The Glue That Holds Everything Together

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast that checks its lagomorphs carefully before monologuing at them. I'm Nathan. I'm Brendan. I'm Todd, and I'm John Hurt under a dust cover for this one. Well, we all know what happened 59 years ago today, but 9 years ago today, we were all experiencing a day that will be forever written on our little fanboy hearts. So let's see what we remember about what happened on the day of the doctor. Do you remember the first time you saw this? Where were you when you saw this for the first time, Todd? Was I in the UK? I think you were, yes. Yes, because I'd been to the 50th. I'd been to the 50th anniversary event and then we were back at, I think, I think it was Peter's house actually. Yeah, we were watching it as a group and I just remember struggling with the cat because I'm allergic and so I was battling battling sore eyes and and a constricted throat, but I was still you know, loving what I was saying is what I could say. That's where I was. Yeah, okay. Do you remember Brendan? Yeah, because I had to work, like it was on in cinemas here before it was on telly, and I did have tickets booked for like a 930 screening, but then I was doing a job on The Voice, and it was an audition tour. So, you know, I couldn't exactly take a day off because that was what it was scheduled for. So I had to give up my cinema ticket, switch my phone off so no one texted me about what was in the episode and then rush home afterwards and watch it on iview. Did you remain unspoiled? I mean, there's one or 2 things that you don't want to be spoiled not for you. I'm finding it hard to remember. I think I knew about Tom. Okay. But I think I knew about Tom before. You know, I think he had been somehow seen or something like that. But I could be wrong. And then I went to the cinema the next day to see it. I moved my ticket or I forfeited or gave it to someone or ate it or something. Do you have any memories from 9 years ago at all? Just a number, isn't it? as we say at our age. I thought we all saw it at the cinema together. So my memory is that I went to James's place and we had bubbly. We had some bubbly Shiraz at sort of 6 o'clock in the morning or something and then watched it on iPlayer. It's Ribena for Adels. You know what? That's why I switched my phone off because you guys texted me saying we're watching it now. I love you and I trust you, but I don't trust you. But then James and I went to the cinema later that day and saw it in 3D. And it still does work without 3D, but I do like that it, it was just James and me, I think. Yeah, it was in 3D. Was it in 3D? Yeah, yeah. I think Richard, you and I went the next day. Because I think I saw it with you in the city. Definitely remember cinema. cinema. So in a blur. So the... wept. We wept. I did not know Tom was coming. No, I needed to keep my poodra very much on a high shelf. I didn't know either. Like, it's just that lump in the throat. Well, it's when you hear him, the brilliance of hearing him before... Britain, Britain. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I definitely saw it with Richard because I've been to several Doctor Who cinema screenings with Richard and Richard has this thing where if something surprising happens like Tom Baker turning up suddenly my arm is in a vice. Yes, I bring one with me. And for those of you who haven't seen Richard and I together in person, I'm 5 foot four, Richard 6 foot three. 6 foot two, I beg your pardon. Let's not ever extend it. And he's a very solid gentleman. He actually dressed as a lumberjack today and looking the part. Didn't bring my own lunch, but. But yes, no, it, yes, I do remember squealing audibly. I think there was some of that Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. God, it was good, wasn't it? Yeah, I've only read the Target novel. I have to say, for this audio commentlair. Yeah, I didn't watch it. because that's what we used to do as young people. We read the book. So I'm coming to this as a 10 year old, yeah. I mentioned the book actually in yesterday's episode provided I don't decide to cut that beard. And it is amazingly good. I read it on Nathan's recommendation originally. So you just got to buy this. Oh, I can't be. Oh, and I didn't. Ooh. Ooh. And it takes a bit longer. And it does some lovely nods to Douglas Adams and to, well, really the whole history of Doctor Who writers. There's lots of little ticks to Terence and Malcolm in his, some of his wordplay, which just made my spine go funny in a good way. I was talking to Simon and Peter about this. and about the 3 big celebrations. which are, of course, an adventure in space and time the 5-ish doctors reboot and this. And which one do you like the most, which one do you have the most love for, and why? And we were talking about like we're classic series fans, we just absolutely adore an adventure in time and space. Obviously, the 5 doctors reboot has so many classic people in there. And then I sort of made the generic comment, oh, you know, it's the classic stuff that really gets to me. But it's more than that. It's actually the interaction between classic and Yuhu. That the stuff that gets to me. It's when David Bradley looks at Matt Smith in that, and I sort of break down in tears, and it's when you hear Tom's voice and that whole sequence and interaction with Matt Smith in this, that you're well up and you get tears. Five Shock's reboot is a bit different. Like, I didn't sort of get tears, but it's all that interaction how it's so interlinked with new who. And that's the stuff that, not to say, there's other stuff that I don't love in this, I didn't interact. I always love having doctors interact with each other, but it's all the pictures in the background of the classic companions and all that, that as a classic fan. It's just magical. And I don't want to say that if you're a new who fan, then that's going to mean anything less because if you go back and watch it all and have watched it all, then you're a fan of Doctor Who. But it's just something that has struck me. Yeah. Well, I think it's El Sandefer, who is the one who said that this is the show that heals the breach of the wilderness years by bringing classic Doctor Who back and letting the new series kind of encompass it. And I think maybe it's not super obvious, but I think maybe the best representative of the classic series is in some ways John Hurt. You know, he's older, he's posh, he's got the posh accent, David Tenner, he's fun of it. Yeah, he's had a career before, and he doesn't really like the younger members of the cast. There's a lot of historical truth in this. It's the thing where he looks at the 2 doctors from the new series and can't believe how kind of stupid they are. you know, like how they speak like children, how they wave their. I mean, I can imagine Simon criticising the new series doctors for waving their sonic screwdriver around like a water pistol and here is John Hurt doing that. So he's a classic series doctor that we've never kind of heard of. It's really out of the obelisk, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So he's invited onto the program to make fun of how stupid it is. And one of the things that he does is that he notices what those doctors do despite their weird, unimpressive appearance and that makes him make the decision. But I think that that's a place and maybe an overlooked place where the classic series interacts in this episode. It's really interesting because I'd heard rumours at the time that you know, some people felt this whole war doctor concept was a misbegotten sort of idea and, you know, couldn't get Eccleston. BBC didn't want McGann, who I think both could have stepped into that. Is that why I did not know that. That's what we think. And I think that McGann could have done this. I think he would have been prudent. And I personally don't think it would have mattered who had done that role. Yeah, Stephen said he'd finished writing it from again. yeah. I think at this point, the audiences with Doctor Who, everything is built up to this moment, right? So if it had been McGann, I don't think you would have got any less viewers. No, if it had been John Hurt. Like, I just don't think there's any difference. I mean, I mentioned when we were doing time with the doctor for me when John Hurt appeared. It was like, oh, well, great. But it didn't really mean anything to me. I was not blown away by that, that. I mean, it's interesting now coming into this, like he was built as the doctor at the end of that, but we've had the night of the doctor where he's actually build as the war doctor. So as a fan, you know that's where this is, where this is coming from. I think you're very right about how the performance is very classic series. And I think it is, I think it's wonderful in it. And I think it works so well and it's really interesting. When I went into it, I was not determined not to like it like I normally am. But I was deeply concerned about the concept, Brendan. about this war doctor and how it wouldn't work. But Stephen Moffat is a very clever man. Yes, he's up against it with all of the constraints and having to tie everything together and come up with this and it works. And you know how I like all my teas to be crossed and eyes to be dotted. And if they're not, then I'm really not happy. I'm very, very happy. It just he's just splendid. Yeah, it just, look, it just works. And the sort of tying back of John Hurts, the classic series mode of doctor, when Eccleston declined to do it and they couldn't get Paul McGann, Stephen Moffatt had to come up with this idea and his starting point was the 5 doctors, but not necessarily in the way you might expect. Richard Herndle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Android. Well, the thing is, he was considering for a while not doing a multidoctor story because he's like, you know, that's a bit of a misnomer. Not every anniversary has a multi-doctor story kind of thing. But yes, then he thought about Richard Herndle. And he thought about, and we discussed this on the podcast before how Richard Herndle's 1st doctor isn't actually all that much like William Hartnell's 1st doctor. It's almost like he's this entirely new incarnation with adventures you haven't seen. Oh my god, I've just saved the 50th anniversary, said Stephen Moffat. So he went to the BBC with this idea and said, but this will only work if we get a big name actor that bypasses people going, but they were never the doctor to go to. I don't care that they were the never the doctor because they're John Hurt. And that it actually melds another idea he had in a fit of madness because after the end of series 7, Jenna Coleman was the only person contracted. Yeah. So Matt Smith's contract ended, his initial contract ended with name of the doctor, and he hadn't said, I won't do more, but he was getting film offers. He actually leaves this and immediately flies to America to do a film, and that's when he shaves his head and has to wear the wig for time of the doctor. Or the Adric inheritance as a team in this group. Yeah. Like, Tenant came off one thing onto this and immediately onto another thing. So it was hard to get Tenant. So Stephen Moffatt did initially have this idea that the 50th anniversary would be Clara meeting a bunch of different celebrities playing the doctor and basically the doctor would change every few scenes and he's like, Joanna Lumley, Miriam Mogli Serene McCallen, da da. The sofa of reasonable. Yes, exactly. Exactly. But, you know, that was Stephen Moffat going, I don't have a doctor. I have all the doctors and he's kind of said in an interview since that would have been awful. Well, we've seen it. There wasn't that bad. It's amazing how John Hertz doctor comes out of a period of adversity because they were they were close to getting Eccleston and then he's just like, no, I'm just not ready to go back and do that again. Yeah, especially seeing as we've since found out how painful it was for him to leave and how he felt he was blacklisted afterwards and what have you. It's amazing. you know, there's multiple sides, of course. But it's amazing he even considered it, in my opinion. But yeah, we get John Hurt, who's who's lovely and sweet, but you totally believe will blow up half the universe. Yeah, I mean, he is quite lovely almost immediately. So when he turns up, when those when those men turn up to look for the doctor who has bewitched Queen Elizabeth I and they say something about, you know, we want the doctor's head or something like that, and John Hirche smiles broadly and says, well, this has all the makings of your lucky day. Yes, it's wonderful because he has been so sombre and so solemn up until that point. That's the point where for me he became the doctor, I think. I always think it's such a shame that he only calls himself the doctor once at the end. and he doesn't get to be really called the doctor very much at all. But you know, that's just an observation. I think it's also quite funny that the 2 companions, and I put that in quotes here, Clara and Rose, or Bad Wolf, or the moment. The only 2 actresses that thus far in you who have actually witnessed a generation or are going to witness a generation from one doctor to the next. But to be fair, we have also witnessed that with Billy's teeth. The moment was, could have just been a box on a something else. was an entirely different head. I actually really like her as the moment. Is this the moment? She is the best thing in the special. She can act the box off and out of any of the others. No, and she actually, those scenes with her. You can actually see him. Just my opinion. You can actually see him rise a little bit in standard too. He's not just doing grumpy Grandpa Panto. You can actually see. She's got the spark. She's the Claudia Winkleman of Doctor Who. She's the strictly come dancing of Doctor. If you know Claudius. Anyway, Claudia Muinklemanon strictly has a very manic, yet controlled manner that is charming and yet completely random. And Billy has a manic quality in her eye in this that, I don't know whether it's years with Chris Evans, but I can believe everything she says. She has a psychotic joy about her. She's extraordinary and hurt rises to that. Yeah. And she also has real proper feelings. Like, we're we're told by the general that the weapon is so powerful. its operating system developed a conscience and she is absolutely engineering and permitting this to happen, giving the doctor the chance to do a redo and get the decision right. And she, when the doctor goes back, when the war doctor goes back with a renewed determination to blow everyone up, it seems like it hasn't worked, she's really heartbroken and she really sells it. And, you know, there's no character to hang that on. It's not like Rose, who is an identifiable sort of TV character. She's playing the moment, which is what the hell is that? And she absolutely kills it. She's funny and silly and manic, as Richard said, but also sombre and really, really desperate to ensure that the weapon isn't used the way that it was the 1st time through. Is this special actually as good as it is because we get the legacy of Russell and Andy Pryce and Phil's? I guess Julie, but just their understanding of what good casting is. Because just to throw it in there. I mean, Matt is lovely. Of course, he's lovely and everyone else is lovely. And maybe it's nostalgia, but the real punches on the screen are everyone that's from Russell's 1st few years. I think too, that this engages with Russell's Doctor Who really very thorough going. Maybe we were just as well. Yeah, maybe we were just missing it in the same way that audiences in 73 must have been missing Pat. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's I think that's right. He does a very good version of David Tennant. He's written for David Tennant before, obviously. He picks up Queen Elizabeth Gag from End of Time, part one. just love the way he keeps insulting her all the time. She's great too. She is Joanna Page, yeah. She's lovely in this. Stacy from Gavin and Stacy. Oh God, and she's so good. I think Stephen Moffatt is actually the best rider for tenants doctor. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. Like the stuff that he wrote in Russell's era was superb everyone. He got him. He also got Eccleston. I would have loved to have seen him write for Eccleston. Look, there are storyboards of the soldier, give me your gun blasting away no more in the wall. There are storyboards of Eccleston in that moment. So that's how far along they got in pre-production, thinking we might get him. And, you know, Stephen Moffatt sort of has his post rationalization of, you know, the good thing about bringing in John Hurt is that if your favourite doctor is Paul McGann or Christopher Eccleston, you don't have to square them being your favourite doctor with them being a genocidal warrior, you know because now you've got this other one we can project onto. Yeah, you know. And when we have talked about the doctor doing questionable things in the past and immediately springing to mind is the twin dilemma one of the things we talked about back then was how uncomfortable that made us because this is our hero. So the war doctor gives us that out. And John Hurt then subsequently did the War Doctor series with Big Finish. And there was always that tension with the character of doing quote unquote the wrong thing for the right reasons. And of course, unfortunately, John Hurt is no longer with us. But that was a really nice perfect series of 12 plays and no disrespect intended to the newer ones they're doing with Jonathan Carly, who does an amazing version of the character as well. And then this as sort of his finale because this does end up being the War Doctor's finale. But it's amazing how well the character works just by himself. You know, when we come across the 10th doctor, the 10th doctor is in the midst of his own adventure somewhere between the waters of Mars and the end of time. You know, because he's ended the waters of Mars going, I'm really sad. And so I'm going to go off and find out Queen Elizabeth's Zigon. Yeah. In fact, it is a little bit of a cheat. It is a little bit of a coincidence that Tennant is at one end of the Zygon invasion and Matt is at the other end. So they both turned up at the same time in the same invasion. And so we have kind of 2 stories, don't we? We have the Zygon invasion story with them hiding in the paintings and bursting out. And then we have the moment interrupting that story in order to persuade the war doctor not to push the button. And both of those stories are quite simple, which I think really works, because it does give us what we want, which is time hanging out with those characters, I think. It's gonna go back to what Richard was saying about, like, all the Russell characters and that, and them shining perhaps more. I don't necessarily agree with that point of view. I actually think it's one of these things where like in the 3 doctors, like John Pertuis is very competent, but as you were saying, it's like suddenly having Pat and William coming down in his bubble, like that gives you, like, you sort of connect with that. Yeah, that's the rasmataz. So having these people back, you're sort of looking at that sparkle. I think Billy is extraordinary and all the cutting with her there not there and the lines that hark back to things with tenet and kissing and all that. you know, it's all just icing on the cake. But I actually think that Matt is extraordinarily good. He's the glue that holds everything together. Well, perhaps it's actually Jenna, who's the glue that holds everything together because she is interacting with all 3 doctors at various points. And the moment she begins to cry or tears get in her eyes at the end, it always gets to me. She really sells it. I don't know other people say that she's cold or whatever. she's the witch in the well or whatever she happens to be. But I actually think she's absolutely perfect in this. Again, I think she's an extraordinary actress and Clara is just the right thing. We were talking about, in our season 7 retrospective. We had questions about whether Clara's time should have been done. Well, no. Yeah, she's magnificent enemies. And she's the one who saves the day. I mean, the moment fails. She takes the doctor forward to see how Matt and David actually manage to save the world by using their experience of having destroyed Galifray as a kind of a warning or a moral lesson. And so when the war doctor goes back, he's going to push the button, because he sees that their regret has spurred them on to save people. And that's absolutely the wrong message, that's not the message he should have taken. And it's Clara. is the one who intervenes and says that you just can't do this. You can't be killing 2.800000000 children. And because she's us, she's the audience, you know, and she's Moffat in a way too, I think. I don't think Moffatt likes the idea that the doctor killed everyone on Galifre. And so he fixes it so that it didn't happen. It's a very clever way he does it. Like, he always has. He introduces stuff. during an episode that you don't necessarily see how it's going to link to the ending, like the whole, the picture in the painting and I think all that's extraordinary having that moment. But also I think the other thing is his whole take on the war, like it's very interesting. It's much more, this is a battle for the 2nd Arcadia, like the 2nd city of Galifre. It's all very much we're seeing gala frames and children and just the Daleks and that. Whereas previously, Russell had talked about in the final episodes of tenant, what were all those, the hordes of whatever, you know you know, has-beens or whatever, the could have been king and the army of his never was. A nightmare children. So things that in my head are concepts that I can't really get my head around. Whereas here it's a much more, the war is much grittier and realer. Like it's just more grounded as opposed to something out in space where I just imagine sort of ghouls and things flying through the air and just not just shooting lasers, which appears to be. Yeah. So Russell actually describes the war in more detail in his novelisation of Rose, and he has like replica earths and gala phrase being recreated out of different times and hurled as missiles. And, you know, like it's an absolutely bizarre and unfilmable conception of the war, and that works very well. But once you've decided to depict it. What do you do? it becomes just gun. Like the time war becomes incredibly gun. And that's why the doctor doesn't fit into it. You know, that's why the doctor doesn't belong there because it's just people with guns. I think also we're meant to believe it's something of a war of attrition because in the sort of secret vault. They say, we've used all the weapons, except for the moment. You know, we've used all the fancy weapons that we can't depict on screen conveniently. So now we're down to lasers. Nemesis statue. Yeah, yeah, statue. Like, I just have her flag around Galifra. That would have been so funny. The decorative milk crate, that's all we've got. Just have her fly up to the Daleks. I am beautiful You are not. But it's the one thing that I do have a slight problem with is that what is depicted is not quite what was in my head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's his takeoff. The best thing about this is the five-ish doctors, and I've got to say listening to you or speaking, I'm having to run through my head going, was that in the special or was that five-ish because to me it's the same? You know, Stephen may not have those 3 doctors or 4 doctors in the special, but they couldn't have done what they did without his assistance and permission and love for the show and action figures. Yeah, I mean, he must he must have shared with Peter. what the script was because Peter inserts those 3 doctors into the scene in the undergallery because they're, they're hiding under the sheets that the cycle are hiding under. I think that what I've heard is Pete sort of said to Moffatt, is there a scene where we could be hiding in the background? You don't have to tell me what it is. And so, 1st of all, they're like, well, we'll put you in 3 dalek casings, you know, 3 paradigm daleks who were never seen in the special. And then it's like, oh, well, actually, we've got these statues and you can hide as statues. And I do understand there are some shots where it is. It is them. Yeah, in like in the background of one or 2 of the Ingrid Oliver shots. Apparently. It is those three. Well, in actual, apparently so. Like, just, just, just, just, just, a stormtroopers. I've seen it before. Totally. That's kind of nice. You know, one of the things I really love about Stephen. He has such a love for the show, and he's such a fan, and, you know, he has his own take on it, and he works everything in without denigrating anything that Russell's done. you know? Yeah. And, you know, that's one of the joys of his writing is that he actually builds everybody up and he doesn't take swipes and or he does things in a lovely way. And I think it's often overlooked at how clever and how thoughtful he actually is in many ways. I just think it's so clever taking what Russell's done and not negating it or saying it's wrong or trying to rewrite it or just throw it out and say, well, that didn't happen. But integrating it into his canon and just bringing everything together. Yeah, I mean, we've had all of the previous doctors in the previous episode to one degree or another, we've just seen them in action or in Collins case walking behind someone in a corridor. But at least he does, at least he does get in the bubble, you actually do see him at the concert. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And here they are all back. they're all working together to solve the same thing. And that's that's the clever thing. And he's done this before. He's pulled this before, right? We're in the Tower of London, the moment tells the war doctor that all of the Sonic screwdrivers are the same software, different case. And so he scans it with his, he scans the door with his uh, Sonic screwdriver and because it's been 400 years, Matt Smith's, Sonic screwdriver can immediately um, destroy the door, not that he needs to because this. It's not. It's not long. I love how it's, oh, we're so clever, says Matt Smith, and then Clara bursts. And then the moment says same software, different face. And of course, the same thing happens. Matt has the idea of what to do because he's had 400 years to think about it in the meantime. And that's the same trick that he pulls in time crash, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, where Pete learns how to defeat the whatever the hell the thing is. Belgium. Yeah, by seeing. Yeah, that's right. By seeing the 10th doctor do it. And so when he's the 10th doctor, he remembers being the 5th doctor, seeing the 10th doctor to it. So so he has pulled that before, it's not new, but it's done so tremendously well here, I think. In terms of the doctor's decision to change his mind at the end. Yeah, it's an absolutely beautiful scene and Clara's inspiration of him. She actually originally had a much longer speech, right. Which I'm glad they cut down, but pretty much Matt Smith says we have to do this. And David Tennant says, for we are the oncoming storm. We are the car, Ferric Gartry. We are the bringers of darkness. And John Hurt says, this is what I was born to do. To which Clara responds, no, you weren't. No one's born to do anything. That's just stupid. That's what mad people say. How many children did you say? 247000000 stuck on a planet surrounded by monsters and waiting for someone to save them? For God's sake, this time there's 3 of you. You can stop being a bringer of darkness or a storm or a legend or a hero or any of the stupid things you tell yourself you are, just be you, just be a doctor. And so what we get is the same effect as that. And I'm glad they shortened it. Because something I've been finding reading on the script development of these is Moffat definitely overwrites at the beginning. He usually writes a lot of like sexy jokes in there. As Clara wanders into the Tartars at the end before she says, by the way, the curator of this place was looking for you. She was meant to look at where the tennis doctor's TARDIS was and say, you know, you used to be really sexy to which Matt Smith says which one? Which one are you talking about? You know. But that's another great thing about Stephen Moffat. As much as he pays tribute to what came before, he's absolutely not afraid to go, you know what, I need less here. Yeah. And I need I need to just let the actors do more because that whole bit with the 3 doctors watching gala phrase the moment brings it around them is so good. And it has so much less dialogue than was in the original script. Yeah. All you needed. Well done. All you needed was that be a doctor. Do what you've always done. Be a doctor. And that's the other thing that's really striking and that has to happen. This is the 50th anniversary celebration, so it needs to be about who it is that we're celebrating. And so all that that speech to the never cruel and cowardly speech. This is what the doctor is. This is why we love him and we get to go back and fix the one time where he failed to do that. And I think it's fantastic. It's magnificent. I mentioned the other day, when we were doing night of the doctor that I had a theory as to why this works so well, despite it being a simple story. And that is, especially in the 1980s, you had all these stories where someone was deliberately out to get the doctor. And it ends up being not terribly interesting. And I'm kind of like, well, why isn't it terribly interesting? It's like, well, it's not terribly interesting because the doctor's not going to die. Or, you know, be massively hurt or anything like that. You know, there might be a regeneration. But it's like even in Lagopolis, the doctor thinks it's about him and it's not. This is still a story about the doctor, but it's not a story about the villain out to get the doctor, but it's about the doctor's personal growth instead. So it's kind of like the doctor's soul is at risk. And that's far more interesting than the Borad going, Oh, well, you know, doctor, you turned me into this, now I'm going to be horrible to you. Or Roger Delgado coming in and just mucking the doctor around. You know, I've got no other purpose. I'm just going to tease you this week. And that's why I think you need to have a sort of quite simple story with the Zygon thing because in a way, that simple story is interrupting what we really want. in a very Stephen Moffatt kind of way. And if you look back in Stephen Moffatt's tenure to say Amy's choice. If that had been about the doctor, that would have been far less interesting because it's about Amy, there's actual risk involved. And because it's about something that we have been told for the last 7 series has happened. You know, right back with Eccleston, he says, I watched it happen. I made it happen. Matt Smith says, I killed all the time, Lords, in the doctor's wife, you know. And everything we know about Doctor Who tells us that this is inevitable, except for the Wedding of River Song, has told us actually, this kind of thing can be changed if you're very clever. Yeah. It's a little bit like the way this story rewrites the end of the previous season as well, where the doctor has a destination that's trendsalore. He has it right up until the very end where he's saying goodbye to David Tannen and that's a bad ending. And so what Moffatt does is he lets the doctor rewrite it. And so now his purpose is to go hunting for Gallifrey and the idea that he's inevitably going to end up at Trezilore is gone. And it's just a sort of super moffety thing to do, is to say actually, we're not going to tell this story. We're going to do something different. And I think it's really great. Yeah, sculler free or home the long way round. Yeah. It's something that will permeate through a number of series now sort of the end of his time as showrunner. The story being so simple. And about being the doctor's soul, as you said, Brendan, just touches our soul, right? And I just think that works so well. And the monsters become sort of periphery to that. You know, he's never, Stephen's not really interested in writing Daleks, like a lot of the time, they're here, but they're just a means to an end. They're on the periphery. The Zygons. Well, we adore them from the classic series. If we know them, if they're new to us, this is what they are and what they do, they're there for some jokes, and they're there for that ridiculous scene where Gemma Regave has to spit out that, that that, when she changes back for no reason at all, that I can see. Do you guys like the zygons in this? I do. I think that they were the monster that was most in need of coming back. Every one of us thought, you know, the Zygons are the best one off monster that Doctor Who has ever done and we need to see them again. And, you know, Moffat during his time will bring back the ice warriors. He will bring back the great intelligence. He brings back all sorts of things and gets a redo of them. And here I think the zygons. I don't think they look quite as good. No, they're Bite T cartoon versions. But it's the same thing. I think Todd's hinting at as with the Daleks. You aggrandise them when you bring them back and they lose that foetal fragility. The Daleks and the Zygons in their 1st stories are both very similar. They're impounded and they have that claustrophobic sense, which we... It's also really a significant story because we see the doctor commit, as far as we know genocide. We don't know how many colonies survived. And Tom so gleeful, yes, blew them up on the beach. And even at 12 I thought this is terrible. This is a terrible thing to do. So maybe they did deserve some legacy, but they're not the same. Well, they're not the same because like the actors who are playing themselves aren't playing the Zygons. Yeah yeah That's a shame, actually, you know. I would have banned, you know, Paddy managed to bandage up Tom as a as a mummy and tell him, oh, you know, it's Veritas, Tom, just because she was sick of him and wanted to show up. I think we could have done Impyramids of Mars. I think we could have done the same very easily. With Gemma. I think Gemma would have been up. No, but she's great. But really as a zygon? Yeah, I think she would have been fantastic. I mean, she's the modern Glinda Jackson after all. No, she is. Jim, it really is. And considering in the original terror of the Zygons, the actress playing Sister Lamont does voice her Zygon counterparts. Whereas here and not begrudging the man, but they're all Nicholas Briggs. And it's kind of like, you know, you know what? Nicholas Briggs's Daleks, absolutely. I wish they'd bring in Alastair Lock occasionally to mix it up, but he hasn't played them even for Big Finish for a while. But for me, I really like the Zygon design except for one factor the new one. The new one. Not the teeth so much. Richard's doing rabbit teeth acting. Father pins. No, it's the eyes. They're very different. They're very different. And I think what it is, is on the original. They have very heavy browse, which put the eyes into shadow. And the new heads don't have the same protrusion, so the eyes are more human. Do you know, for me, it's the translucency? The rubber of the Zygon suits... rubber of the... Like it was slightly translucent. Yes. Yes, you're right. Yeah, it's quite beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So, and that fragility, because they're sort of foetal and they look sort of fragile and stuff. Whereas here they are a little bit more kind of robust and they're a little bit more monstrous. They also don't strut around the same way with their little thoraxes push forward. miss that. I do like the fact that Queen Elizabeth kills off her counterpart. There's feeble as people. Well, that's a famous quote from Queen Elizabeth I. I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman. I think Miranda Richardson does the same quote. It is a great shame I wasn't Miranda. imagine that. I just kept thinking there's an account by like a French ambassador or something and I'm going to get the details wrong of meeting Queen Elizabeth when she's much older. And of course, sugar becomes a thing during Queen Elizabeth's lifetime and her teeth are shockingly bad. Like they're really black and horrible by the time. Old wooden teeth, I believe she was... But you remember her at the end of the Shakespeare code, which is a sequel to this story. Yes, yes. Queen Elizabeth's concern. She's not happy, is she? But she has terrible teeth as well. So all of that stuff about David Tennant saying how she's got breath that would stun a horse and stuff like that. All of that is kind of historically accurate eventually. Speaking of which, Kate Stewart, um, and unit, of course, are in here with Osgood as well. She was previously introduced a little while ago during season seven. Power of 3 and unit is back here with the Black Archive. I just laughed the fact that that poor man at the theatre. It's his 1st day every day for 10 years. Yeah, look at Severance 9 years early. isn't it? I mean, the thing is, does he go home every day and say to his husband, my 1st day went well. You've been saying that for 10 years. What a divorce. But it's interesting how he works that all into the show and for those that know, Dr. from the beginning, you know, that's it's quite a big payoff. I mean, it's nice to have that in there in the reference to the brigadier. I guess if you're newer, does it really, does it really matter? No, it probably doesn't. They just a, you know, military organisation, but it's, I find that it's nice nods. I know a number of people on the podcast, maybe not this team don't particularly like Gemma Redgrave's performance as Kate Stewart, but I always think that she does, I like her. I actually really like her. What else is she going to do with it? And Osgood. A nod back to a character from which one is it? The demons. from the demon. right? Who's not to say that she is a relation? Yeah, yeah. Sorry, his daughter. Hang on, for the young people here. Which one isn't is Osgood in the demons? Osgood's the kind of science-y one who is operating the thing that peers through the heat barrier. Oh, God, of course it is. Yeah, Alec Lindstead. The Woo thing with the glasses and the white coat. of a fan. Yeah, yeah. Who is later Jellicoe in Robot? and Arthur Stengos Dalek in Revelation. Oh my goodness. Yes. It's interesting. He's now got these new playthings. I think Oz could make such an impact. She's so good. Gosh, she's good. That he's going to keep bringing her back. Yeah. And you look back on his time as showrunner and you see that, you know, when Stephen finds new things to play with, he lets go of his current playthings. And I'm sort of referring to the part of Nostergang, who I adore and think should have done more episodes, but it's sort of like okay, they're back, spoiler alert one more time, but then Case and Osgood are back for a bit and then he finds new play things. But she is a joy in this with her whole Tom Baker scarf. She even does the Tom Baker thing where the Zigon is standing on the end of the scarf, which is on the floor and she yanks it and the Zigon falls over. Like she absolutely does that. And that incredible moment at the end, where the 2 Kate Stewarts have lost their memories, and there's that interaction where one of the Osgoods coughs and the other Osgood gives her the inhaler and they both realise which one is human and which one is Zigon but they decide not to wreck it because they do want this negotiation to go ahead and succeed. It's really good. That's really good. picked up on, right? Because then he, of course, cedes that for the next story in a few seasons time, but that is it's just interesting, that little moment. It's very... And also I think going back to at the end of David, tenant's time in the, I want to say the dead planet. Oh, Planet of the Dead. Say words, different order. Planet of the dead planet. Yeah, I know. You do have unit, and you've got Malcolm, who's another scientist from unit who's in love with the doctor, which is wonderful. And here we've got Osgold again, and I think they tried to do it with that. maybe they didn't really do it with that guy back in the power of 3 who was a bit of a nerd. I can't remember who she was talking to. Yeah, I can't remember. But Malcolm does get name checked twice in this episode. So he's the one who's responsible for ensuring that the, is it the Ravens of the Tower of London, have their batteries? Tell Malcolm to change the batteries. And then Malcolm is also the one who is supposed to analyse the stone dust at the bottom of the under gallery. So that's definitely Malcolm. Yeah, you know. And again, it's this thing where Moffat loves Russell's Doctor Who and constantly references it. in a positive way. Something I really love about Gemma Redgrave's performance is she has Nicholas Courtney's quality of underplaying certain moments. She's not terribly earnest all the time, but yet there are layers to the performance and she does get excited or scared or concerned. And, you know, at the moment of we only have to agree to live. Well, unfortunately, we can only agree to die. It's like, okay, yeah, like, no, I believe you will blow up London actually. You know, despite the fact, you know, the whole time we've seen you've been kind of charming and walking in and going, oh, hi, Rory nice pants, you know. Interesting thing about Kate Stewart, though. The BBC consider her a legally distinct and original character compared to Kate Lethbridge Stewart of the spinoff media. So that way they don't have to pay the Hazman Lincoln estate for her. Oh boy. And we were talking about with a great intelligence a couple of weeks ago. It's like, you know, Daleks created by Terry Nations. So, Tarans created by Robert Holmes. So Loren's created by Malcolm Hook. Does it say the Zargans are created by? Oh, I think it does. I think it says Zigon's created by Robert Banks Stewart, but it's like great intelligence. No, we don't need to credit anyway. barely a thing There was a thing with, was it Mervyn Hasman and Henry Lincoln? Yeah, no, there was a big kind of thing going all the way back with yetis and reusable yetis. And do you remember? That kind of falling out. a bit of drama. So yes, that's why. My favourite Ingrid Oliver thing, which has nothing to do with where we are at this point in the conversation, is it's Penthesilea in the BBC radio for Earth. What's it called again? Earth Sea. I can't believe. Earth search? Earth search is no, that's good as well. I'll find you the title. She plays a warrior, princess in a metal bra, and it's a piss take of Lord of the Rings. That's what Stephen Mangan as a fantasy writer, and he's Labrador who gets sucked into an alternative dimension, and the Labrador personifies as the chosen one, although he still likes sticks and sniffing button. And there's and it's a tiny dwarf and there's a tall elf who's, you know, not quite sure where he is in the world, shall we say? And it's really, really, really funny. But everything in Ingrid Oliver does is completely different from everything else Ingrid Oliver does. And she's superb. And I would have liked to have seen her as they do with the Zigon. And the book that Stephen Moffat has done really plays on that so nicely. And she actually saves the world in the book in a different way because of the empathy that she and her doppelganger creates and that the Zygons learn about. They love swimming in the mind of a huge pool, even it's the TARDIS swimming pool, isn't it at the time as well? swimming in the pool of her mind and how much that goes on there. And the Zigons actually, yeah, achieve empathy by being Ingrid Oliver. So she's absolute. I would have really liked to have seen her do as a Clara thing. I think I might, no, I'm not going to go there. she would have made a good companion. I'll just say that Yeah. You know what? I would be amazed if they didn't ask her at one and I get the impression with Ingrid, Oliver, that, you know, like you say Richard, she does different thing every time, but she doesn't do it for long. You know what I mean? He's very busy. Yeah, exactly. And quite right. Working, darling. Yes, I am. Thanks for asking. You know, and I 1st saw her in Watson and Oliver, which was her sketch comedy series with Lorna Watson, and there's a particular one where Ingrid Oliver has found out that the new James Bond is down to 2 names, her and Daniel Craig. What? Lorna Watson's like, 0 god, that's so nerve-wracking. This is like when David Tennant beat me out for Doctor Who. And then they do this whole Bond musical number with Ingrid Oliver in a tuxedo. It's amazing. If we can find it on YouTube, we will link it in the show notes and I'm looking at Nathan because he has to do that. I would possibly go as far as saying that Osgood may be Stephen Moffat's most successful recurring guest character, recurring guest character. And, you know, even 2 or 3 years ago when the Lonely Assassin's video game was made. She's the main voice in it. Her and Finley Robertson returning as Larry Nightingale. But it's it's um Osgood guiding you through the game and like she even returns for some of the found footage sequences and she's running around Wester Drumland's house and setting up probes and things. And I think she's got celery on her lapel of this stuff. Elvin Quest. Elvin Quest. Alvin Quest. Oh, I haven't found it. I just looking into it. She's also in Penny Dreadfuls, she plays songs. Have you heard that one on the radio and she plays a super spy warrior kitty thing? 19th century and she's sort of like a, like a, as if Gemma Redgrave was playing in appeal. Everything she does is fantastic yet. So she was offered, do you think she was offered a companion piece? I would be very surprised if she wasn't offered more. Yeah. Yeah, she feels like one of those ones. We drop her in when we can get her. Well, is that thing that Moffatt does actually, despite not going to the lengths that Russell does to create people for the doctor to hang out with a no? He does what Todd says, he invents little groups of people that he can bring back and rely on. You know, as a sequel to this and in some ways a kind of rerun of its major kind of moral point. The Zygon inversion invasion is really quite terrific and her role in it is absolutely crucial, isn't it? Her role in that is wonderful. And you want her to join the crew at the end, which is a shame that, you know, that's the last time we see her. Yeah. And could he have made it any better? Could we have got Captain McGumbo? There is a photo of her on the on the, you know, paranoia board. Yes, yes. I love that paranoia. Why we have it. I'm quite sure, but Mikey Yates and Gene Marsh are there in the photo for some reason. And and you get like Ian and Barbara and Susan and... And, and, I think, and Turlo and Chameleon. Yeah, Chameleon. What would we do without missa, okay? Stephen Moffat inspecting that conspiracy board. actually turned to the visual effects department and said, Sarah Kingdom and Mike. Yeah, but that's how can that happen? And the head of the arts pump said, Steve, didn't you create a whole new doctor for this special? And Stephen's like, oh, people can invent stories for them? Yes, Stephen. I actually really like, also, at the beginning, Clara's in her new setting at Old Your School. Isn't that sweet? And her character's getting rewritten. I'm just assuming it's another Clara. It's actually how many have we had now? Yeah, it is a lot of them. 18 or something. There's actually about 16 just in the greater London area. I think it's incredibly confident and amazingly cinematic and it's them just saying, all right, we're pulling out all the stops and that shot of the helicopter with the TARDIS dangling from it flying over London, like, hooray. London's back. You know, we're shooting in Trafalgar Square. It's... Awful weather. It looks so cold. Yeah, the wind's blowing. It's really bad. But it just looks incredible. It looks so spectacular. It's such an event And the movie style opening credits and everything. It's huge, this. Don't they have I am Foreman as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You just got to throw it away, don't you? It's kind of like, yeah, scrapyard this way. head teacher, I Chesterton, head of governors, W. Coburg. Yeah. So good. For that TARDIS flying sequence, Matt Smith did as much of the hanging as he was allowed to under-insurance purposes. See, he was only a few feet off the ground. The way he told, and also Jenna tells her, he was about 80 or 90 metres in the air. dangerous. Like totally attached. Yes. you know, so that like, I think there is behind the scenes footage of him going up and him actually not holding on to the handles. Right You know, he's he's on a harness, which they painted out and what have you, but he's like, no, no, I wanted to do as much of it as physically possible, apparently, like the stuntman was saying that's as high as he's allowed to go. Stop it now. Not holding the handles. Oh my goodness. Yeah, yeah. But that is very mad. The whole beginning is so great. And it's exactly what Russell does for, say, the runaway bride where you get the TARDIS as a physical object doing something different from what we've seen before. And so having the doctor hanging from the Tartars. I just think it's so good. it's so tremendous And their 1st interaction, like when she drives into the TARDIS, and she is as cool as anything and so is he. And they're kind of doing a Steed, Mrs. Peel thing. ironic detachments. No, that. Very, very much so. And I don't think Stephen Moffat's kept it a secret that he's very much an admirer of that time on the Avengers. Yeah. And of course, like the Avengers film, which we've discussed originally opened with before it was cut, Emma Peel driving up to a phone box in the middle of nowhere to answer a ringing phone to get her mission. And that was completely cut, but photos exist and some footage of it is in the trailer. So visually, it is actually very similar. And it is intended to be the same bike as the Bells of St. John. Right. The gravity bike. The gravity bike. Little bites. We always think that it went for longer, didn't it? Because they're just moments of great serotonin oomph. Which series was she in? Serotonin. One of my favourite lines comes from that scene and it's the will there be cocktails line? It's, you know, the doctor gives a little mini Florana speech to her and that's her response. Will there be cocktails? And then all that sort of song froid just drops and they hug one another and they're super happy to see one another. But it's really terrifically good. Very, very true. I think the way in which Clara's written in this episode in the next. sort of, it does make you want more of these 2 together, like for another mini run of 8 episodes. you're left wanting more, which is a good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it wouldn't have hurt to have had a few more episodes of them together in that sort of M appeal, Steve sort of relationship that would have been quite a lot of fun, I think. And odds on and fairness to all the writers. It's actually a Myrna lawyer and William Powell screwball comedy. Well, it comes from Thin Man series and no doubt before that, but Carol Lombard and Clark Gable. We've talked about this a lot. Hitchcock does it perfectly in 39 steps with Madeline Carroll and Donut, Robert Donut, which is one of my favourite films of all time, but they're actually tied up at the end of the bend and she has to get her stockings off. And it's 1934. Britain didn't have a haze code. But the same banter and the whole, we're having a lot of sexual tension here, but we're actually talking about the weather or the latest diabolical mastermind, whatever. And there's that lovely, as you said, the songfight of the dissonance between intention and article. And that's what Stephen Moffatt. Stephen Moffatt really understands tension in dramatic interplay and how, but give it to us, give it to us, as we're always saying to him. I'm just going to put that over there. So you'll think it's coming and you might see a tinge of it, but I'm actually going to throw something else entirely at you. That's what day of the doctor is. It's not at all what I expected, but I enjoyed it all. And in my head, well, it's still five-ish doctors. But in my head, there's a whole lot of other things that have happened, and each time we go back and watch it, it's slightly different again, because again, you notice his minutiae and marginalia on the sides of the screen, but you also get the sense of, I'm still surprised. Even after all this time, I'm still surprised. Yes, I was picking up new things all the time. Back to what you're saying about Clara entering the TARDIS with the motorbike. It gets to show off that magnificent set, but we also get to, of course, see David set and we get to see the in-between set, which with all the round things which they love. It's so good. And yours to get Tom, even in the curator scene, where you've got all of the on the wall. Patrick's bedroom, you know. I love that something that modern who can do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we've got the budget. can do it. Well, so that set still existed, didn't it, in Cardiff at the Doctor Who experience? Yeah, exactly. They actually shut down the doctor experience for a day to film the scenes in David's in David's house. Yeah, absolutely. And then for the John Hurt, TARDIS, the round things walls had been built for an adventure in space and time. So they are the reproduction Billy Walls. Right, yeah. Reproduction Billy. The paint is still wet. Yeah, I love Tenant and the Smith fanboying about the round things. Yeah. Yeah. It seems that by all reports, because really there's 4 doctors in this, because Tom turns up as well. It sounds like Matt Smith is kind of the glue in that David Tennant said to Stephen, look, I'm going to come in, but I'm going to let Matt take the league because it's his show. And of course, you know we're both fans, you know what it's like in the old show when other doctors came on. And apparently 1st day on the Tartar set. Just before they started shooting, Matt walked up to Dave and said now, look, I'm going to be doing controls over here and whatnot. But I don't want to hog the flying duties. If you want to do a bit of dialogue and flick a few switches as well, you're the doctor too. You're adorable. Yeah. And, you know, John Hurt, who knew nothing about Doctor Who after William Hart, all hadn't watched it, said in an interview, you know, he said, yeah, I know what it is, but I don't know what it's about. He said, I have a career for goodness. But he said, I have such respect for Matt and David. You know, they're such good actors. And they can do all the science-y talk. They haven't given me much science-y talk. I'm glad to say, but those 2 just rattle it off while being sad and happy and all this. He's so generous, isn't he? You know, he bumped into Eccleston not long after this. And he said, we've no, no, John Hurt? No, John Hurt? But I'm into Eggleston, because Eccl still talks about how hurt he was. Not no pun. I'm sorry, intended. But, you know, and he's riffed with Russell. It goes very deep. But he came and patted him on the back and said, oh, Chris, we're comingled now. We mingled together. We are a mingled entity. And that's sweet. But that is interesting that he just regenerates. there on the spot. Like, it's done, so I'm going to regenerate. Maybe you buy it more than me. I think that what is happening is that Moffatt is filling in the gaps and so we get to see those 2 doctors who we haven't seen regenerate, we get to see them. Oh, yes, because in the night of the doctor, we've got that as well. And I think possibly narratively you could hand wave it as, you know, he was the doctor who had to find the time war, the time war is over now so he can go away. It is just convenient to fill in the gap. And interestingly enough, you know, people have gone, why didn't they go further with the visual? And there's some fan versions where they do go further? But Stephen Moffett was asked about that a few years later? And he said, given that Chris said he didn't want to appear in it he said, I can do it as a hint, but I felt going fully into Chris's face would be disrespectful. And the interviewer said, so did you ask Chris about that? He said, no, no, no. I feel asking him would have been pressuring him to allow use of his likeness. Chris has said he has a lot of respect for Stephen Moffin. Yeah, totally. Well, I mean, Stephen Moffatt wrote that incredible two-parter for him to be in, so he has acted a Stephen Moffatt script. I think also that it's telling that he's the only doctor who's TARDIS we go into. So we see all of the doctors on the screens in the Galafray war room, but we do actually see Chris saying the thing from inside the Tartars. Yeah, totally. I'm nicking off and you can marry whoever you like, you loose bloody children, you cleaned that up. But then we also get 13 doctors. We also get that little snippet of Capella. What did we think of that? Do you remember? Do you remember your reaction? Did you gasp? I can't remember. I guess, but I grabbed Brendan. Yes, exactly, he did. Grab your Brendan's gender. After 9 years, Are you okay? The bruising's gone down. Yeah, and the swelling... I think I did. I think, yeah, because then they would have had to get him in to film that little bit. Yeah. And he wasn't yet filming and was he not yet filming? No, and we only see his eyebrows partly because that works. That's actually all he is though, isn't he? Also because they haven't worked out what his costume's going to be at the time. Wasn't he still filming Musketeers or? Yes, yeah. Mouseketeers? was that? No, he was. It was Musketeers. So he filmed this on the same day he filmed his side of the regeneration. Oh, okay. for time of the doctor. And if you look at time of the doctor, even though he peers at Jenna, they're never in the same shot. Oh okay. So they did that to fit in with his schedule. So it was this weird thing of Matt actually had to match him when he came to film it. So Jim wasn't there. He wasn't there with Jenna in... Oh, that's a shame. I think not. I'm thinking back and obviously I haven't rewatched Time of the Doctor for the podcast yet, but I think Capaldi and Jenner don't actually appear in the same shot, but I could be wrong. And if I am wrong, it means that yes, they brought Jenna in. Right, right. But yeah, so that's that's when they film that. And yet that was a moment in the cinema. No, unintended. No, I remember there was a fricking roar from that. Because if you didn't know that Matt was going, you'd be going what the hell is this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's the same thing. You know, the paratext is important. The trailers, all of that stuff can be assumed knowledge. And we'd had that special, hadn't we? Yeah, in August. Yeah. Yeah. So Tom Baker's involvement was treated like a big secret. He was picked up at 130 in the morning in a Hessian sack in a Hessian sack. Driven driven to Cardiff to arrive at 430 in the morning, taken out of the Hessian sack and put in makeup and a costume and what have you. And the way Tom tells it is apparently, you know, everyone was very attentive and got me in costume and got me cups of tea and things, but he's like, no one talked to me. There was no conversation and I was just, they were getting it ready and I was just standing on the side of feeling like this sad lonely old man who's just been wheeled out for the coronation or whatever. And then he said, then this tall man with a with a chin and a nose and big and big hair came out of the shadows and Tom, how wonderful to see you. Thank you so much for coming. And as Tom puts it, my gloom was lifted by the arrival of Matt Smith, who welcomed me so enthusiastically that I began to think life was worthwhile. That's so lovely. Speech, holy crap, it's so perfect. Yeah. Was it just him and those 2 on set? It was just those 2 on set. Like that's why Jenna walks off. It's like, let's have as few people on set as possible. The witch has to attend her well. Sorry, I just love that joke. So good. Well, it's from Hyde. That's one of the names of the ghost in high. That's how forgettable hide is. So lovely. just makes me love this even more. We're at the end of this, seeing all the doctors standing there is such a wonderful iconic moment. We've had lines from each of them their final lines, like, over tenant. I want to go, something that... He always says that. That is correct. All 2 times. Like, you can't wait. I don't like it. Yeah, yeah, like Stephen just knows what these lines. I can't wait for Jody to say, I'm letting the door bang me ass. on the way out. Wait, okay. But just that just that whole iconic shot of them all standing there. Beautiful. beautiful. In a way, it doesn't quite end up paying off, I think, because it does promise something different, and it only vaguely promises it because he does say home the long way round, but the circumstances under which he goes home are very different from what these anticipates, I think. Yeah, definitely, definitely. It's a little bit like the end of the 5 doctors where, you know the doctor goes on the run again. you know, and so we've got a sort of new start to the show after that special and now we get it again with the 50th, you know, he's got a new lease of life. He's not heading inevitably towards Transilore. He's got some other mission. Yeah, well, that's the thing. It gives the fact that they were able to change the past tells him you know, then the 10th doctor says to him, we need a new destination. And it's like it's something we can change. You know, I know, Nathan, for instance, that you and I disagree on Lake Silencio, whether the doctor originally died or not. You say, yes, he did and then the past changes, whereas I'm like it's always been this way. But this is a situation where I'm like, no, no, no, he did definitely blow up Gallifrey the 1st time. and then needed to grow and heal in order to realise there was a better way. But because John Hurt isn't going to remember it, It still leads to the same growth. That is such a clever bookending. I hadn't thought that the 2 related before. Yes. Todd, what were you thinking? Oh no, I just love the fact that John Hare can't retain things because the time streams are out of sync. It's something that we always say when doctors meet each other and now it's been verbalised. So that helps me cross the T's and dot the I. Although I quite like Matt Smith's other theory, which is that David Tennant's just not paying attention. Look, in the end, this is, I just think, joyous and Stephen does an extraordinary job and it's near perfect, which is why I give it a 9 out of 10. Well, Delicious, that's all we have time for. For now. We'll be back, basically, immediately, with another episode of Flight through Entirety, in which we discuss the day of the doctor. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FT Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. Until next time, may you fail doing the right thing, as opposed to succeeding in doing the wrong one. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Well, I won't be speaking to it. of you ever again after what you've just said, but yes. That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd, but it'll be Nathan Bottomley, Brandon, Jones, and Richard Stone. Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb. This episode, the glue that holds everything together, was recorded on the 24th of July 2022 and released on the 23rd of November. So, you've now heard what the original flight through Entirety Cast have to say about the day of the doctor, but stay tuned to your podcatcher of choice. where you'll find a 2nd episode with our new series cast discussing the same story. I'll see you over there. So August 2013, they announced it was Peter Capaldi. Yeah. Because when they were filming this, Matt was still under talks to possibly do series 8. Right. And I actually wonder, um, and, you know, where I'm flashing forward, but we have mentioned foreshadowing Danny Pink that, um there's also a teacher in there who sort of floppy haired and has a bow-time one. Well, the guy who runs in to tell Clara that her doctor called is floppy haired and a bit Matt Smith-ish. So I wonder if Moffatt was already thinking ahead of, hey, if I can get this guy back, they obviously went down a different path. Yeah, and I do, I do, knowing what I know now, I did, I did wonder watching that scene. It's like, he's a bit Matt Smithy and a bit breakfast, a bit breathless. Also for breakfast. All right. I think we need an out. Um, look, I don't know. We're at the end. of this. Seeing all the doctors standing there is such a wonderful iconic moment.