Fluffy Bums

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast that's read with the blood of humanity. We really should go and have a bath. I'm Nathan. I'm Brendan. I'm Mark. And I'm Jack. Well, it's 1983. Margaret Thatcher has just been reelected, Ultravox's 1st breakup is still 4 years away, and somewhere in BBC Television Centre Peter, Mark, and Janitor shooting the final episode of Warriors of the Deep. So have we learnt anything about how to make top quality Doctor Who in the last 30 years, let's find out as we discuss Cold War. So, I have a feeling that this is very, very, very early on in Jenna Coleman's career in Doctor Who. Is this the 1st episode she shoots or the 2nd? It's certainly long before snowman, is that right? Yeah, that's right. So this is the 2nd episode she shoots. So they have just shot Hyde, and during production of this, Matt was rushing off to shoot pickups for Hyde, and also rushing off to do additional dialogue recording for the power of 3 with Karen and Arthur. Oh my god. So while this is going on, he's working with all his companions on various things because the complete history doesn't go into detail on this particular entry, but it is because of the massive restructuring needed for the power of 3 because Stephen Burkoff is mad. He refused to do his job. Yeah, as we have mentioned earlier this year. And on Bonfinger. Douglas McKinnon was having to do some work as well, wasn't he, on the power of 3 while he was working on this as well? Oh, okay. Because he did both of those. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. And that's part of the reason they waited until now to do those ADR pickups. Okay. as well as assessing the damage, basically, because in TV you know, once you realise something isn't working, you don't necessarily immediately order a pickup, you figure out how much of it isn't working to know how much you have to reshoot. That temporal displacement for Matt Smith feels very appropriate for this episode, given the presence of Tobias Menzies in this episode. It's like Matt Smith's career, past, present, and future, and very very far in the future and the crown happening all at once. Yeah, yeah. So we have the 2 Prince Phillips. And we have Prince Charles getting killed before the opening credits by Scaldak. I wanted to call him Maldak. No, no. Is that a character from Vengeance on Faros? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's the one who is the lead cannibal in Torchwood after that. Oh, okay. Owen Teal. That's delightful So how do we feel about Jenna, this episode? Well, what really struck me about this episode is that it feels, at least Clara on the page still feels like Clara Oswald being written to like an audition brief, essentially, which is that we want an actor who can keep up pace with Matt Smith in the dialogue department. So, you know, there are lots of scenes where, um, you know particularly at the beginning when the uh, submarine is sinking you have all these like snappy little back and forth between Jenna and Matt and it doesn't really change throughout the episode. And, um, so it feels like Jenna's Coleman's been given the singular objective of keeping up pace with Matt Smith throughout the episode, which, as it turns out, because Jenna Coleman is a wonderful actor, she does with great aplomb. It's interesting for her character arg that this is the story where she gets to grip with how to handle fear, given where she ends up, where she's very fearless and reckless, that, you know it's the tips from the older character about how he handles fear by singing and things like that. She's very afraid in this one. And I think it's probably a counterpoint of the people who find her a bit too smug and fearless a lot of the time. This, you know, when she sees the dead bodies and she says, well this, this suddenly got very real, didn't it, that it isn't just like a jolly romp. But what I remembered when I watched it, again, was after the Rings of Akitan went out the week before, Paul Cornell tweeted hello, the new Sarah Jane. And then when you watch this episode, that's really reinforced because she goes through 2 sort of big Sarah Jane moments where she questions how they can understand Russian in this case. And she also says, well, we know the world didn't end in 1983. Is it? Why is it cool? So, so why does it matter what we do? And that sort of reinforced, you know, the idea that that, you know, maybe they're going for a modern day Sarah Jane with Clara? I think that there is a kind of thing where she is really generic. You remember when Bob Holmes 1st writes for Perry and the 6th doctor in the 2 doctors, Perry's like frighteningly generic, I think, there's not very much to her beyond her performance. And that's often what the classic series does. And it's a little bit unusual for the new series that has really very strongly defined characters to have someone kind of be as generic as Jenna. And like, I think she does do one or 2 things that are unusual. I think the way she volunteers to speak to the ice warrior when neither the captain nor the doctor can get away with doing it and she kind of volunteers and goes in and does it and even sort of takes over. She's being directed, isn't she, by Matt, but she, you know, does some of her own things. And then the other striking thing that she does is the doctor says stay here. And she sort of says, yeah, all right. And then he goes, no, no, really actually stay here. Yeah, sure, like whatever. And so she doesn't, you know, but she's, even that is defining her against the companion role. She is very, very definitely the new companion here. It's interesting because throughout the drafts of this script, she slowly becomes more involved in the plot. So for Mark Gatis's original write-up, 1st of all, she was still Beryl, the Victorian governess. And so there was going to be a lot of sort of things of, you know Beryl would have a clever moment where she figures out that the Cold War is possibly a result of action in the Crimea in her time. She's like, well, if the Crimea situation blows up, that could lead to this. But it was things like the doctor was the one who went to talk to Scaldak. Beryl was left alone in a room to protect her, but then the ice warrior comes in like with Victoria. And it was sort of with each subsequent draft. She was given more to do. So yeah, I think part of the reason Gator's kind of right, so generically, is it all he had to go on with Jenna's audition tape? Because when he was writing, she hadn't filmed anything yet. And it seems like a lot of the action she's given such as talking to Skaldak came about with discussions with Stephen Moffat and later with General Louise Coleman herself. Like apparently at the read-through is when the decision was made that she would talk to Scaldak. Like, it was already on the cards, but they're like, Matt, Jenner what do you think? Who should do this? And Jenna said, well, well, I'm up for it. Matt said, well, she should do it because she's only just started. And I like that this is the 1st time that she admits that she's scared because as much as what's gone on in the last 2 episodes you know, in Bells of St. John, she's in London. In Rings of Acha 10. She only faces real physical danger when she rushes into it. Yeah. In this situation. She's been plonked in it, and she's got no choice but to face it. So it's kind of building up the danger towards the character. And with what you said, Mark, about sort of her later risky behaviour, there is actually a deleted line where the doctor asks you know, how are you after dealing with the scaldax situation? And she basically says that was terrifying and I felt so alive. And I kind of read that. I'm like, 0 my god, that's faced the Raven 3 years early, that is. And it's not the, it's actually not the only thing that was dropped from this that will be recycled in series nine, but I'll come back to that later. I have to say that I think that this might be the point where I kind of lose it with the standalone movie style premises for the series. And I think that they were, you know, they were very clearly a reaction against the very complex plotting in series 6 and to a lesser extent in series 5. And I think because we were working towards the 50th anniversary thing and because we were splitting the season over 2 years. He just decided to kind of pull back a little bit. And that worked very well, I think, in the 1st half of the season because there is an arc, and the arc is about Rory and Amy kind of growing out of the doctor, like growing away from him, and that relationship changing. Here, you've got a character who has a mystery to her. We've seen her twice already, but because that's a kind of red herring, you know, Moffatt likes to leave the answers to his mysteries lying in plain sight. And next week will be told by Jessica Rain that in fact, you know she is just a normal person. And so there's a real kind of genericness and a real kind of reluctance to pin her down with any sort of particular characteristics. And so, you know, I think that that is a throwback to the classic series, and it is, I think, why Cornell called her, the Sarah Jane for the Modern era, or something, because Sarah Jane has a three line bio, but basically is Elizabeth Slayton's performance. And I'm not complaining. I love Jenna's performance generally. You know, I think she's really great and I like her in this, but I just find this a little bit less satisfying because it goes for 40 minutes and then doesn't go anywhere. I'm watching the wrong show. Am I watching the wrong show? I think the, probably, probably works well in season 7B as well because the, the sort of arc because it was broadcast in the 50th anniversary year is to have sort of the rings of Aka 10, It's got some 1st doctor callbacks, doesn't it? where it's the 1st time he mentions being a grandfather for a long time. It's quite heavy on the exploration earlier on in the episode which is like Hart and all, then this has got the HAD system, the Ice Warriors, the base under siege. And next week we've got a scientific advisor and a metabolist crystal and a country house. And it sort of goes on like that way, each episode is a little of a mild homage to each one. So having maybe a more 20th century style companion fits with that for the time being as well in some way. Yeah. I suppose what occurs to me about, because, you know, the whole gimmick of series 7 as a whole is that it's like movie of the week kind of thing. Um, uh, and I feel what occurs to me in the transition between series 7 A and series 7 B is that you go from, in series 7 A, of like movie of the week. And I think here, because maybe it's because it's in 2013, and, you know, it's got the whole anniversary year kind of feel to it. It goes from being movie of the week to the most movie version of this particular type of Doctor Who story. In this case, the most movie version of a base under siege story of a Trouton based under siege, complete with ice warriors and everything. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think it does a reasonably good job of that. Yeah, yeah, it's it's incredibly entertaining. When I arrived here tonight, 1st thing I said to Nathan was, I'm 3 for 3 on enjoying this episode a lot more than I did last time. The Todd experience. Tod experience. Good God, Cold War. You know, I'm going to have to grow my hair out. Yeah, it's breathless and nonstop and sort of looking back on it. I can't think of that many major time jumps, you know, it's things like, oh, I'll go in and talk to him. No, no, absolutely not. You're not doing that, Clara standing in front of an open door. Yeah, of course. There's no kind of, okay, this is what we're going to do, slow fade, and they've set up like the bucket of feathers above the door, kind of booby trap nonsense. And even though it is playing on old tropes. Hi, Simon, it wears them very much on its sleeve. So, you know, the monster in the ice as well as being the ice warriors, it's the thing from another world. Yeah. Hunt for Red October. is present throughout. You've got the base under siege. But instead of the intransigent base commander, you've got the intransigent base subcommander. Yeah, yeah. You know, um, uh, like Zukov is understandably suspicious of the doctor, but as soon as there's enough evidence to go, oh, actually no, this guy's probably telling the truth, like, okay, you know how to get us out of this. Get us out of this. Whereas, um, Steppishin is like, not suspicious all the way through, et cetera, et cetera. I'd forgotten he dies off screen. I thought he was kind of with the ice warrior at the end going, no no, we're going to blow up the world together. And it's one area where I think the breakneck pace sort of falls apart because he just kind of disappears. But also in his little in his little wallet, he's got a photo of presumably his girlfriend and a photo of Lenin. The 2 loves of his life. That's nice. Isn't that sweet? We don't know which is which. Like in what way, but that's fine. There you go. I like to think it's Lenin. That's a better story My dearly departed Lenin. So you might have expected Zukov to be the one that died as well because he is the reasonable one that the doctor can communicate with and be replaced by Steppishin, who he's going to have a much harder time convincing. So it's that is a slight sort of difference to the formula as well isn't it? But the quality of those actors as well, that they've got Liam Cunningham and Tobias. Is it Bias Menzies, yeah. I think it's Menzies. Sometimes you see Menzes is pronounced Mingus, isn't it? But I don't know if that's a Celtic thing or something like that. And they've seen... Yeah, I don't know how he pronounced. I'm just thinking of Australian Prime Ministers here. So I don't know. Yeah, yeah. We had a very long-term Australian Prime Minister in a second. La longest. It was a very long time. Very long time. For me, this was before I saw Liam Cunningham and Tobias Menzies in Game of Thrones. Right. And Liam Cunningham plays one of my favourite characters in Game of Thrones, who is a sea captain. So it's interesting to have him here doing that as well. Something I felt a little disappointed by watching this a 2nd time in Stargate in season four, 1st episode. It opens with a sequence on board a Russian submarine done entirely in Russian and not translated, no subtitles or anything and then they get attacked by a monster and that's the last you see of them. And I'm kind of like, it would have been really interesting to have those opening scenes with the Russians going through the drill in Russian until the Tartar arrives. I get, look, I get why they didn't. Well, they just didn't want to do Hunt for Red October, which is exactly what happens in Hunt for real. Yeah, that's a good point, actually. So they probably didn't want to do that. And I think too, it's actually kind of cute that perhaps we think about Clara speaking in Russian for the 1st time when she claims not to speak in Russian in that bit that you alluded to before Mark, where she's sort of surprised by her ability to speak and understand Russian and doesn't quite believe that she's doing it. And I think we want to not hang a hat on it because of course the TARDIS disappears quite early on in the episode, but leaves them still completely able to understand and speak Russian. So I think that's one we just don't want to press too hard on probably. Yeah, yeah. And also there was a cut line where while Clara is asking all these questions about why she can speak it points at Lee and Cunningham and says them, why does he have an accent? right. That's one of my favourite things, though, of course, is where they use sort of regional accents or different classes of accents in English to represent. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, he's actually like has Nanette ancestry or something. Yeah, you know. One of my favourite films is The Death of Stalin. Um, and I remember Armando Ianucci talking about um, why uh, he allowed this real diverse ensemble of British and American actors to play these Russian figures from history in their natural voices because he said to instruct them to speak in a generic Russian accent or all have one uniform accent doesn't really represent, you know, the Soviet Union, because the Soviet Union is a hugely diverse region with a lot of diverse acc and languages. So he thought that actually allowing all the actors to speak in their natural dialects is actually more truthful to Russia itself if you're doing an English translation of the whole Soviet Union. You just can't get actors to do that sort of cod Russian accent to represent me in Russian. Either, can you? I mean it's so stupid. And like, maybe we're just sort of surprised by it because it used to be the rule. Like, you just used to have it, just not to mention Bondfinger, but in an episode of Bondfinger, that we're going to record quite soon. There are all these English actors doing these outrageous French accents to represent conversations in French between French speaking people and it just looks stupid. So I think they make the right call. And, of course, part of the point of this episode is the just the massive overcasting. You know, you've got these incredibly great actors up against this wretched space lizard. And I just think that's one of the best things about it. I'd forgotten James Norton's in this as well, who's become a much bigger name since this episode went out to the extent that he's been talked about as a potential future bond as well. a relatively small part in this one. Yeah, he's the leading Grantchester, isn't he? Yeah, I think so. Happy Valley and you've been in a couple of movies and things as well since then. Because at 1st in the low lighting, I thought, no, no, he's way too young to be Jason Fleming. No. He does look a bit like Jason Fleming. One thing that I did, which, again, it kind of gets at my somewhat difficulty with the characterisation in this story, because I think it is all fairly surface level, if I'm honest, I think it is fair. fairly superficial characterisation. There's not much depth to it. But one thing I did kind of appreciate is that for a story that deals with, you know, you've got the archetypal base commander you've got the archetypal sort of lieutenant, lieutenant who's a bit kind of, no, we... I did appreciate that it did stray away from the kind of cliche Russian Soviet villainous of that it could have gone for. I did actually quite like Liam Cunningham's speech about how, you know, they have a responsibility, not just they have a responsibility for the world. And, you know, that for humanity. And, you know, again, it's not to suggest that there's anything too revolutionary happening there. I did appreciate the gesture to, oh, you know, these are people you know, they're not just purely archetypes. They love their children too, bread. Yeah. Can we talk about the big cast member whom we've only just mentioned, and that is David Warner? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he was another surprise to me coming back. Like my memory. was that basically he just had a couple of jokes you know. Yeah, we've wasted David Water and I said that a couple of weeks ago. actually. when I was referring to, you know, Celia Imory taking on the David Warner role, but actually having stuff to do. Is that what we're referring you to from now on, the David Water roll? David Waterroll. But the fascinating thing is watching it back, you know, he gets to lighten the mood in the teaser and introduce this idea that all of these people are people. Yeah, you know. And he forms a bit of a friendship with Clara and there's all those bits where he's trying to get her to relax about the situation. And that wonderful bit where you think that he's going to go rogue and kind of interrogate Clara and will have to be clobbered with a torch or something. And he's just like, well, Ultravox state together. The thing is, like, I did remember that moment, but in my head it's like Clara starts laughing and he doesn't understand why she's laughing because he's actually very serious. But no, you watch it again and he's like, no, that is totally to get you to focus on the hero now. And it's really well done in a way that I think only David Warner can bring that. And I do have something interesting about his casting. Because this was another idea that was dropped. So, like, the original script had the Russian sub going to a scientific research base, and David Warner was the only person left alive and brought back this Ice Warrior. The thing is, though, he was bringing it back because he'd already reported it to Moscow and they wanted the Ice Warrior. So he killed everyone else on board the base. So he's the villain, right? Mark Gator sends, um, well, he's writing the script because he knows David Warner asks him, hey, I want you in my Doctor Who story. It's this scientist who finds an iceware and Dave is like, oh yeah great, great. And as the script went through, it like lost all these details. So it was going to be a British sub looking for them, lost that. And one of the details it lost was Grushenko being the villain. And then David gets the final script and comes up to Mark and he's like, oh, look, you know, this is a really great part and I'm really glad not to be playing a villain this time. So him being the villain is the thing I'm referring to earlier that Mark Gatas then recycles in Sleep No More. Ah, yeah. It's Rasmussen's plot in sleep no more. And I've just found that really interesting that obviously Mark Gatis has gone, oh, okay, not going to include that this time. File it away and do it here. That would have been quite a creepy ending for Sleep No More, where it's, you know, it's David Water, who's rubbing his eyes and they're disintegrating it to sand. There's one beautiful bit where Clara says, are we going to be okay or is everything going to be all right and he just reassures her. He just openly says, yes, everything's going to be fine. And it's like the doctor's job to normally do that. And usually this doctor at least will acknowledge that he's telling a lie, or that he's just kind of making it up, but he's so absolutely kind of sincere and heartfelt when he says it. I thought it was really kind of striking. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's the one who's being threatened that, and Clara calls Scaldak off. Like, Scarlac's about to kill him and Clara kind of rescues him which I think is pretty great. And we've already found out like a couple of scenes ago, what that entails. If Scaldac's going to kill you. Cut up. Yeah, it's not pleasant. Dismantled. Yeah. Can we talk about the Ice Warriors or the Ice Warrior? It's always been my feeling that they are supremely low effort villains, and I think it's Xander who says that they're robot lizards from Mars or something, for God's sake. I mean, it couldn't be less imaginative, probably. How do you feel they come across here though? I think it's interesting because yeah, you read the complete history and Stephen Moffat was resisting having the back, but for that reason, that they are a very stereotypical Doctor Who villain. They're sort of big green men from Mars, like you say. So it feels like to some extent, Margatus is working hard, as Rob Sheaman did with Dalek, to make them credible again, but to prove to Stephen Moffat that they can be a good recurring villain almost. So, uh, he really sort of, um, I mean, you get some of the, some of the beats from Dalek where it's chained up and things. But I think he does a really good job of bringing them back like that. And I think some of the dialogue, like the, by the moons and stuff like that, it stops just short of being Galaxy Quest, doesn't it work? while giving them a bit of colour and a bit of their own culture when he talks about the songs of the red sands and all that kind of stuff. It's a nice little bit of world building. And I think, again, there was some stuff cut where they talked about the final battle that he's on his way home from with that which is in the book. The doctor, his lives and times. So I'd access some of that stuff. So it's in there and it talks about this battle where he's where he's with his daughter and he decapitates his opponent and all that kind of stuff. So, uh, yeah, it's, um, I think they do really well. And then the idea of him running around naked killing people as well. is something we haven't seen before with them. No, that's true. Yeah, the the early script stuff where they say he moves as fast as a gecko. You don't really get that, but you do get the sense of how much faster he is. He's slow and lumbering in his armour. But when he flies past Clara, he's a different type of threat. He's fast. He can sort of hide in the ducts and things. So it's, uh, yeah, I think they do a real good job with it. I think that there is a real kind of attempt to rehabilitate those stupid costumes from the 60s because one of the things about them was you could never tell where the lizard ended and the armour began. And, you know, they were fluffy. They had like fluffy bums and stuff like that. And you could never, you know, like it was all a bit unclear and clearly no one in the production team really cared. And here Gatis wants to kind of make him a bit more credible. And I think, like, I think the fingers are pretty great, you know like while Skaldax talking, and the voice, like it's some Nicholas Briggs again, doing a scary monster voice, and it sounds great. He sounds so good. Yeah, and I know that, um, I seem to remember, because as Mark's already pointed out, Stephen Moffatt was initially, because I know I, from what I remember, Mark Gatis was very enthusiastic about bringing the ice warriors back. Um, and Stephen Moffatt was very resistant. I believe he said something to the effect of the ice Warriors are what non-fans think of as bad Doctor Who monsters. Um, and, and... That's the most amazing reason for that. And one of the things, and I do think it's interesting because I believe one of the things he singled in on was the voice because they have that kind of whispery kind of, I will get you, doctor kind of voice to them. And that is one of the things they change. They give them this kind of deeper growl to them. But similarly with the armour as well, which, you know, is in the classic series, is this very stiff, rigid kind of, I can't remember what it's made out of. It's like kind of it's fibre. It's fibre, like a massive hunk of fibre glass. It was made by a boat killer. But I did think it was interesting from, uh, because, you know they don't up, you know, they update the design, but they kind of they don't reimagine it. They don't reinvent it in in the same way. I don't know, they reinvent the macra, I guess, to go for another Trouton villain. But in this script, rather than run away from the run away from the suit, I suppose, there is a specific beat when, you know, the ice warrior leaves its suit. And there's a lot of emphasis put on how shameful that is for an ice warrior to leave the crummy Doctor Who costume. It's like, this is the greatest shame you could possibly commit an ice warrior culture. It's to live. Which I thought I did find interesting. And, you know, you see this later in the year in the 50th anniversary where, admittedly, this is a bit of a better monster design with the Zygons. They similarly don't feel the need to radically reinvent it. They can just kind of embrace it and just use more modern materials to update it. It's nice that the, because this is, presumably, the oldest ice warrior that we've seen. And he obviously waxes, whereas the later ones, they become a lot more body positive and they will just have that fur grow out of them. So it's nice to see that growth, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Neil Gordon did say with his redesign. Yeah, I'm not so sure about the child bearing hips. Get rid of those. Yeah, yeah. But I think part of what makes this such a success is both because Moffat had been objecting to the idea for so long and he and Mark Gatus are so close as colleagues. Mark has clearly made a note of the things Stephen doesn't like and it's like, okay, we're going to find out what's in the suit. And we're going to make sure that, okay, they're not just lumbering and you can get away from them with a brisk walk. Like, it's a deadly machine. And the hands are going to be more dextrous. All these little things. I think the other thing that made success to a success is that the spinoff media, the novels and big finish, had built up ice warrior culture so much. But there's not much specifically that I can say, you know, Mark Gatis nicked that from the judgement of IsCar or whatever. Basically, the only thing he takes as a whole concept is the cast system, which Gary Russell introduced in legacy, but he takes the sort of ideas and the spirit that people have come up with in these spinoff media and goes, okay, well, we've kind of got a culture that's been developed for them. that, you know, they're highly, they're highly honourable. They have this code where if you don't attack them, they won't attack you. Like they're not conquerors out for resources or anything like that. You know, it's it's all about the style of fighting and whether they see you as a worthy warrior or something to protect. I think that's what kind of makes it because a don't like or a cyberman will kill you just because you're there. Yeah. And Silurian will kill you because this is their planet. Whereas the ice warrior will only kill you if you stick a cattle prod, um, uh, the geckoes have koackers. The greatest events to like... Down to the left. What do we think of the CG head? Um, I remember being okay with it in 2013. I think I, I, I'm not sure how I feel about it now, but that's maybe, maybe it's unfair to kind of hold that to, you know, a post Disney. Okay, fine. You know what I mean? Like, it's fine. Yeah, I mean, I have to say that Russell always had a thing about mouths, you know, the oud have a big kind of bundle of tentacles and stuff because then they can speak without them having to animate their mouths and he'd obviously been bitten by his experiences with the savine way back in the that very 1st shooting block. So this is the 1st time. I think they've attempted to do a CG monster and try to synchronise the speech with it and I don't think it's very successful. I have to say. It does look a bit crap. Yeah, I think the problem that it, like, like full props too, is it, it's the milk, is it the milk that are doing the animation at this point? Um, like, full props to them for, you know, attempting to do a fully realised CGI alien face. I think the one of the big problems it runs into is that in that final moment, there is supposed to be this kind of tension between what Skaldax choice is going to be when he returns to the ice warrior ship and the animation of his face is incredibly stiff. So there is absolutely no indication of any nuance between what his decision is going to be. So I think part of the reason why I was also a bit kind of, ah, is because the reveal comes at a moment where Skaldak is supposed to be having this big change of heart and you literally cannot see it on that CG rubber face. Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a noble attempt because they even go to the trouble for that speech of motion capturing Nick Briggs to power the animation rig. Yeah. But during the shoot of the scene where it's grabbed David Warner and you can kind of see it through the smoke. They initially shot that with a facial puppet. But then Milk said, actually, we think we can do this CG. Right, okay. So I haven't been able to find anything about where they thought the puppet was unsatisfactory and that's why and that's why they dropped it. But having seen, for instance, 90s Godzilla films, where they made a twice human size Godzilla head and torso, which was a, which was a rod and hydraulic operated puppet. And they use that for close-ups, and that gets amazing emotion out of a giant lizard. And that is a feature film, but it's not a Hollywood feature film. Maybe the puppet was like that. I don't know. I'd be very interested in seeing the footage of the pub. It's telling that the CG model never comes back in the Empress of Mars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I do think the CGI is also partially harmed from the fact that you go from, you alternate between very obviously rubber hands to a very obviously CGI phase. I think I think that kind of whiplash between very practical to very digital kind of affects it as well. Not seamless. Yeah, yeah. I do like the way that when the helmet comes back over the face. It sort of tugs at it a little bit. Like it's like it's very tight and it sort of, you know, it's like when you if you take something off that's too tight and it sort of pulls your face up a bit and then that's quite well done and it helps to sell it a little bit, I think. imagine if you were standing in your work shoes for 5000 years. It's a bit like the speeder bikes last week. It's kind of like, oh, well, that didn't quite work, but I'm glad you tried. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, no one died, right? It's a bad Doctor Who effect. A shout out, by the way, to Spencer Wilding, who is the physical form of Scaldak in the suit, and he's previously been the minor tour in the God complex. Oh, we like him. And the Wooden King in Doctor the Widow on the Wardrobe. Oh, I like him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Nicholas Briggs was actually doing a theatre show at the time and recorded his lines in his dressing room, sent them down to Cardiff, and they played into the studio for Spencer to mime to. Oh, wow. Okay. So, you know, it is an acting performance and he has to get into that bloody suit, however many hours at a time. You know what I mean? Big shout out. I think he comes back for the Ice Warriors in Time of the Doctor and Empress of Mars as well because the suit is also made from his body cast. So you put another actor. It's not gonna fit as well. Actually, it doesn't quite fit, does it? The mouth's too high. But anyway, I digress. The suit itself was at the doctor experience for a while and it does look incredibly impressive in the flesh as well, as it were is a cool, imposing looking thing. I do think there is a somewhat interesting, more something I realised in hindsight after Margatus went on to write the Empress of Mars, which I do think is probably the better ice warrior Margator story of the two. I do think there is a, in hindsight, I do think there is an, an interesting tension in the script wanting to do the Dalek style where reintroducing a kind of slightly odd Doctor Who monster and make it kind of gripping and terrifying and you have this claustrophobic setting. You have the companion going in and confronting the monster. You have the monster, the reveal of what the monster is underneath the metallic. you have all that kind of stuff. The tension that Gaitas has is that he wants to do that, but I think he also wants to embrace the weirdness of the ice warriors as well. Because, you know, I think some of the best writing is when you've got Skaldak reminiscing about the songs of the snow, of the red snow or whatever it is. And it's like strange and kind of weird. And certainly I think when you get to Empress of Mars, You've got Margators fully embracing the kind of oddness of the ice Warriors and specifically the oddness of the ice Warriors in the Paladin stories, which makes them much more vivid characters as opposed to here where they are kind of introduced as kind of militaristic Doctor Who monster. How many have there been in 50 years at this point? Um, I wonder if part of the problem is that the brief that we've been given, which is an exciting film of a particular genre in 42 minutes or so means that we end up with a story that isn't actually about anything. And there is such low hanging fruit with the idea of Cold War, and we certainly do talk about Cold War and mutually assured destruction, and it is the mutually assured destruction thing that kind of wins the day. But it seems very muddy to me in some ways. And I can't see a very, like, there's not a very clear parallel drawn. I don't think. For me, that parallel is drawn with Kreshenko. Because Grushenko is clearly a scientist loyal to his own culture because he wants to bring this discovery home for the good of the Soviet Union. But at the same time, he's listening to Ultravox and Duran Duran and appreciating the culture of the West without judging it without dismissing it. And so you have a character in there who is spared, by the way because he is an understanding sympathetic character, and because he's saying all these people are human, and that lets Clara say to Scaldak, look, you know, where people, your people, just stop. Because I think what the plot fails to interact with is when Scaldak's got his finger on the bottom, the doctor says, well, look I've got a red button as well, with a red light on his Sonic Screwdriver. And Clara never says to him, would you really have done that. But then again, you know, it's the trolly problem of Skaldate's going to destroy the planet. The doctor's like, well, I'm just going to destroy this small group of people on a submarine. And, you know, you got 2 vics standing over in the transporter. But I love the idea that there is the trolly problem and then Scaldax trolly problem. I like that we've got a philosophical variant here. My trolley's got nukes. But yeah, it's like, I often feel that Gator scripts aren't very deep, but I think with this one, he is at least trying to draw a parallel between the real Cold War and the Cold War happening here. And in a way, I think possibly too much gets cut out because there's so many little cuts here and we end up at 41 minutes with the credits and next time trailer. It's like maybe put some of that back in and let us get to know the characters a bit more. I think that's a good point. And I kind of think that articulates a bit better what I was trying to say about, you know, how there is this attempt to characterise the people on the Russian submarine, as not Russians but other just other people. I think that I do think that gets much. I think, as you say, Nathan, it gets muddied a little bit because a lot of the big moments which tap into the themes of a Cold War story, you know, the fingers on the button kind of thing, you know nuclear Armageddon, uh, to, uh, all that kind of stuff. It feels like it's just tipping the hat to that kind of ideological tension and tipping its hat to the idea of a Cold War rather than engaging with that in any kind of substantial way which is a little disappointing when you have a story that is literally called Cold War. Um, but I do, I do think there is, uh, there is a nuance that I gatus probably would have benefitted from teasing out a little bit more. It would have been interesting to push the doctor because we know in the original version of the timeline. The war doctor did detonate the moment. The ninth doctor couldn't do it in the parting of the ways. He says, you know, coward every time. So the 11th doctor, would he have gone through with it? If, you know, uh, if pushed, you know, what, what decision would have been made, it would have been interesting, uh, had the ice warrior ship not arrived to see which way that would have gone. Not that he would have blown them all up, but what, you know, if forced to kind of rationalise that decision, I suppose. But maybe that's what gets Clara thinking about it so that she intervenes in day of the doctor. Yeah, would have been great if, you know, we had like a title card. It's like introducing the War Lenin turning up right at the end. Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. We'll be back next week to see what image of the Fender looks like in 2013, with Hyde. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. Mark, where can people find you? So I'm on Twitter as at Quark McMullis. You can find me on the Trap One podcast and occasionally on the aforementioned maximum power. And Jack, where can people find you? As I am very fond of saying, if people are so inclined, you can follow me on Twitter at Shack Janahan. I nearly said.com there for some reason. That is not a separate website. Um, and you can also follow myself and Joe Ford, uh, whose name is very familiar, uh, at uh, podcast, the Naimon be Praised, which can be found at at Naimon Podcast. Until next time, remember that it's never a good idea to start melting that block of ice before the opening credits kick in. Thank you very much for listening, and good night. Good night. Goodbye. Good night. That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley Brendan Jones, Mark McManison, Jack Shanahan. theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. This episode, Fluffy Bums, was recorded on the 12th of July 2022 and released on the 18th of September. David Warner died at the age of 80 just a fortnight after we recorded this episode. So remember sometimes during the week to pour one out for Chancellor Gorkon, the unbound doctor, Lord Asloc, Professor Grasenko, and Jordan Perry in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, The Secret of the Ooze. Just hold this hold the thought for a second. We're going to have to wind up. Um, I thought the other one wasn't due until 830. No, no, 8.15. Oh, I beg your pardon. They're just talking on the other thread, just to say. Okay. I think we need an out. I think I have a thing, because I think we've done everything haven't we? At some point... I think probably in Hyde, we will end up talking about Matt's performance a bit because I think there's not very much to say and I didn't think there was much to say about this, to be honest, but here we are. I think we've done very well. We talk about hads. We did mention the hats as a trout and throwback. I think that's okay. I wonder if part of the problem is...