as a whole.

So let's talk about the sort of things that happen in the episode before the 2 part finale.

Because if you think about, let's say, turn left in series 4, that ends with a massive reveal about what's happening going into the finale.

The previous year was utopia, okay, which is nearly the 1st part of a three-part story.

But we hadn't had that approach before.

And I think that this is in Boomtown territory.

It's a quieter, smaller scale story that is about just the regulars.

[10:59]

And there are no regulars at this point, really, apart from the doctor.

And I mean, the reason it's called closing time is not just because it's set in a shop, but because the doctor is going to his death.

This is his last adventure before he goes and is killed on Lake Salencio.

Is he though?

going to his death?

Yeah.

I think he is absolutely killed in the Impossible Astronaut.

That's the doctor.

Canton is telling the truth, and the doctor is originally killed there.

And the doctor clearly thinks that.

He hasn't come up with a way out of it yet.

And we see him at the end of the episode collecting the Stetson and the blue envelopes that appear in the Impossible Astronaut.

So he's going straight from here to Utah in order to get killed and he already knows that's happening because of Amy admitting it to the real doctor and because of the files he got from the test selector, I think.

[12:00]

And I think one of the things I would add on top of that is, and I think this is partly what distinguishes it as a lead in to the finale, is that I think in previous series finales, the way they work is it's kind of the doctor being pulled into a new story, which is the story of the finale.

Whereas the difference here, it's the doctor resigning himself and walking into the story of the finale, which in this case has been the story literally from episode one, which is the doctor dies.

And this is kind of slightly well trodden material because we did have this same thing in the specials, I think.

The doctor is aware that something is coming for him and that he will knock 4 times and that he's going to die.

So we've already seen the doctor facing certain death.

And I have to say that I like how Matt does it.

[13:02]

There are some sort of sad moments.

There's one thing where Craig says to him, you always win and you always survive and he sort of smiles a little ruefully and says those were the days.

Even when he sort of puts his head against the wall of the Tartars at the very beginning and says, I'm done saving them.

I'm not going to do this anymore.

I think that Matt facing certain death does a better job of it than David Tennant does.

It's all just a lot less overwrought, I think.

Oh, a massive drama queen, so I think maybe too...

It's just far too subtle and nuanced to me, I'm afraid.

And you mentioned that bit where, and it's played very comedically when the doctor is just doing the doctory thing of noticing just about every discrepancy and every possible alien intervention that could be going on and him going, oh, no, no.

He does a scan.

Oh, no.

[14:02]

And then Banks's head on the door and says, I'm going away now.

Hard cut to the doctor not going away now. which is, which is, admittedly, that is kind of my comedic Achilles heel.

It is a very obvious gag, but it did get me very good.

Speaking of parallels in other episodes, so in the Big Bang at the wedding, you know, when the doctor says I'm only at the wedding for the dancing, who ends up dancing with are all the kids and showing them a very silly dads?

And then as soon as the doctor is going to interfere.

We cut to him showing kids expensive toys and say, go get money from your parents.

They're just going to spend it on something boring like lambs.

Actually, this is a bit overpriced anyway.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, great.

I love him there.

And yappy, yappy the robot dog, and you've got Matt Padding, yappy like this.

And later on when he picks up the Cyberman.

He patsed it exactly the same way.

Yeah, he likes steps out of the house in the morning and he's like caressing it. like a little cat. it's so cute.

[15:21]

One of the things with this story that I think kind of makes it such a success, in some respects, is the fact that James Corden and Matt Smith works so well as a comedic duo.

And I, you know, that is pretty much the reason why this episode exists is because they were like, James Corden, Matt Smith really hit it off.

Why not give them another episode?

Yeah, and James Corden Starr was massively on the rise at this point because of Gavin and Stacy.

And with the fact that we're kind of doing the same thing again.

Well, that's what you kind of get in buddy comedy movies.

You know what I mean?

Like if you watch all the Marx Brothers movies back to back or Laurel and Hardy or Abbott and Costello, it's the same kind of gags held together by a plot, the plot exists to serve the chemistry.

And I think it's okay to do that occasionally.

And the funny thing is, I think the closest thing we've had to it in new series who, before Cordon and Smith, was probably Tenant and Tate.

[16:31]

And even then, I don't think there's an, a whole episode that's based around the same thing of, it's just these 2 making jokes for 45 minutes and we'll figure out, we'll figure out the plot otherwise.

It's just kind of peppered here and there.

There's probably a reason for that because this is all a little thin, isn't it?

I feel I feel like I'm probably the dissenting voice in this episode because I thought this was incredibly mundane to watch.

And as a lead instead of finale, just incredibly forgettable and didn't get me excited for what was coming.

Whereas I think the 3 of you had a much more positive reaction to this than me.

I think that one of the advantages of Doctor Who going to 45 minute episodes is that we don't have to have a big adventure every week, and I'm always longing for that, and the classic series did it in things like Planet of Fire or Morden Undead, where it is just sort of 4 episodes of them sort of mucking about while some thin plot sort of takes place in the background.

[17:33]

And when Boomtown came along, and we discovered that Doctor Who can do that, and I think Boomtown is one of the unsung heroes of series one, I think it's a spectacular episode, and it's as thin as anything.

I mean, it's ridiculous, but it's fun and it's nice to hang out with those people.

You say it's thin.

But I'd say it's got a bit of substance to it, Boomtown.

It does have that conversation about the death penalty and yeah, a couple of conversations.

And yeah, the whole thing about the doctor.

Sorry, we're talking about a completely different episode now.

Sorry to derail this.

The doctor dealing with like consequences of previous adventures.

It kind of leads into all of that.

And I think that's a bit more substantial and a bit more interesting than what's happening here.

Yeah, I mean, you've got Russell T. Davis riding boom down.

We don't got quiet.

But I think that being entertaining is a thing that a Doctor Who story can do and should certainly try to do.

[18:40]

And sometimes that's enough.

And I mean, there are plenty of times when Doctor Who doesn't even reach that level.

I think half of my, my problem here was.

You remember I said to you about 20 times in the lodger that I found it incredible relatable?

In fact, I think you called that episode relatable, yeah?

Well, I used to work in a department store, right?

And it's really dreary.

And so, and so this was the most relatable Doctor Who episode.

The cybermen are handing, they're hanging out in a department store.

Like, man, they've fallen low, haven't they?

They've fallen on tough times.

It's interesting.

Well, just with on that thing about substance.

One of the things I found very strange about this episode is that it feels very light and very thin, but I think it does tap into some of the things that Moffat, Stephen Moffat does come back to as a writer, which is the theme of parenthood.

You know, that's part of the story of coupling, isn't it?

[19:40]

Isn't that towards the end.

It's that, so, and again, which is why I feel it's, again, like with the lodger, which felt like a, you know, a sitcom episode that was outsourced to someone else, I find it weird that an episode that is about fatherhood, which is a prime concern of Stephen Moffats, is, again, outsourced to another writer.

I feel we made that exact point in the logic, didn't we?

Yeah, yeah.

How is Super Moffatt not writing this episode, it seems tailor made for him?

I suppose it's because Stephen Moffat has done that already, you know, and he does bring the that sensibility to Doctor Who, but he's also a writer who, and he said this himself, he doesn't like doing the same thing over and over and over again, and compared to Russell, he does reinvent the series a lot more often.

I was actually thinking about that. this week in regards to queer representation in the Stephen Moffatt series, and of course, there's basically none in series 5.

Then series 6, we've got 2 unnamed gay characters who are killed.

Let's not talk about that, okay?

[20:42]

Talk about those 2 characters.

Then Clara is sort of nebulously bisexual.

But then you get Bill, who is a fully formed queer character who has a queer romance and that romance ends up saving the day.

And that's the thing.

Stephen Moffat is constantly going, okay, what can we do that's new and different?

So perhaps he didn't do this sort of sitcom aspect so he could get a fresh take on it?

But it ends up being the same story as last year?

Yeah.

One of the earliest notes I wrote down was, this feels like the joke from a good man goes to war where Rory holds his baby for the 1st time.

Oh my god, I thought I was going to be totally cool and then starts crying and it feels like that joke stretched out for 45 minutes.

I mean, I think the interesting thing is, and perhaps it's a bit lazy, actually, is that last year, our overall plot was Amy wondering what to do with her relationship with Rory.

[21:42]

Should she get married?

And she escapes the night before her wedding in order to go off with her imaginary friend.

And then James Corden is having the same dilemma in the lodger.

And then this year, both of the writers go immediately to parenthood.

It's like that's the next thing that we think of.

And so Amy's pregnant in the arc story and has a child and Craig and Sophie have a child as well.

And so it seems to be just kind of the most obvious next thing to do.

And I don't think it's deliberately shadowing the main series 6 plot.

I just think it is kind of like here's where we go next.

Well, the irony in this episode of having James Corden's character come back and deal with the fallout of being a father when in the series writ large, they completely fudge that with Amy Bonds.

They absolutely should be doing this episode with Amy.

[22:45]

So when this series went out, I had a physical subscription to Doctor Who magazine, I only get it digitally now because of postage, but the issue that came out, I think, in the week before a good man goes to war, the cover was Amy, a Madame Caverian, with the title birth shock.

Oh, my God.

Yikes.

And in his production notes, and I may not get this verbatim, but Stephen Moffat says, yes, Amy and Rory are having a baby because you can get married, but having a baby is the next level, and I think he may even use the words, you're not really married until you have a baby.

Me, gay, no interest in having children.

I went, that seems a bit insensitive.

Um, and it is interesting how much this series focusses on parenthood, particularly fatherhood because we have Captain Avery.

[23:45]

We have Alex in Night Terrors, and we have Craig here.

Now, of course, you've got Amy and Rory as well, but as you say, Joe, they kind of drop the ball on that and then don't actually deal with Amy and Rory having to bring up a child.

And that's kind of treated as a triumph at the end of the year, whereas you then have 3 stories which are about people who doubt their ability as parents really stepping up and stepping into the role.

And I am someone who's quite critical of this series, it is my least favourite of the entire new series because of the plotter.

And curse of the black spot is in my bottom 5 episodes, but I do think.

The character of Avery, the character of Alex and the character of Craig actually present parenthood in a really positive light in Doctor Who.

Yeah.

And there's a real drama there in real arcs.

And it's funny, like, as I say, I have no interest in becoming a father myself, but I watch that and I go, that's actually really heartwarming.

[24:48]

Yeah, and I think in this particular instance, what closing time is about relating to parenthood?

It's about the instincts of parenthood, and the instincts of fatherhood.

It's a story about men who are terrified about being dads, and more specifically about being inadequate and their own inadequacies making them redundant as fathers.

You know, Craig is early on.

I've read the books, you know, where are the off switches?

And he's like stressed out the entire time that, you know, he can't get Alfie to sleep.

Um, he doesn't understand his own child.

But for all of Craig's lack of instinct and his inability to be responsive to what Alfie needs.

All that is left in his brain, even when the cybermen cleans it of emotion, is this instinct, this love for his child.

And that's what saves the day and confirms he is a good father.

Yeah, I wondered what the cybermen were doing given that they're kind of famously emotionless and it didn't seem to be Craig's problem that he didn't love Alfie.

[25:57]

That didn't seem to be the problem.

And it is exactly what you identify, Jack.

It's, I have no instincts.

I have no instincts.

And I guess what's being said here, and I don't know whether it's that good a message, but whatever, is that your instincts don't matter.

The only thing that matters is that you love your son.

And so the reason the cybermen are there is because they're vulnerable to emotion and because we need Craig's decision to kind of resolve the plot, because Craig is realising that his love for his son is enough and that's all that matters, and that incidentally blows up this particular kind of alien that we have here, just as last year, we're set up in this sort of complicated and utterly ridiculous situation where Craig's declaration of love for Sophie makes the spaceship explode, you know.

[26:58]

This is why he couldn't have been a main companion because the resolution would be every week.

Craig identifying a different reason why he loves something.

He would be he would be more powerful than bad wolf.

The moment itself, though, is so agonising when the helmet is coming over him and he's like, and he makes that choice.

I feel like over the years, the cybermen's weaknesses have gotten more extreme and more ridiculous, but James Corden deciding to have a go, you know, of being a parent.

That's just the Nadir of side of their weaknesses.

I don't know. nail polish probably beats it out.

Gold arrows.

I mean, there's been a few, isn't there?

I will say, though, in the new series till this point, emotion is their main weakness.

Like we don't have gold as a weakness yet.

[27:59]

We don't have radiation as a weakness.

We don't have nail polish remover as weakness.

The original script did have the use of gold.

Now, I don't think it's something that really happens here in Australia, but Joe and Jack, you're going to know what I'm talking about.

There would have been a scene where Craig explained there was a gold necklace in an envelope because Sophie was going to send it into a cash for gold website.

Yeah.

And so the doctor would throw that at the cyberbat.

And Stephen Moffatt basically just came back and said, I think we can, you know, we've got 2 very physical actors who do physical comedy.

Let's make it a fight scene with the cyberback.

Yeah.

Now, I totally understand, Joe, why you find that scene to be agonising, and I think anytime the solution is love, that's going to be a marmite solution for people.

I'm not saying that you can't lean into the idea that, you know, emotion, they're susceptible to emotions.

Do you remember in the age of steel, where the doctor turns off the thing, and then you have that shot of one cyberman, like looking in a mirror, screaming.

[29:05]

Like it can be really effective.

I just think it's just so melodramatic.

It's so overdone in this.

But I mean, at this point, the cybermen are kind of like buffy monsters, you know, the whole thing is we don't really care.

The thing that we care about isn't the alien invasion at all.

It is that Craig steps up and becomes a good parent, that he gains Stormageddon's approval, I think.

Yeah.

It's just like Rose, isn't it?

Rose was very much, you know, not about the autumns.

It was about Rose's journey.

And, you know, bizarrely enough.

They're both state department stores as well. strangers.

Well, one of the original concepts to set this story in was actually a police station.

And the idea is they could use sort of an old police station and that sort of thing.

But during the writing process.

It's just like, how how do you justify the doctor and Craig going back and forth to a police station?

And so a department store was decided upon instead.

But the big starting point for this episode was, let's do a sidemen story like in the 60s, where you barely see them.

[30:12]

They're in the shadows and they're just taking people.

You know, so sort of like in the invasion or the moon base.

Um, and I'm going to pin my colours to the mast here.

Oh, this is probably my 2nd or 3rd favourite new series, Sidemen Story.

Okay.

And in my top five...

Because of the, because of the way it uses the cybermen.

And I think, obviously, world enough and time beats it, knocks down the park, knocks almost everything out of the park.

The other new series story it's competing with for me is the haunting of Villa Diodati, which does the same thing of keeping a shard in the shadows and making him a sinister force.

Wouldn't you say that a Shardin deodarti, though, was way more effective than the Simon in this?

But there's one minute, deliberately, they're supposed to be a bit pathetic, aren't they?

and a bit useless and gathering their forces.

But yet still deadly.

And that's the thing, you never doubt a shard is deadly.

[31:15]

But you look at these side men and go, oh, they're a bit rubbish.

Yeah, but they're still going to send a side map after you with like a Chihuahua jaw or something.

May I very politely offer a counter argument?

Because I thought the cyberman's presence in this story was a real fundamental problem with it.

Definitely see where you're coming from.

But it got into a lot of different things for me.

Sorry, I am going to be ranting about this for a little bit.

I will speed through my thoughts as quickly as possible.

So what made the lodger work so well is that the sci-fi plot was deliberately unimportant?

That way it could comfortably fall into the background of the Dr. and Craig's story without feeling like a problem.

Even when Meglos was the villain in the lodger.

The joke was he was so forgettable, a villain, we didn't need to waste any time on him.

Here, the villains are the cybermen.

Doctor Who's 2nd most recognisable villain.

[32:17]

Can I say that?

Yeah, definitely.

Okay.

And I think they naturally draw the audience's attention just by the gravity of their significance.

But not only that, but this is the 1st story in Matt Smith's era where they are technically the main villain of the episode.

So there is this additional expectation that is built into this being the 1st proper Smith Cyberman showdown.

However, as in the lodger, the expectation is to keep the monsters in the background, or in this case, keep them in, you know, I guess the changing room, which is, which is fine until you create or use a monster whose appearance generates interest and expectation, which also risks leaving the audience feeling like they were a bit of a waste.

And I think that tension tugs at or at worst undercuts the episodes, other priorities with Craig and the doctor, which are absolutely the correct priorities, but you need a monster that the audience is willing to see relegated to the sidelines in service of something else.

[33:18]

And even then using the cybermen, the way they are deployed feels like a conscious, if not deliberate acknowledgement that they are the runners-up to the Daleks, we all cut.

It was established in Army of Ghost in Doomsday, wasn't it?

They are definitely 2nd place to the die.

It was established in the 60s.

I think, though. that one way that you can avoid spending time on the science fiction plot is to make it kind of thin to non-existent like in the lodger.

But another way that you can do it is just say, oh, and it's Cyberman, and we don't need to spend any time explaining it.

We don't need, like, to expend any energy, trying to work out who they are or what they're up to.

They're cybermen doing cybermen things.

And so that saves us time.

And I also think that this is a cyberman story in the sense that the Pandorica opens is a cyberman story.

[34:18]

I don't think that Moffatt's Doctor Who is comfortable with the Dalek story or the Cyberman story as a thing at all.

And so the Cyberman here are merely here to be the thing to be the kind of science fiction plot that doesn't need any explanation.

And I also don't think that the cybermen, with the kind of normal Doctor Who audience, I don't think the cybermen are a massive event.

I think that there's some recognisable Doctor Who stuff that appears in Doctor Who stories and that's their role here.

Like, this is the 1st time, for instance, that the cybermen don't fit into the continuity that's established by Russell, the cyber side.

Cyberman, who are created by John Lumic in Rise of the Cyberman, and even when they appear in the next doctor, it's explained how they got there and came back in time.

[35:19]

These cybermen have been here for 1000s of years.

How is that even possible?

And the answer is that we don't care.

You know, we just don't care.

And we're not spending any time.

That's right.

We're not spending any time on why they're here or what they're for because they are as thin as the emergency killing people hologram from the lodger.

Well, you say they're not an event.

I do think just bunging them into the season is going to draw in some more viewers.

I don't know what the ratings were for this one, but it absolutely is gonna bring some people that wouldn't normally watch Doctor Who in.

Jack, I've got a counterargument to your counteroffer because...

I agree with you and I think the side men are absolutely dreary in this episode and completely forgettable.

If I was having to like name Sidemen episode, I would never, ever think to mention closing time.

However, it does feature the best ever cyber map scene, which is extraordinarily good and the highlight of the episode.

[36:24]

I mean, those scary, bloody teeth.

It's so funny and so scary.

I thought that scene was excellent.

Yeah, it's hilarious and it's terrifying at the same time.

But why did they jettison them?

Like when they're back next year, the cybermats are out and the cybermites are in.

And I just, I would have loved to have seen more of these side mats.

They had potential.

Why didn't they?

This is sitting in a department store, in a toy store.

Why didn't they have those cyber mats being sold?

And then they're all activated at once and those horrible nasty teeth come out and lots of children are murdered around the world.

That would be an amazing story.

Way better than this.

So this, I think, is a good opportunity to talk about the script development. and where the title 3 Cybermen and the Baby comes from.

No.

So originally, you know, you had the kind of similar premise of, we're in a department store, people are going missing, et cetera. et cetera.

But people are going missing at a certain interval and it varies according to the draft, sometimes at 77 years, sometimes at 64 years, et cetera.

[37:33]

And it turns out what's happened is, Years and years and years ago, the cybership crashed, and it sent out one scout and one cyber mat.

Some ancient Britons poured sort of quick setting lime onto the side of that, and it ended up in a foundation stone under the department store.

And without getting any data, the scout was just basically, okay, I'm just going to stand around and get data, and ended up replacing bits of itself with organic components.

So the reason these people are going missing is he's recreating himself as a Frankenstein's monster.

But, This is the reason, also, it's set in Colchester, there was old King Briffer of Colchester, and there's a legend that he protected the town and protected the children of the town.

So when he is taken, into the body of the cyberman, he becomes a protector.

And what happens is the doctor and Craig figure this out, Craig actually appeals to the part that is Briffer and also one of the workers in the department store to kind of say, look, stop doing this.

[38:44]

And it actually goes well and the cyberman dies and everything's fine.

And then Craig's like, but isn't there like a ship full of them?

And 3 cybermen appear, like full powered, et cetera, et cetera.

Sounds amazing.

Why aren't we watching that instead?

Well, I think the reason was they wanted Craig sort of more integral to the solution, and it comes back to what you were saying earlier with, we've got the ending we want where Craig proves himself.

How do we fit that?

How do we fit that in?

And coming back to something you were saying, Jack, about.

It's okay to use Meglosk as a 2nd rate monster because we don't care.

I was just thinking, what sort of monster could we use from the past of Doctor Who that people wouldn't really care about?

And would still basically fulfil the same function.

And like taking people on board to help them fly their spaceships.

And this could have been the return of the crotons. would be there for that.

[39:45]

Imagine the protons in CGI.

Oh wow.

And you could still build it up like it was the site of that.

You know, you just have metallic hands coming out.

You have a metallic voice.

Do you what?

Are we watching that?

It doesn't.

That sounds incredible.

Do you just replace the cybernet with like a rolling crystal or something?

Why not?

Why?

Absolutely.

Why not?

And, you know, it occurs to me that, okay, the crotons aren't particularly susceptible to emotion, but they're sort of high brain low brain.

If they regard love as a low brain thing, That's how Craig destroys them.

So it also gets away from the schmaltziness, if you like, of the power of love.

And Craig could be saying, oh, it's because I love Alpha and the doctor.

Actually, it's because that emotion is far too simple and basic.

Yeah, yeah, it's not.

Yeah, imagine an army of protons over their heads spinning around, going crazy and blowing up.

That would be incredible.

I do take your point, Brendan, about the way the cybermen are used here in the shadows because that's something we haven't seen in a while.

[40:50]

And certainly these are the quietest side, but I think we've ever seen with their Zoom.

So quiet you may not remember them being there at all.

But then that's mission accomplished.

Do you know what I mean?

That's exactly why they're there because they're an extremely low effort science fiction point.

I think.

Moffat isn't interested in Doctor Who Monsters.

Look at what he does to the Son Torans.

He basically makes them unuseable. from here on in.

And the same with the Silurians.

You know, he is interested in those things as a source of Doctor Whoness, but isn't really interested in writing episodes about them.

Yeah.

And I also wouldn't trade anything in the world for the cybermats.

The scene where Matt Smith jumps through the window and is fighting a cyberbat with I am the doctor playing is possibly one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

Seriously enjoyable, isn't it?

Like, like Matt Smith does physical comedy, extra.

[41:51]

God, I'm saying very positive things about that.

You've chosen 2 good episodes and I've noticed that you've chosen episodes where Amy Pond's ducked out as well. have lots to say about her.

But yeah, it's so funny in that scene. really, really good.

And I feel like it's a sign of the show's confidence in itself.

It's a bit like bringing the macro back in gridlock.

The show's confident enough in itself.

It's like, we can bring something a little silly back from the old show and be very happy to just put it on screen and not be self-conscious.

You know, and have lines like, it's not a rat.

It's a cyber mat.

Lovely to have that back. talking about Matt Smith.

I think I think my favourite Matt Smith scene is in this episode, and that's a big thing to say over those 3 years, because he gets a lot of moments, doesn't he?

But, you know, I don't really like it when he's waving his hands around a solid screwdriver and he's screaming about jelly and ice cream and lemonade taps and things like that.

[42:51]

I felt like all very extreme.

But the scene with the baby, when he puts the stars on the wall.

I always feel he does his best work with children and this is like the ultimate with children the scene for Matt Smith.

Isn't that scene just gorgeous?

Yeah.

I love too, that it's initially negative.

Like he initially says you've got all these things ahead of you, mortgages and, you know, a persistent sense of spiritual emptiness or something like that.

And then and then he corrects himself and then talks about what his life has been like.

And because he's about to die, because they're at opposite ends of their lives, Alfie and the doctor.

And it is one of those things where Matt's doctor is rarely visibly sorry for himself, but he is aware that he's going.

And I just think that scene is fantastically great.

And that baby is an incredible actor.

What about the, um, when when Matt shushes him in that very early scene and he just reacts immediately and quietens down.

[43:59]

They must have like had the camera on that baby for like 6 hours in order to find their reaction.

When you think of all the children in the Stephen Moffatt era, and there are lots of them.

And I put them under the umbrella term of the brood of the damned because a lot of them are terrible actors.

Sorry, Jack, I know you don't like that.

And, um, and just upon it.

The baby, man.

The baby.

Imagine Arcy, don't even go there.

But that baby, what a great actor.

It was amazing.

But I also, I also think that the way the doctor works so well with Alfie feeds into what the story is saying about fatherhood because, you know, Sophie is Alfie's mother and she's no longer there and Craig feels incompetent, but also the doctor works so well opposite a child because he is a children's character.

So, of course, he is naturally responsive.

[44:59]

That's why he speaks baby, essentially.

Maybe I'm reading a bit too much depth into that one, but it sounded nice.

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you.

Alfie was played by 3 babies.

Incredible actors, yeah.

Isabel James, Josie James, and Ellis Pomeroy.

And if anyone wants to feel old, they'll all be about 10 now.

Thanks, Brendan.

But yeah, Matt Smith is...

He brings the melancholy here.

And much like Sylvester McCoy, that seems to be something he is very conscious of as an actor in his performance in that, you know, the doctor wants to be happy and wants to have fun, but there is always this pervasive melancholy underneath.

There's a bit that's cut from this episode, which, interestingly, I think, is pretty much reworked for the time of the doctor, and I'm going to read to you, if I may.

[46:00]

So basically, this is the doctor discovering the tunnel down to the cyberman spaceship, and he grabs the cyberman out of his pocket and starts talking to it.

From their spaceship, which any reasonable person, bitey, would assume was up in space, like most spaceships, hence the name spaceship, and not, in fact, actually under the shop all along.

Nothing to say?

No, anyone would have made the same mistake, doctor, don't blame yourself.

Worst companion ever.

Impression is amazing, by the way.

Well, I'm jealous of Jack Soldi, you see.

He has a line that he says to the baby, which I just thought was so moving. and he says, save the tears for later, boyo.

Oh, it's just so cute.

I love it.

It's heart wrenching.

Yeah.

It sort of feeds into a moment.

I really hate from next week's episode, but is totally in keeping with the character where River explains how they're trying to save him and he turns around and says, you embarrass me.

[47:05]

And it's just like, that kind of fury.

You see, you see that beneath the surface here.

It's just a tiny bit and it pulls himself back, even though that's a bit I don't like.

It a quality of the actor, which is amazing.

When I graduated university, I gave the valedictorian speech for my college, and um, I really, I struggled very hard to find a theme that could summarise all these wonderful years I'd had there because you didn't want to make it too morkish.

You didn't want to make it too funny.

And the only thing I could settle on was, I think one of the final lines I put in it was, I hope you all had as much fun as I did.

Um, so, so hearing, yeah.

Yeah, so yeah, so when I heard Matt Smith telling a baby, I hope you had as much fun as I did, it really got to me.

I feel incredibly mundane, you know, you saying, you know, the memory you're leaning into is you gave the valedictorian speech and the memory I lent in 2 years, I worked in a department store.

Honestly.

I would actually like to talk about the department store characters a bit because I think they're a big girl.

[48:09]

I think they're a big success in that.

Linda Barron.

You get Linda Barron in to play this gossipy perfume counter woman.

She's so great.

And she's so supportive of Craig and the doctor's relationship.

It's very sad.

Not enough of her, though, isn't it?

I feel like she should have had a bigger role.

Like, when you think of her as, oh, my word.

Thank you very much in environment.

Part of what makes her and the other department store characters so successful is they don't realise they're in a Doctor Who story.

Yeah.

Like you look at so many other stories where there's just incidental characters, and very often the writers sort of go out of their way to give them a sort of companion moment, a moment where they realise they're in something bigger than themselves, so they help the doctor.

And here, that moment with Linda Barron, where the doctor's like, have you seen anything strange?

And she's like, well, at the office, Christmas.

They just totally refuse to be part of this alien invasion plotline.

[49:09]

Thank you very much.

You know, they've got they've got their day off to think about, you know, Paul Kelly not getting the day off because Shona's been taken by a Cyberman.

Um, you know, George.

Those people are so well drawn, you know, when I say words in the department shop, those people were absolutely working there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome. yeah And you know, you've got George, the security guard, who, of course, when we 1st see him, he's, you know, big and gruff.

He's imposing.

He going to mess about.

And then the 2nd he sees the doctor, huge smile on his face and, oh my god, my friend's here, how lovely, sort of thing, you know?

And then of course, he's horribly murdered.

In fact, upsettingly, the 2 people that we see killed are the 2 black employees of the department store.

And I think that's a bit of a problem.

And I think when this writer's final script comes out, there's all kinds of inadvertent colourblind casting which spoils it a little bit as well.

It is the cast, you know, isn't it?

[50:09]

Obviously, it's not deliberating.

Yeah, it's not the writing.

No, no, no. not the writing.

It is the casting, but it's something that I think people need to be a bit more careful about.

And it is a bit of a problem, I think.

I will say that in the script, only Shona is specified as being black, George wasn't, there was also another actor who played a warehouse man who was also taken.

Oh, okay.

So Ian Hilditch, who was to play that warehouse worker, is a white actor.

So unfortunately cutting him does lead to that unfortunate thing of the 2 people we see killed on screen are both people of colour.

And it will become a bigger problem in the caretaker.

So, it's interesting, there's all this stuff about cybermen and fatherhood and all this other stuff, and the main plotline of the series, which is Amy Rory and River, they're kind of cameo tacked on additions to the rest of this story.

[51:25]

And I suppose Amy and Rory have a bit more of a thematic resonance in this story.

But by the time you get to the closing, the closing scene, it's a bit more grafted on.

I suppose.

So that scene with Amy and Rory, I think, is also kind of reminding us and maybe reminding the doctor of why he left them behind because the doctor actually regrets staying to help Craig at some point.

Do you remember that where he says, I'm a vain and selfish man?

And I sort of show off and put my friends in danger.

And he made the decision to stop doing that with Amy and Rory after the God complex.

And now he's finding himself unable to break the habit and doing it again with Craig.

And so I think that there's a whole sort of thing working up towards him making the decision to, like I'm going to go, like it's time for me to leave.

[52:31]

And that obviously leads to the final scene, doesn't it?

Because we see river leaving to go to Lake Silencio just after we see the doctor leaving to go and they'll be confronting each other sort of quite soon.

How do we feel that scene goes?

Well, is there an expectation there that people have watched the whole season?

Because if the expectation is there that people are just watching this episode, then that scene is just so weird at the end of this episode.

If that is the case, though, and they've just tuned in.

It's a really good way to get them to tune in next week and also to jump on iPlayer and and see what they've missed.

Imagine you hadn't seen any of this season, and the end, you've been, well, what the hell was that about?

But I mean, that's true of any serialised media, and this season is more serialised than Doctor Who has ever been.

The expectation is that if you're just dipping into an episode, there'll be enough there for you to enjoy, but there'll be bits that you don't get.

[53:34]

You know, you could say the same thing about, say, the episode of Battlestar Galactica, where the final 5 here, Bob Dylan and meet in that room, you know?

And if you hadn't seen any episode of the series before that, it will be like, oh, what is this?

But when you have seen everything, you're like, 0 my god, it means these 5 people that we've just spent 4 seasons with asylons.

You know?

Is it there, you're comparing, possibly, you know, one of the greatest moments. 2 series 6 of Doctor Who.

There is there is a gulf between the two.

It's it's the same device.

Okay?

I will compare it to something totally terrible for you in the 90s, right?

There was a series called Team Knight Rider.

Wow.

Okay.

So it was a, it was a spinoff from Knight Rider, and it was a little bit Power Rangers in that there was like a team of 10 people, all of whom had talking cars.

And at the end of the 1st episode, one of them attempts to find out how the Knight Rider program started and finds a classified file on Michael Knight, and she can't get into it, but she says, but I have the highest clearance.

[54:46]

Shock.

And it's like, okay, well, that's clearly there to make you watch the rest and find out who this Michael Knight person is.

I didn't.

And I think a lot of people didn't.

Why am I hearing about this for the 1st time?

Because we haven't done it on Bondfinger somehow.

It's that kind of device.

It's the device to reward the long-term viewer.

But also to pull in the people who have come in halfway through.

So they go back and watch the rest of it or so they go out and buy the DVD box set.

Right.

And I'm kind of springing off that.

I think one of the things that scene does is that the main bits of information it hooks into are episode one, it uses the visual reference of the astronaut, which is straight there from the very beginning of the series.

The other information we know is that River is Amy's daughter.

They reference Melody Pond, which is the midpoint of the series, and that river has been engineered by the silence, which is the other big episode.

[55:54]

So the information it's signposting in that scene are the big tent pole episodes of the whole series structure.

That's a really good point.

And generally speaking.

I mean, generally speaking, the 1st episode of a series is the one that people are most likely to have watched.

It'll be the one with the highest viewing figures.

And what this does is it positions this episode as a prequel to episode one.

And so it makes the season circular.

And that's something that, you know, Moffatt is unable to resist, I think.

Yeah.

And also, I think part of why it can get away with, because, you know, the revelations of a good man goes to war and let's kill Hitler are technically just in the middle of the season.

And in any other season, it would be a bit of a gamble staking so much of the audience's retention of information to roughly around the midpoint of the season.

[56:57]

But because the season has been structured with this mid-season finale and then this mid-season premiere, it can kind of get away with referencing stuff that happens roughly in the middle because those points have been treated as an episode 12 and an episode one.

Yeah.

Also, I think we found watching through that the arc elements do intrude in just about every episode of this season.

So we aren't really relying on people remembering something that happened sort of 6 months ago because it keeps coming up again and again.

And so for all of the complexity of this arc, and I think it is the most ambitious and complex arc that the show ever attempts, our hands are kind of held all the way through and we're kind of constantly being reminded of it.

My biggest problem with that taxi is I found it more enticing and more exciting than the previous 40 minutes.

[58:05]

And I was like, well, I wish we'd been watching this for the last 40 minutes, and my other issue with it is it offers huge promise, and then they deliver the wedding with River Song.

But I'm not on that episode, so I'll leave you to do that next week.

Bye bye.

Well, they listener, that's all we have time for this week.

We'll be back next week to watch history completely collapse again in the wedding of River Song.

In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FTE Podcast on Twitter and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody into Terror, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek project.

[59:16]

Jack, where can people find you online?

You can find me on Twitter at Shaq Janahan.

You can also find me as one of the illustrious co-hosts of the Naimon B praise, which I do with another irascible character who should not be named or listened to.

Um, uh, by the name of Joe Ford, uh, and you can follow us at uh, Naimon podcast.

And Joe, where else can people find you?

Oh, I've never podcasted before.

No, you can you can find me on my commentary podcast, Dr. Commentary podcast called Hammerson with a Blunt Penknife, of which everybody on this chat has contributed.

Nathan has done about 6 stories now.

What's your favourite one you've done?

I really enjoyed doing arachnids in the UK.

That was massively popular as well.

You know?

Go Jolie.

Brendan gave a meteoric defence of time fly.

[1:00:20]

And and Jack did one of his favourites, the brain of Morbius.

And you can find me on Twitter on at DocOho.

Until next time, you're very, very welcome.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

Good night.

Good night.

That was Flight through Entirety.

Sorry, Nathan Bottomley drove forward, Brendan Jones, and Jack Shanahan.

Theme arrangement by Cameron Lann.

This episode, Alfie, was recorded on the 10th of October 2021 and released on the 5th of December.

Yet another shameless plug.

Joe Ford and I can currently be heard on Untitled Star Trek project, in which we watch and discuss random episodes from every Star Trek series.

Stay tuned until after these closing credits to see how effortlessly professional we are at podcast production.

Time to say goodbye, doctor.

[1:01:21]

It's closing time.

Awful, that was even better than the 1st time.

Thank God we went again.

Yeah, I did a deliver.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

In the groove now.

There we go.

So I have a feeling that we've done this one before.

I am not leaving in any reference to the fact that I didn't press record, except possibly in the tag. so funny.

Oh my god.

Well, since we get to reuse jokes again, I feel like I'm in a chronic hysteresis.

Incidentally, incidentally, swarm.

Santarans, weeping angels, ravages Megalos?

[1:02:22]

Yeah.

You've cracked the code.

You have cracked the code.

We nearly had Meg loss in this last year.

Anyway.

But I'm going to go...

Oh, I'm going to go and do that. you meant series.

We nearly had them in series 12.

Imagine Megloss written by Chris Chibnall.

That would that would be another orphan 55 moment.

That may actually have bumped it up a bit in my in my estimation, I think.

The timeless child is.

And it is Olivia Coleman as attached.

Or you make all the greatest hips.

Oh my god.

If only she'd never been in the show.

All right, here goes.

So cactus.

Sorry.

So I have a feeling that we did this one before together earlier this year.