There’s an Apostrophe

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast that pays for its yearly holidays on Ackerton with used pizza boxes and empty wine bottles. I'm Nathan. I'm Brendan. I'm Todd, and I'm Peter. Well, the doctor is taking his new friend Clara off on her 1st big space adventure as part of his ongoing application process to become her official stalker. It's the end of the world's new Earth, Planet of the Ude, and the Beast Below, all rolled into one. Welcome to the Rings of Ackerton. I don't hate this. I don't hate this at all. I don't think I hate it either. Um, it still has some of the problems. It had for me in 2013, but I enjoyed it a lot more this time. I actually think it's really strong and I loathed it. Yeah. 2013 and it wasn't on this rewatch. It was on a previous one that I actually thought, no, this is really good. And I love the way it sort of links in with the last episode, which also I thought was pretty weak 1st time through, but now I like both of these, like 7.5 to 8 for that one and this one definitely an 8 for me. Sorry, I'm getting it all my hearts. But no, I really like these as a one-two punch at the beginning. I think there's some really great character work for Clara. Yep. You know, the whole leaf thing between the 2 episodes and all the great intelligence last episode and the woman in the shop giving her the message. And I think Matt's great in both of these too. I have a few problems with it, I think. And one of them, I think you'll be astonished to learn, is something to do with Matt's performance, but I think this is better than I thought it was initially as well. El Sandra says, in her review of this episode, or maybe the previous one, that series 7 B is generally good, but there's one episode in which it falls down and that one episode is basically different for everyone. And I do think, yeah, I do think that Rings of Ackerton is not widely liked. No, it is exceptionally maligned and I can't quite work out why because even though I think it is a little bit thin and lightweight in a lot of ways, I don't know how you could vehemently not like it. I mean, to give you some context to that, I did the 1st 50 years Paul, forgot 2 magazine. And this came in the bottom 10 stories. From memory, it was like number 233 out of 241 and that just beggars belief. It is simply not that bad. What do you think the problem might be? Well, on my initial watch? Todd Alert was like small children, small children who sing, like doubly so. And, you know, last week we had some child actors in as well. Oh, tell us about that. Probably couldn't find them. They're back. They're back for the best episode of the season. Nightmare of Silver. God, that's a terrible. So that's interesting for another time. But for me, I was clouded by the fact that there was this child actor and we're having singing to resolve things and that just put me off and I was just over it. But I actually think this thing's very beautiful. Yeah. And I think she's actually a very good little actress. You know who she is, don't you? No, no. She is Amelia Jones, who is the lead in last year's Oscar winning film coda. Oh, well, I'm really glad she's had success because I think she's wonderful as well. She's really good and she's also a nice singer. Yeah, I think she'd been acting since she was eight. But she's continued to work, unlike some of our favourite child actors from the Moffatt era. I think she is really strong as well. I wonder, though, whether the problem is that this isn't science fiction in any real sense of the word, and it does seem to come from someone new to the show. It does a whole heap of things that Doctor Who doesn't normally do. And so maybe it's the weird fantasy element of it that put people off. Two things put me off on the 1st viewing. It's very strangely paced. Like, it's it's kind of top heavy and then not much happens in the middle and then it's a result. kind of peters out in the middle and then at the end. Yeah, and the other thing that put me off at the time. was, and you see, this is so stupid and I was going to say, oh, this is an example of immaturity. I was 30, dear listener. So was Mary. I thought the creature in the glass cage was a draconian and it wasn't a draconian and that made me really cross. Wow, which is just stupid. It's just stupid, but it even looks like it's wearing draconian stuff. All right, grandad. Don't look askant sitting there on your throne behind glass. Eyes can be seen mouth computing. I went into it this time, not expecting to dislike it, but just knowing I disliked it last time, and I thought, I'm not going to focus on those elements I didn't like. I'm just going to sort of let it wash over me. And there's just something so charming about it. It's like, the doctor often says, you know, I don't go looking for trouble. I don't go looking for trouble. I travel to see things. And this is a story that actually goes, no, for the 1st 15 minutes the doctor is just here because this is a lovely, beautiful place to be and he wants to show Clara something nice. And I think that is, It's responsible for the weird pacing, but it's also a really great change of pace. I wonder if the reason it's so poorly received is because it comes between Bells of St. John, which we said last week. is very slight, but very confident and brisk, and enjoyable, and Cold War, which I know a lot of people have problems with, and I can understand. But at the same time, has an nice warrior and an all-star cast like has got Cunningham and David Warner and Tobias Menzies, Prince Charles. Prince Charles. It's the 2 Prince Philips. Yes. But I think for that reason and the fact that it's a bit weird people judge it harsher. I think it would be a production thing as well because coming with the fantasy element, it's very green screen heavy and Doctor Who is not usually that. And so it has kind of shades of the Phantom menace to us, and I think it might turn off a few people. But I like it. I really like the fact that it's trying to be alien. and charmingly so. It's got that Star Wars cantina kind of vibe. And, you know, it reminds you of every Star Trek Voyager marketplace that they that they ever visited. It's really interesting better you talk about Star Wars because yes, that it's got the cantina. But I also think, you know, when they're in that arena and sitting down, It's sort of like the attack of the clones, like, yeah, going to watch something. Yeah, or Tsung, can't say, with Jerry Ryan beating the crap out of the rock in Voyager. I don't think I've watched that. You should. But if we go back to the beginning, The beginning is the doctor seeing how Clara's parents met with the leaf and the fact that he's almost run over by a car. Shades of rose and yeah. And then the doctor's really creepily watching on Clara. Yeah. Yeah, and that is a little bit of a problem. And Moffat doesn't want, look, he gets to introduce, what, 3 companions, right? And it's only by the 3rd go that he's confident enough to just say he or she is. This is the new companion. She's going to come into the Tartars and say it's bigger on the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas here he's got this huge kind of structure around the appearance of Clara in that she's appeared twice before there's a mystery about her. And so what we get is the doctor sort of creepily going back and investigating her backstory. How can she possibly just be Clara Oswald from 2013, age 24? What's kind of going on there? And I don't much like the fact that it's the 2nd companion in a row that he meets as a child. And in fact, the prequel scene thing is entirely that, isn't it? Yeah, the thing is, from a narrative point of view, he's coming off the back of paranoia with Amy and Rory and how they were used against him. But taken in isolation. And that's the thing. This is a reset for the series. Amy and Rory are never mentioned in these 1st 2 episodes. So if you come to this new, you're absolutely like, why is he doing this? Yeah. You know, um, I think Matt Smith being Matt Smith offsets some of the sinister element of it? like when he gets hit in the head with the ball and jumps into a Venusian karate stance. But at the same time, it is a repeat of what we've had before. We do get one big benefit from it, though, which is Clara's hot short dad. Yeah, he is hot, isn't he? It's a shame he won't be back for time of the doctor for some reason. Yeah. I think... homophobic. I think that it is Moffat doing the thing where instead of just having a flashback, so we're giving Clara some backstory. We're getting to know who she is in one sense. And given that this is the way the episode's going to resolve itself. We kind of need it. But we sort of just need it so that we know her better. But because we have a time machine, we can make the flashbacks not be flashbacks at all. We could just have the doctor going back into the past and experiencing them in real time. And it's clearly what he's doing between dropping her off at the end of Bells of St. John and picking her up again at 7 PM the following day. And another thing that I like about it is that we see Clara actually really looking forward to seeing him again, and she's sitting on the stairs waiting for him to arrive, whereas previously she'd sort of rather cooly dismissed him at the end of the episode. It's that modern day online romance thing where you have to be cool. And so even though you really want to hear from someone again or go out for a date. Don't text them too soon. And so, you know, the sort of you present an artifice to the world but really you're kind of keen on it. Yeah. But I do think, like, you know, as much as, you know, we can bring that up as being a bit of a point, I do think that it's great that this is continuing her character of development. I mean, the next 2 episodes, which were filmed before these, are just so generic and don't link to anything in the season. I think they really suffer because of it. Whereas this, I think it actually helps the ending or with the whole leaf thing really brings this story together when it could have just collapsed in upon itself. I think, too, that what they've done too is crafter story kind of around this leaf. So it's a story where... should have been rubber. Oh my god, a single leaf fell and a Clara grew. But we go to a planet where sentimental value is value. And there's some sort of hand wavy thing, but essentially it's kind of magic, isn't it? Yeah. The thing is, I don't mind that. Like Doctor Who has done psychometry before with Professor Clegg for instance, in Implanted the Spiders. Something I do have a little bit of a problem with watching through this time is the doctor is wearing Amy's specs. And then when they go to get the space bike, he's like, oh, no, I don't have anything of sentimental value to give away. And I don't think it's a conscious character moment, but I do kind of go, at the same time, is this the doctor going, okay, how far are you willing to go in travels? Like, you can't, the universe isn't a free ride kind of thing. But I think if that were deliberate, it would have been cooled out. And it does, it does mean we get the lovely moment where she gets the ring back at the end. I was saying there's probably a practical reason to that in that he probably wears them in hide or something like that. Yeah. Can we talk about his costume? Because this is the 1st time that he's fully in the new costume. Yeah, with the Westcoat. Yeah, so we see him choose the purple coat thing. Purple. I actually have to say that I don't mind it and I think he looks pretty good. It's a shame that that sort of knee length kind of jacket thing is just 80s Doctor Who doctors all basically have that until... It's the tele movies idea of what the doctor should address. Yeah, it really is. And I think here, where suddenly he has a waistcoat and a watch chain and stuff like that, this is when it just gets stupid. I think it becomes a Doctor Who costume and I dislike it. Reminds me of Willy Wonka. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, also, I think Tom had a short coat in his 1st series and then he got the longer coats. It's a change and it's a costume. Yeah, right, totally nature. Yeah, I mean, no one would wear what Matt wears in real life in seasons 5 and six, but once they would have. And that kind of works, you know, when we get the doctor come up in the 1960s in 1963, he's wearing kind of Edwardian clothes. And so having a doctor in 2010 where sort of clothes from the 1950s works as well, I think. But it's also the kind of character is because you would see that series 56 outfit, but kind of on a slightly eccentric university boffin. You know, that's kind of style that they would go for. It works for the character, but this, I'm just not sure what this is. I quite like it, but I agree it's over designed. And I think really, it looks much more real without the waistcoat last week. Yeah. They add the waistcoat this week and it just, it heightens it too much. Is it Coco Chanel who said before you leave the house, look in the mirror and take off one thing? Yeah, it's usually my pants. I was wondering about that ankle. Your underpants? Look you're modelling right now. He's basic instincting us as we speak. But yeah, that's the thing. It's like, I like it as a costume and I like it as a design, but it's also very, very heightened. And I also feel that this console room, which I know has been discussed a couple of episodes ago, I know pretty much everyone loves this and it's their favourite of the new series. I think it's better later on when they make modifications, but even then, I think the console room is also too designed and too precise. But I know I'm in the minority of that. Yes, Brendan. Yeah, I like the Whittaker console room. What do I know? Do you also like the opening credits and dodo? Yes. And also new dodo. Lauren Cornelius doing a great job. But it kind of works because it works on Matt Smith. You know what I mean? But I totally agree. It is a costume. And I think what we needed, He doesn't, like, he changes the shirt and bow tie every week. But I think maybe what we needed is the same cut of coat, but one or 2 different colours because, you know, as soon as Tenant gets his blue suit, his costuming becomes a lot more interesting. And, you know, he always varied it with like tie, no tie, et cetera. Matt had had different tweed coats and then he had the green great coat, which I know not everyone liked, but it was something different. This, he, it's just too much the same all the way through. They're not changing enough each week. Purple just don't work for me. Yeah. I'm kind of getting a Colin Baker vibe from it. And it's another one of those occasions where you think if only Colin had been allowed to wear something a little bit more like this where it is weird, it is still a costume, but it's not quite as horrific as what he was forced to wear for his time on the show. You keep looking at me. Well, it's because you came here dressed in Colin Baker's outfit and I'm trying to be polite about it. At the hair. No, no, no. I'm totally fine with these comments. You look fabulous. I have to say, I really like Doreen. Lovely smile. Yeah, adore in the moped Wrangler. I've got that written down. Oh, I called it the moped renter, but it... I like a little barking, like et cetera, with carvinista, and they could bark at each other to their heart's content. My favourite thing about the name is that in the credits, there's an apostrophe because it's a space name. Because it is... Like the hoofaloo. But I just like the fact that it's the whole marketplace and you get to see all sorts of different alien designs and we've seen that a couple of times. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, obviously the end of the world is the kind of locus classicus of that. You take her to an alien place but make it really properly alien. And he rattles off a list of alien names which I can't remember. I like the pan Babylonians, that's one of my favourite ones, I think. They're Babylonians, and they're not very picky about who they're going to have sex with. is the idea. I like the Hooveloo. Yeah, it's like a list of your house cleaning tasks. I like the blue fruit. I would have a norm on that Bluefruit. It looks nice, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Clara doesn't like it, but the doctor clearly does. See, it just isn't quite as good as the beef slushy in the long game, which is, I guess, the other time that we do this. And let's not forget the start of turn left. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think what really works about the bluefruit for me is Clara sort of biting into it and smiling and going, and then going, hmm. That's something that the stools lady would say. Greatest show, yeah. And that leads us to a great bit where the doctor wanders off. Yeah, yeah. Clara's like, what? And then she gets embroiled in the adventure. But nothing terrible happens, like she doesn't get knocked out like Amy does or something like that. And then when the doctor finds... beckoned into a tent. Red hair. Big guys. Do you want to see the snake in my globe? I flutter my fingers. It's lovely that, you know, Clara's 1st intervention on an alien world doesn't lead to something horrible happening. It doesn't lead to her getting locked up and it like things start to go wrong, but the plot very clearly says, no, no, no. Clara didn't do anything wrong. Mary didn't do anything wrong. It's this bastard over here who's messing things up for everyone. And I think it's so lovely when the doctor finds her again, she doesn't gush about, oh, you know, I helped the kid and da da da. She's like, no, I'm just having fun and enjoying the sights. And I think he sort of looks at her like, okay, no, something's happened, but you're good. It's all good. Let's go watch the song. I love the fact that the doctor originally came here with his granddaughter. Yeah. Why is that mentioned? I mean, I know it's to make Clara Boggle for a second. You know, this is a 30-year-old who apparently has a granddaughter but the other... into Essex. I mean, the other grandfather in the episode is the grandfather like that horrible mummy thing in the in the glass case. Yeah. Well, I think there is an effort there of juxtaposition. And it's played on in the climax in that the doctor gives, you know what I mean? And there are times when the doctor is selfish and doesn't take other people into account because he's not a perfect character. But the doctor is basically a giver. He gives people these experiences where all the other grandfather does his take. Yeah, yeah. I felt really wistful with that mention because there's something which the black and white years never did, which I wish they had which was like, take the characters to a truly alien world with marketplace and things like that. You can just imagine the doctor and Vicky poking around a place like this while Ian and Barber off, I don't know, getting sold into slavery. And it was a real like, I wish that we'd seen that. And so, yeah. I will say, though, Marco Polo sort of does that because something that David Whitaker said was that for Ian and Barbara, the past is as alien as an alien world. But yeah, I totally agree with you there, Peter, because there's an element in the heart and malaria, because you have longer stories. You often have periods where the characters, like in the Romans are just living in the time. And that's what this seems to be. And I think the mention of Susan is both because it's the 50th anniversary. Oh, yeah, we're going to mention that. But it's motivated by the fact that the doctor is talking about this place so affectionately that Clara is like, oh, you've been here before. And I hear that and I immediately go, okay, we're going to get another awkward gridlock moment. But instead, Clara's just like, oh, you've brought me to somewhere you know is great. And it just, it makes me love this pairing immediately. Like, they're both on the same frequency of, let's do something fun. And we've had that line immediately previously where the doctor's like, where do you want to go? And Clara says, you know that thing where you asked for your favourite book and you suddenly forget every book you ever read? No, no idea. It's so, it's so sweet. I think if Richard were here, you know, he would be comparing it to Carrie Granton, Catherine Hepburn or Spencer Tracy and Catherine Hepburn. You know, they have that rapid fire thing between them, Matt and Jenner. really gel very quickly. And also that's such an easy thing to answer. Doctor Who Planet of the Daleks. Yeah. I think they missed a trick with the whole Susan connection by not having Clara at the end screaming, going, no, grandfather, no. But it is quite nice because it's a fantastical situation, but in those scenes with Clara and Mary, Jenna is great and she's really playing it just like a normal person who's come across child in distress and reaching out to them. There's no kind of space acting involved. But she's had 3 episodes in a row where she's had to be with small children at some point. You know, she's a master at acting with them and helping their performances or some of them anyway. It is very strange because we very definitely seem to be wanting to position Clara as someone who is very caring. And I don't know whether I've just got a false impression, but I think that she is much more brittle and much less like that in her last 2 seasons, but maybe it's because I haven't rewatched them recently. Well, I think, though, the ongoing plot does attempt to explain why that is. But yeah, I think early on, we are we are setting up for that. And something I really like about it is, you know, we've had the flashback, we know what's happened to Clara's mother, Ellie. But the story never says Clara looks after children because this happened to her. I think that's definitely the conclusion we're meant to draw as the audience, but it's not crammed down our throats. It's organic character development. And something that I don't think is ever commented on is Ellie dies on the 2nd day that Rose takes place. So it's highly likely that Ellie was killed by an auton. Yeah, I mean, I kind of want her not to have died for space reasons, obviously. because lots of people died on that day. Do you know what I mean? And weren't... Yeah, totally. When dresses or whatever. But that date was also chosen by the production team. You know, and I only noticed it this time around because I went, oh yeah, it's 2005. when the new series came back. Oh yeah, it's March, which is when it's the 5th and I'm going to Doctor Who Wikia now. But yeah, Jenna has such warmth in her performance there. And even when it looks like she was wrong and, you know, singing the song was a bad idea. And even when Mary attacks her, her instinct is, no, Mary, I know you're scared, I'm going to protect you. It's really well done and it's done without big speechifying or explaining character motivation. Is Moffat doing a thing here? Because we talked in the last podcast about the fact that the great intelligence, it's thing is corrupting children and turning into things. So is Moffat playing that against the fact that Clara has this really maternal role and bond with children? Yeah, maybe. Maybe there, I mean, Moffat, you know, the Moffat era is the 1st era of Doctor Who ever to regularly bring children into it. You know, it is a Moffat thing. There aren't many children in Doctor Who before then. and there haven't been many children subsequent to that either. And, you know, for Moffatt, Doctor Who is the thing that you are slightly scared of that you watch as a child. And Mothat might be the only producer, stroke showrunner who has young children. time, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can we talk about the setting? I sometimes wonder whether part of the antipathy towards this show is that if you're a big kind of space science fiction, the setting is preposterous. So Ackerton is a son. See, this is where I was confused because it's referred to as a sun at the beginning, but then it's referred to as a gas giant. But maybe it's a binary star system. It's a gas giant with a frowny face in eyes. So you've got the rings, which is like a, you know, like a disc of kind of, you know, asteroids. And we see 2 of the 7 asteroids or worlds or planets and they get referred to as planets. Yeah, but they're not spherical or spheroid. And in fact, the marketplace seems to be built on top. In fact, you know, on both planets, we seem to be building on top of the asteroid, as if down was kind of still working and we get these planets that we can see from one planet to another one, sound appears to carry from one planet to the other one. The moped appears to go from planet to planet in like 3 seconds. Yeah, so I'm sort of waving my hand in the corner and having a conniption. Yes, that's the thing. That's the problem I have with it. It's like they sort of viewing everything that seems to be going on with grandfather over there and what goes in between. And I can never work out if it's like from here to the end of this room or from here to like 2 suburbs away. Yeah. And so, that's one part of the episode where I kind of think, oh that's a bit unrealistic, like, yeah, that there's not clear how all that happened. And I can understand why it raises people's ire because Doctor Who has never got its science wrong before. Yeah exactly right. I never will again. I think that there is a really, really proper effort to put something super weird on the screen. That's kind of why I like it. Yeah, me too. But you see, he wrote this after. The other episode, which he does later in the season, is tied which they liked, and then they got him to do some reason. as that can be, but that also tries to do something a bit different from what you expect. And so I think that's sort of similar here. Yeah. The concept of this episode came about because Marcus Wilson, I can't remember if he's producer or co-exec at this point. No, I think I think just producer, but he pointed out to Stephen Moffatt, look, in the 1st half of this series, we had our American shoot and our Spanish shoot, we don't have a budget for an international shoot in this half, but we still want something visually spectacular. What if we created something on the scale of an international shoot as a science fiction setting? So it's like, right, we're going to have this marketplace and we're going to have this pyramid and we're going to have more aliens than we've ever had before. And the alien design work is one of the really successful things. Like I only spotted one of them that was a reuse of an alien from earlier in the series. And they did, they did say, oh, we can have Jadoon and we can have this and we can have that. And Stephen Moffat actually said, no, if we're going to do this let's not make it look like we've just raided the costume cupboard. Yeah. You know, and pretty much that went down to, okay, in that case we're not having Jadoon and Hoyks and Slovine. Yeah. Although I think that one of the brothers hot pylene or something is... And I think someone has mugged some half, stolen, stolen their breathing things, left them to drown. When they were mugged, they tried to call out for help and it was... Poor half key. It's kind of like there are moments where the marketplace looks really cheap. Yeah, yeah. Hey, but it's Doctor Who. The set looks really terrible. I think a lot of it looks good and I kind of go, no, I would rather you look cheap when you're trying to be ambitious than be cheap because you think it's going to look bad anyway. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Do you think some of the, I think some of the green screen is not the best. like whether it be on the moped going between the planets or whatever. Or where Mary is being dragged by that force field across to the grandfather's planet. Which, of course, then undermines the whole distance between things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like the problem with Chromickey and the classic series and that some of it actually really is good, which only highlights the bits that aren't. Yeah. But again, I think I would agree with you. Rather than do the 90 Star Trek thing of, let's just not show anything too interesting because that would be expensive, we get we don't care. Let's try and see what we can do and some of it falls flat. But they deserve praise. Yeah. I think I think they deserve praise for being like that rather than then coming, cutting back and saying, well, we just did this and this happened, you know, without actually seeing it, you know like 90 Star Trek voyager, it does. Yeah, it's kind of like with the mopeds. That came about because as part of this idea, Marcus Wilson said to Neil Cross, you know what we've never done in Doctor Who? We've never done something as good as the speeder bike chase in Return of the Jedi. It never will. Yeah, it's like, you still haven't, mate. That's the genesis of the idea. And I think it's one of those things where by the time it comes for them to do it. They've kind of forgotten the original intent and they're just doing it because it's there instead of just going, you know what? Let's have a transmat cubicle over here and save the money to do this other shot here. But at the same time, it's like the speed of bike stuff is sorry the moped stuff is not as bad as I remember it then. Yeah. The really dodgy bit of green screen for me is when the doctor's trying to unlock the door and he's standing about 3 or 4 metres away from Clara because the camera is focussed on him, which means she's out of focus, which means you get that CSO fuzziness around her head because there's no clean edge. Yeah. And I'm just like, that's green screen 101. You've gotta have a clean edge. You got to have everything on the same plane or you shoot in multiple things. In a way, I'm more critical of that than I am of the speed of bike because that's something simple. Yeah. I mean, look, the speed of bike is more interesting and having it go between planets rather than just from this mountain to the nearby mountain is also more interesting. And so, look, I mean, the effects often don't come off at all, but you know, it's Doctor Who. It's interesting how the Sonic's used here too. against those soldiers with the blue energy and all that sort of thing. It's much more of a weapon type thing. I love the fact that it seems like it's costing Matt physical effort to hold the Sonic up under the door and that's actually really funny. like that's an actually sort of fun beer. Yeah, it's a good moment, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, withholding back the vigil. There was a scripted explanation that was cut basically because it was an exposition speech during a fight. Yeah, like we're not going to do that. And that is the vigil, they've got those grill like mouths because they're speakers. They're attacking with sonic energy. Ergo, the Sonic can counteract that and the doctor says, it's like noise cancelling headphones. And Clara says, what a noise cancelling. doesn't know about tech. We'll start with Clara. What's the Internet? Voice cancelling headphones. Yeah, she's very non-techy. Brandon, that's brilliant. That's just improved this story. And the thing is, the effects. Once I read that, I thought about the effect. It's like, yeah, he's absolutely making a bubble around. And he does comment with the door that it's based on an audio lock which for a culture based around song makes sense. And later, Mary, you know, remembers a song about a secret passageway and that opens the secret passageway. And that's the kind of alien thought logic that you get way back in the web planet. A silent wall. We must make mouths in it with our guns so it will speak more light. You know, and for me, that that beauty and effort to imagine what a different culture would emphasise and make important makes up for the deficiencies in this episode. This kind of is a bit where planetish in that there's some imagination happening. And I'm all on board for that. But you mentioned the singing, and I think that is another major reason why people don't like it because people don't come to Dot 2 for singing in general. I do quite like it because I think it's done quite nicely and I think it's an imaginative idea, but the episode is heavily focussed on it. I like that, though, because it does sort of work well with the rest of the sort of fantasy environment and it is literally magic isn't it? You aren't to certain words in certain patterns. You do a ritual that you can't make a mistake in. All of those things are features of magic and religious ritual. And I think that it works really well too, because the music is great. And it means something to me retrospectively because it's the music that's used during Matt's regeneration. And that makes me very sad. So it has resonance. First time through, I just gave up with the singing. I was going, oh, please. But I really agree with you. I really think it's beautiful and I don't love the way it's actually used now. Do you remember that exchange in a Christmas carol, where the doctor gives space reasons why the shark is carved by Catherine Jenkins seeing and the fish start biting him to make him stop doing it because the real reason is the sharks love the singing. And here, I just think the worst thing that you could possibly do is space reasons to explain away how the singing works. The singing works because it's magic. The singing works because it's a bunch of people together, all doing something and it's meant to placate this sort of horrible thing and it works because we've all joined together despite our different backgrounds and stuff like that. We've all brought something to sacrifice, and that has an effect on the monster, which is also magical. Yeah. And it ties in with the concept of sentimental value as currency because all of these people are singing with sentiment. You know, they're singing because they love the grandfather, you know what I mean? And they think that this is what the grandfather wants. And both Moffatt and RTD to this point had both been critical of religion, but also praising religion, like in gridlock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? And so I think what it sort of makes clear is, you know, Doctor Who is not anti-religion. And sometimes people pick up on stories like this or, you know, the whole plot with the silence and kind of point to Doctor Who and you know, Doctor Who's saying religion is bad. It's like, no, no, no. You know, Doctor Who is saying it's a pile of good things and a pile of bad things. And when it's good, it's beautiful. Do you remember that exchange where the doctor says to Clara, they think that this is where all life in the universe came from, and she kind of pins him, tries to pin him down on whether it's true or not. And he says it's a lovely story. And so that does introduce the idea of like religion as a source of truth or not. Yeah And, you know, when they're over with the creature, we think is the grandfather at the time. and the tenor is still desperately singing to try and put him to sleep and the doctor sort of sits down in front of him. And the subtext of the conversation is basically like, you didn't do anything wrong, but you can't do anything now. I've got this. You're okay. And he, you know, he doesn't do it by destroying the guy's belief he doesn't do it by tearing him down and saying, you know, you're a stupid idiot. He respects the effort and belief that this guy has put into his life. And it's it's not his fault that he's been lied to and deceived. Yeah. And it's not his fault that he's believed the lie. The doctor's just like, no, I will handle this. You know, you get out of here to save yourself. And it's really a lovely and sweet moment. It's like so much of this episode, I think it goes against expectations. You know, there are stories where we have, you know, evil gods or things that aren't gods and the doctor decries them and what have you. But here, I think he recognises the differences this guy's motivation is pure. I actually cried watching that little moment this time because this guy basically has no character, you know. His whole life is this, and it's all we see him doing, and it's been destroyed. And in just a few lines between them, there's acknowledgement there's respect, there's acceptance. Yeah, this story is a lot cleverer than I gave it credit for going in. And also, it's not any kind of singing. I mean, they're not all getting together and singing love in the 1st degree drama. It's a hymn, a long song. And so it sort of plays into that. And I think it's quite beautiful, actually. Like, I'm an atheist, but I sometimes, jealousy is not the right word. But I sometimes wish I had... The certainty. The sort of quiet faith and serenity that I see, for instance, that my grandmother's had who were religious, you know, and I, it's not it's something I've decided not to pursue because I know I wouldn't really be believing in it. But I think this story highlights that that is possible and that is a net positive. But it does it without, it does it without judgement. It doesn't say it's a good thing or a bad thing. It says it's a good thing for these people and it works for these people. Yeah, I mean, it's like gridlock, isn't it? It is like gridlock, which has prophecies and all sorts of things that come true. It has the people singing a Christian hymn together. And the doctor's reaction is, you know, this is just here to prevent you from doing anything about the situation that you find yourself in. But Martha's response is that this is kind of an expression of human solidarity that these people use to sustain themselves. And so the religious trappings of this, and the fact that it all works via magic, I think, kind of raises those questions without sort of properly answering them, and that's a good thing. Also, the trappings of religion can have their own social effect even without the religion. So people gain together who never go to church, but go to church on Christmas Eve to enjoy the carols and the hymns and that, that can have its own cohesive effect and there's nothing more social. You know, the great social activities, people singing together. Can we talk about the end? So the climax. Is that all right? Oh, so did you want to... No, I'm just enjoying this discussion of religion. I think it's really interesting. I'm always reminded of Major Kira on Deep Space 9 and that performance and the way that character was crafted by none of visitor and the writers, in that she had that absolute faith and certainty in that grounding in that character over those 7 years. That's a performance that I always look to. But the stuff you were saying, Brendan, yeah. It's quite affecting. I think there's a lot here that you can miss if you just take it at surface level. But let's go on to the actual climax of this whole thing, which is giving Matt Smith a huge speech. I don't like his delivery of this speech at all. And I guess, what are we trying to do? Are we trying to recreate the speech from the Pandoraca opens which I think is a remarkable performance. Like it's really quite extraordinary. It's rainy, there's flashing lights ahead. He's got this big microphone thing. He's talking as if he's addressing a massive crowd of people and he does it in all sorts of surprising ways. And I think it works really well. It's because it's in Pandora Opens. It's a dramatic speech, which is given a grandstanding delivery by Matt, and this is a grandstanding speech. Yeah, yeah. Also, I think that, you know, the Pandora speech is so incredibly well directed as well with all those shots from above and stuff like that. Here, he's like on a studio set. It's much more constrained and the speech, I think, is a bit crummy. Like it is a little bit kind of, I don't know, it's philosophical. It's hard to know how a character would, like, what does he want? you know, like it's, I don't know. In the Pandorica speech, right? He's desperate to scare these people off despite the fact that he has no plan and no weapons and these are all of his enemies and stuff. So there's a character thing to do. Here, he's just kind of saying a lot of platitudes and I just don't think he pulls it off. He's saying it so that, you know, ultimately it will fail, so that Clara will come. That's the reason why. And that makes the speech fail. But we've talked about this, Nathan, the fact that we're now at the point where the writers are writing moments for Matt. And so here's a big speech for him rather than the Pandorica, where site yet unseen. Yeah, yeah. And I just think that also without his team of River Amy and Rory in this 2nd half of the season, they're trying to give Matt these moments to sort of carry the episode. I think he works so much better when he's got the Paternoster game with him because he's not having, like, he can bounce off different things and come up with different things and it's much more organic when it's just him and Clara. Yeah. Then he has to carry the workload and then just making it about his performance and what he can do. Oh, this is a Matt Smith thing, whether he's twirling around or whatever. And I think, and I don't say this in a horrible way. But this is the moment for me that Matt begins to go off the boil in terms of what comes next. I just think I kind of begin to go, oh, it's a Matt Smith thing. Matt Smith thing in episodes coming up because he has to carry much more of the action because there's only the 2 of them. I'm not saying that's a bad thing because I think Matt's brilliant. But back to this. This is, I totally agree with you. It doesn't quite work. Yeah, I think this is the moment for me as well, where I start to think he's not pulling it off. And I don't think it's entirely Matt's fault. I don't think it's a good speech. It's just the fact he doesn't have Amy and Rory and River. That sort of was the nucleus of his performance. And now he's having to he's having to strike out on his own. But it's what you were saying, Nathan. I don't think the writings all that good. It feels a bit fan servicey, this kind of speech. Oh yeah, he's talking about that bit. They should have just gone further. You know, I've walked in universes where Stephen and Dodo acted like simpletons while playing hopscotch. Stuff like that. But it all felt a bit lame. Yeah, yeah. I think it needed it needed precision. Like, I walked in universes where the laws and physics had gone mad. No, I've walked in universes where the earth died in flame. Yeah. Perhaps what it needed was that Stephen Muffin needed to come in and actually rewrite this heavily and I don't think that's necessarily happened. Yeah. It was almost worse. Oh, yeah. It was almost worse. Something about Stephen and Dodo. No? Not the speech. The speech was the same in the draft. In the draft, it worked. In the draft, that destroyed Akaten. And it was Stephen Moffat who said, no, this is Clara's 1st trip. Clara needs to be integral to the solution. And the leaf had already been invented as part of the thing. And the whole thing with the leaf was Clara wouldn't give it up. So it gave away the ring instead. But she still had the leaf at the end. you know, and then Stephen Moffatt said to Neil. It's like, what if it looks like it works, but then Clara has to come over and use the leaf and explain what the leaf is. And he's like, of course, why didn't I think of that? And we get that. And that's the successful part of the ending. Yeah. Yeah. It really is the beast below, isn't it? Because Amy has the same function at the end. But without the doctor being a bloody moron. But yes, yes. And I think that's why I like it more than the beast below because it's not, oh, that's big cool. See, my problem with the beast below is Amy's solution is clever but it's diminished by the fact that the doctor can't see the obvious. Whereas here, with everything we know, what the doctor has suggested should work. And it doesn't because the creature is infinite. But you know, the doctor thinks, oh, I can engorge it and make it explode, but it's like, no, no, no, your experiences are still finite. And Clara provides the infinite. And so the doctor's failure is a noble heroic failure rather than a failure of failing to understand the situation. But we're told that it eats your soul and that your soul is made up of stories. And so we feed it on things that have sentimental value and stuff like that because they're our stories. That's what our soul is about. And we're all very scared of it. But Matt gives his big speech and then what, he's fine? Well, he is time lord. But do you know what I mean? They're selling us some danger here that just never eventuates. He gives his big speech and then, you know, Jenna comes on and says, you know, move out of the way. I'll fix this. And she gives a better speech too. You're right, Todd, in that because this speech has to fail. It's not the climax of the episode, right? So he can't give a better speech than her. She has to give a better speech and perhaps it needs to be more heartfelt as well because it's about all of the things that never happened, all of the days that her mother never got to experience. And so it makes you wonder why they don't just keep grandfather in check by basically reciting their life stories. That's all it needs to. And like this is not the sort of thing that is going to hold up to even sort of fairly gentle scrutiny, I think. But like as far as the story goes. It's not clear what's at stake. Is Matt sacrificing his life for the sake of everyone else and Clara comes in and stops him from doing that. But no one seems to be under threat at all. It's just not clear what danger grandfather poses. Can you fry something for me? Like when they do dispense with grandfather, does that mean that whole son's gone and so... Yeah, I wanted that too. The whole system just collapses and nobody can live there. Please, the laws of unintended concerts. It does disappear, doesn't it? And it is completely dark. Yeah. And from what I can see, it was never considered a problem in the scripting state. It's not like there's a missing scene with the doctor saying, well you know, he just took over the sun. It's a normal son that he was living on. It's like, no, it's gone and we just go back to London. No more days sunbathing for Dory. Do you remember that thing where? You know, the doctor tries to go, oh, you know, I've seen bigger. And Clara goes, what, really? He said, no, this is massive. That was brilliant. is really great. I mean, I think it has to be a gas giant, isn't it? It's got rings. Yeah, that makes sense. So it goes away. It's still like, you know, like gravitational collapse, but we're absolutely asking the wrong questions about the thing, I think. I think, but I do think it is worth asking. We don't know what threat's being posed here, like what the problem is. There is word peril. Mary says that grandfather will get out and feed on the souls of the 7 planets and then go forward through the universe and that's what one of the old songs says. Yeah. But, you know, I think it's while the vigil are going, and while the song's going... So it's a bit hard to hit. And this is why people don't like it because the stakes are not defined and so it feels a bit silly and it's all being held in check by singing and so it feels a bit silly. It's all shot against green screen and so it feels a bit silly, et cetera. But it's not. I like it. I like it too, but it's what Russell says about Zog monsters on the planet Zog. Yeah, Dog Monster, isn't she? And the thing is... I think you can get away with it occasionally. And I think we do get away with here. The 1st half has the same confidence as last week. It's like, yep, we are putting 20 different aliens on screen for you and you're going to enjoy it and that one has lights in his face and this one barks and rents out mopeds. Actually, it reminds me a bit of snake dance and we, you know, we made a snake dance joke earlier. Do you know what it reminds me? Oh, Dragonfire. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's a criticism we made of Eric Saywood back in the day was that he wanted everything to be really sensible. And it was like, even Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, who was like, I don't want silliness and I want science, still writes, let's materialise the TARDIS and underwater and open the door. right. Let's get out of a time loop by acting it out. Yeah, yeah. Those are brilliant big bonkers ideas, which is what Doctor Who needs, and that's what we have here. And, you know, with the whole, so are they all dead now? It's like, nah, something happened and they're fine. You know, we know they're fine or else it's a matter of, oh, they wanted me to have my ring back. Yes, because they're all dead, Clara. We blew up a sun, Morty. I think getting the ring back from all of them is a beautiful moment. Yes. Maybe that's the rings of Akatown. Or the keys of marinace. Or the hats of the archi man drive. I like the fact that this is the 2nd episode in a road that's concerned with ringing the title. What will next week then? It's so nice to all Matt's little moment with the beano. Yeah, yeah. That remind me of Delta and the Bannerman with Murray. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I've got the dog 2 magazine, 1981 summer special, by the way. I should have been reading. It's got a profile of this new producer, JNT. And I think an examination of the other rooms in the Tartars. Oh my god. Nothing's changed. At the end, does Clara realised that the doctor was at the grave? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Does it make her suspicious? I can't remember. I just wrote it down. Yeah. She asks him about it and he says you remind me of someone I someone I lost, someone who died. And her response is, well, no, I'm Clara. If I'm travelling, I'm not a replacement. And he's like, no, no, no. It's, look, it's fine. It's just that that's, I had to check. And she's like, okay. So it's actually a refreshing moment because, yeah, he didn't tell Amy about the flesh pregnancy thing. He didn't tell Amy that her house didn't make sense, but here he's questioned up front and he goes, you know, this is the situation. And he does basically tell her everything he currently. knows about it, except that she was in another time, but Clara can probably guess at that. I think, though, it is at this point made very clear to the doctor that Clara is just a normal person. He's seen her childhood, he's seen the funeral. He's met her, he's heard her speak. She tells him that she's not those other people or that other person, who he remembers, but he still sort of persists. And so it's another one of the Moffatt hiding the resolution in plain sight things. Turns out she's just completely normal and in no way impossible and it's just in the season finale. She does something remarkable. Yeah, but it's just her. Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. We'll be back next week for the best of Ultravox in Cold War. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody InterTara, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. Until next time, remember to respect the Todd experience, because one day, it might just happen to you. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Good night. That was Flight Through Entirety, sir, and Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and Brendan Jones, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. This episode, there's an apostrophe, was recorded on the 29th of May 2022 and released on the 11th of September. We all enjoyed the Rings of Ackerson, but due to its eccentric ideas about planetary physics. Please don't mention it to American astrophysicist and Notorious internet pedant Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Seriously, we'll never hear the end of it. But the doctor is basically a giver. He gives people these experiences where all the other grandfather does his take. Yeah, yeah. And they're both impossibly old. So he's a giver, not a taker. He's a given on a taker. that's right God, we're filthy today. We. Just wait until you hear what he said about Celia Emery. And if Nathan had to cut it, that could be... She was fantastic in that scene at the end. Yeah. It's a little girl. Just heartbreaking. They should have cast her as merry. I felt really wistful with that mention.