It’s No Arc of Infinity

Hello Welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that's releasing just one episode today on the day of the doctor. Actually, it's our 1st day here. I'm Nathan. I'm James. I'm Simon. I'm Peter. It's been a mere moment since we were discussing the 50th anniversary special of Doctor Who, but there's a lot more to say and still more people left to say it. So here we are again, remembering what happened on the day of the doctor. So I actually started our previous episode this way, and I'm going to do it again. Peter, can you remember where you were when you 1st saw this episode? I can. I was in my sitting room in London and I had around me an array of people who I'd been friends with for decades because of Doctor Who. So Simon was there and our friend Matt, Matt Jones. and various other people. as well, Fiona was there. Todd was there. Todd was there, of course. And so we all watched it together and we all had that kind of collective fan experience. Yep, Paul was there. That collector fan experience that really, I don't think I'd had since the curse of Fenrick in 1989 when we all gathered round to watch it for the 1st time together. So it was it was a pretty special experience actually. And so I don't need to ask you, Simon. Well, same answer, but it wasn't my living room. But if I could just say the great thing about that, even though a number of us had gone to Britain for the 50th anniversary, like Todd and Fiona and I, for instance, all separately, it was lovely having all in the main Australians in the room because in each nation for different reasons because of different broadcast schedules and so on, we all have a slightly different experience of the program. And so it was great to share the Australian experience with other Australians even though we were watching it in Britain. Yeah, absolutely. And James. can't remember. Oh, come on, we went to... Yeah, I just seem to remember turning up with a lot of sparkling Shiraz at 6 o'clock in the morning or something and we had a few drinks. I had to drive. So I had to be well behaved. And then we watched it on IView. And then you and I went to the cinema, to the Dandy up the road here and watched it again. watched it again in 3D. That was when I was living in Waterloo, wasn't it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It was the culmination of a pretty amazing week, I think. And, you know, flight through entirety is partly about our experiences of watching Doctor Who as much as it is about the show itself. And so this was pretty seminal. I have very, very strong memories of watching the 5 doctors for the 1st time. I know exactly where I was and the fact that I wasn't in Sydney and so I could actually watch it because there was no blackout or whatever. Yeah, lost the 1st hour of it. Parts of Sydney. This was huge. It was one of those times where Doctor Who really connected with the mainstream audience. So I can think of, since the series came back, There was probably a week or 2 in 2008, around Journey's end, and the stolen earth where Doctor Who was absolutely the zeitgeist, and people who were not fans were talking about it and asking you about it. It was a newspaper headlines and the stars were all over the TV in different shows. And this was the 2nd time. That week leading up to the airing of the day of the doctor. Doctor Who was everywhere. Just everywhere you looked. There was mentions of Doctor Who and people talking about talk to. And of course, Simon, you might remember that we went to the big convention, which was held in London over the 3 days. Yes. Yes, and I can't, for the life of me, remember which day it was that we were there. Was it the Saturday or the Sunday? Because it was only one day that you went. We were there Saturday and Sunday. Todd went on Friday as well with Fiona. It was excessive, wasn't it? But the thing was, it wasn't. You just revelled in it. It was so amazing, the feeling. Let's move on to the episode itself, though. I think it absolutely is aware that it's being watched by a massive group of people and that this is a big deal. And just watching it yesterday. It just struck me how incredibly cinematic the beginning is. It's interesting what you say about like the number of people watching because this is probably the Doctor Who episode that's been washed by the most people ever at the same time. It was simulcast around the world. It, you know, like they, didn't they sort of work out that it had maybe like 90000000 viewers or something crazy like that across across all different countries. That's where it was brought. That's actually an interesting thing because, I mean, more so now but even by 2013, the need to watch something on broadcast had already started to fall away. So this idea of this communal experience where everyone you know is watching the same thing. Yeah, water cooler moments. Yeah, and having the water cooler moment, et cetera. And I think that this was obviously something that everyone did make the effort to watch as it went out. Um, even in the wee small hours of the morning, uh, at this side of the wall. Yeah, yeah. It was really quite early. Were you unspoiled? Does anyone remember whether they knew, for instance, that Tom was going to show up? didn't know that. That is one thing I did not know. Yeah, yeah, I didn't either. And I also think Capaldi appearing for just that brief shot is a pretty remarkable thing. This could have been anyone's eyes. don't think so. The eyebrows on the other hand. Their attack eyebrows. That's back eyebrows. It's funny though, with that scene, I mean, we're getting probably getting ahead of ourselves, but no, I didn't know that Tom was going to turn up, but basically about 15 seconds before he does you think Tom Baker's about to show up, isn't he? Oh, really? I actually had this kind of premonition when he says, I'm sure I did. I don't think I'm just, you know, thinking about this in retrospect. When, you know, everyone leaves Matt alone in front of the painting and the caretakers around. It was either going to be Tom or it was going to be Peter Capaldi. Oh, okay, yes, of course, of course. I mean, obviously, letting us hear his voice before we see him is absolutely the right move. We didn't mention who the director was in our last episode, but it's Nick Curran. Oh, the fabulous current. Yeah, it's amazing. And just talking about that scene with the curator, it absolutely gives you goosebumps, not just the way that it's scripted and Tom and Matt's brilliant chemistry, but it's directed beautifully with the cut to Tom suddenly being next to Matt where you've only heard his voice previously. And then when he leaves, he sort of fades into the background out of focus, as he parts the room, it's pretty amazing. Yeah, Harran's incredible, isn't he? I mean, I think he's one of the best directors of the modern era if not the best. And this episode tries to bring original series, Doctor Who, and new Doctor Who together. And I think that moment is the focus of it because not only do you have Tom Baker, the acme of original Doctor Who, opposite Matt Smith, and they really work well together. It feels like the marriage of the 2 parts of the series that you've been waiting for, all in one scene. Yeah. Well, I think that that's what this is doing, isn't it? And we had, you know, just in night of the doctor just a week or so ago we have the sisterhood of Khan being brought into the fold. This time we finally get zygons after, you know, imagining them turning up the most obvious sort of one shot monster to be recreated. And this is very much that. We end with a shot of all of the doctors, old and new series together in the, in the one show that's been kind of finally healed of the 16 year gap in the middle of it. And I mean, let's not be, um, you know, there was talk at the time that, you know, it couldn't be a proper anniversary special, unless it had Peter Davison and Colin Baker and Paul McGannon and that. I think they made the right choice. It was just, you needed to focus in on something. He couldn't just have a bunch of cameos by people who hadn't played the role for 30 years. No. No. And I mean, the 5 doctors basically is that. But in a sense, the 5 doctors is a children in need special. It's a light entertainment thing. It is we just haul everyone out to do their party piece and there's no story as such. Oh, I think that's a bit unkind. Yeah, you got Terrence Sticks, right? That's the criticism. No, no, I think you're redconning the fact that it was part of children in need to justify that. I mean, watching it as an 11 year old in Australia. Oh, it was the best thing ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, sorry, watching the last half hour of it. until it was repeated in January. The 5 Doctors is my earliest memory of Doctor Who. And you'd have been like three. Four, yeah, three, 3 or four. Yeah. But what we have here is a bit more ambitious than the 5 doctors because it is trying to tell a story about the doctor. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, 5 doctors is confident and fun and funny and wonderful in all sorts of ways. And I guess it takes the same approach to story as these stars. I mean, this is telling 2 stories, but they're both individually fairly straightforward stories. There's a point that Moffat has made in interviews, which is that Doctor Who is rarely about the doctor and this story is about the doctor. The doctor is the focus of this story in a way that he events usually happen around him and he happens to events, but events don't happen to him. And you can't view the special in isolation. It's the day of the doctor, but we've also had the name of the doctor, the night of the doctor, and we will have the time of the doctor. So it's kind of the whole anniversary year is about the doctor and what he stands for. It's an episode about big things, deservedly, about big things. I think, you know, of course it's the 50th, but it's going to be about the biggest thing that we never saw in Doctor Who, which is the time war. And the time war is the thing, that Bridges, classic Doctor Who and new Doctor Who in the fiction of the show. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So how do what do we feel about how that's portrayed and how that's realised? Can I answer my own question? Yeah, please. That's one of the disappointments for me about it. I mean, I love it. There's so much about it to love. There's so much about this to love, but I just don't think it all quite lands. And unfortunately, the time war is as shown in those, not the very opening scene, but early on, I actually find it quite unimaginative. It sort of new Star Wars meets Terminator with all the operatic and coral incidental music, which says this is dramatic. Um, And if it's a time war, right? That implies something so much more exciting. This is just a war. What we're seeing is a war, right? That could be anything. Whereas a time war. You're talking about abstract. Exactly. A time war is something between 2 races capable of time travel. It almost needs to be incredibly funky, and the ultimate weapon is to go back in time and prevent your enemy from actually being born or whatever, which is kind of actually what the time lords tries to do in genesis of the Daleks, right? Which is what starts the time or... Well, but that's a good way. I don't know whether it's stated. It's not stated in the show. That was that was Russell's thinking. Yes, okay, but that's a backstory. That's not something that's... The Zigon's planet was destroyed in the early years of the time war. And we've had the nestings as well who've been affected by the time war as well. Russell's time war is utterly unfilmable, isn't it? And I think... Deservedly so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were mentioning the other day, like Russell's version of the time war is just completely. Like you say, unfilmably. It's inconceivable. It's fantastic. It's... I don't know that any of that's true. Sorry, because I don't get the sense that when I hear that the fact that the Zygon planet, or the nesting planet, or whatever it is, is destroyed by the time war, I'm not getting that it's anything other than a great big bomb destroying. No, no, no, that's not what I mean. Like when Russell, like, writes about the time war. It is, like the language, the description is, you know, like, you know, the sometimes king, the nightmare child. That was a demonstration. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so all that kind of stuff is just is just bollocks, you know. No, but it isn't, it doesn't, no, it's just words. It's not actually, it's not actually interesting. I think that gets to the heart of what you're saying, even if you don't particularly like the words that Russell uses. He's describing the war in abstract terms. So it's just this, it's just this thing off to the side, which you can, you can put anything onto it that you want to. Yeah, you can't imagine this is actually... No, no, fair, fair. And that's my point. Fair enough, from that point of view. But I still think that there's a much more interesting way of, even if it's just a couple of lines of dialogue to describe the kinds of things that might be happening in a time war, which aren't just a whole lot of Dalek flying sauces attacking Gallifrey. I think, though, that the time war that we get here is the most gun time war imaginable. And that's why I don't like it, but that's why the doctor shouldn't be being involved in it. Exactly. I mean, I've never liked this kind of thing. I mean, Doctor is the soldier. I mean, you know, I spent my childhood watching, you know, the per wheat doctor on repeats. I'm not that old. being anti-military, not in the same way that we come to see him Capaldi, but still being the gun is the last resort. I'm not saying it makes it terrible as a result. I'm just saying it makes it not nearly as interesting as it might. Surely that is the point of the episode in the character, the war doctor is to show that this war has perverted this character. And the purpose of the story is not just to heal the, you know, the division between the original and new series. It's to heal the damage that's been done to that character by the time war. Yeah. By Russell, you know, like Russell makes the doctor someone who has killed all of the time laws. Yeah, yeah. And we kind of justify that in end of time part too, because the time lords are now totally evil and utterly genocidal as well in a way that we're not going to mention in this end. In this episode. Well, hilary 4, this is arguably before the event. No, it's happening at the same time. Because the general says, oh, you know, the high council have their own plans or whatever, but then their plans are, let's kill everything. But it's not just that because like in end of time. There is a line, which is the moment has been stolen. Yeah Yeah. So Russell invents the moment. Yes. Right, okay. And so this is this is actually red conning that. No, it's happening at the same time. Yeah, exactly. or in Arcadia or something at his sort of fabulous table and then Timothy Dalton's upstairs spitting and yelling at people and throwing time. Do we like the fact that all the gala friends seem to be dressed like this is Sisterhood of Khan? They will have the same kind of colour scheme. Maybe they're the other sisterhood of calm. The London-based system. But the funny thing about that is are we getting a distinction in those time or sequences between gala frames and time lords? Maybe. Because there is that suggestion that time, not, you know, all time lords are gala frames, but not all gala frames. Maybe they're Shebogans. How terrible is boring. that would have been. Let's hope no one ever clears that up. I mean, that paging big finish. please don't do that. I have to say, I agree with both what Simon and James are saying. I agree with me more. I do agree with you. I agree with James that, you know, it's good. Yeah, it's really great that Moffat sets out to heal the idea of the doctor as warrior. I think that's a really interesting element to bring to the doctor's character that there was this part of him who had to act he didn't want to, and he's kind of shunned him and he shunned himself ever since. But what time I'm saying about kind of the way that the war is presented. I understand that it's for a wide audience. We want big effects and things like that. But as with the rest of this episode, and I really do like it. There's some brilliant parts of it. It felt like it was one or 2 drafts away from being really good. And I think if Moffat had had more time. He might have come up with something cleverer to depict the actual time war rather than Daleks attacking from the sky and people running away. Yeah, I worry that it's actually one or 2 drafts too many, maybe. It could be the other problem. Maybe, yeah. Do you think that's because this story went through production hell? They did try and get Eccleston for quite a long time before he said no? And there were also points at which, well, like after after series 7 is completed, the only main cast member who is contracted to Doctor Who is Jenna Coleman. So there was a point where if Matt had actually gone, I'm done, no anniversary, especially, like he wrote a version of the script called The No Doctors. I mean, I mean, absence of the doctor. I mean, I don't think that was ever seriously entertained very long. I think there was no indication that Matt was never going to come back, even though he was not officially under contract. Not contract. I think for maybe half a day, Moffat sat there thinking, if I don't have any doctors, what do I rise? But it was never a serious script or a version of the script. I think the thing that really mucked it up was that for a long time it was going to be Eccleston's doctor. And I think that would have made actually for a better story. It would have made for a more cohesive story within the fiction of Doctor Two. But having said that, if we couldn't get Eccleston, I think this was an elegant way out of it. Yeah, I don't think that it changes it all that much. I think it's just nicer for us as fans had Eccleston been in there. But I don't actually think fun, and obviously some things would have been different, but at the same time, I don't know whether certain fundamental things that I'm complaining about would have actually been different. I kind of disagree with that. I think it's actually better for having heard in it because not just their sort of superficial points where, you know, like Eccleston in-rose is newly regenerated. It's very clear. Yes, it's very clear. And, you know, so it doesn't work in that on that level, but I think it doesn't work for the character because this is not a man who would commit genocide. This is a man who has committed genocide and regrets it and is completely broken by it. So. But do we know how different the Eccleston version would have been? Was the Eccles still in version, anything more than a script outline is what I'm sort of saying? I don't think it ever leaked, but I do know that Stephen wrote some of it because he showed it to Christopher Angleston. Yeah. And then, like, seriously considered it being McGann's doctor. But then the baby C rejected. And the BBC said, no, he's not big enough. Paul McCann. It wouldn't have really mattered. But again, surely for the purposes of the 50s. What does it matter? Yeah, if you can get John Hurt, parachute John Hurt into the show. Yeah, that's right. It gives us John Hurt, a seriously good actor. Yeah, seriously. What the hell is he doing in this time? Oh, I can't do anything. They are, but it also... It helps with that healing with the old series because he's an old man doctor. He's a heart and all or a pert one. And so we need that figure in the story. Because what you wouldn't have got with Eccleston is the hilarious critique that he brings to his success as performance ticks and character and all of that. It's amongst my favourite parts of the story. It really great. Because, I mean, Tennant makes fun of him. You know, I'm really digging the sort of posh gravel. And so he gets to do that. And so that's a big element of the old series that would otherwise not have been there. I don't think you can have Eccleston critiquing his successes because he's like them. Yes, he's part of the new thing. In some respects, John Heard is the distillation of the original series doctrinist. Yes, they brought back Peter Davis and it would have turned to David Tennant and said, do try and speak English. Do people want to say nice things? I've got not nice things to do. I have nice things to say. Not nice things to say about the repartee. Oh, well, that's the best part of it for me. Talk about it. Yeah, no, I mean, I just think those lines are funny. It's what we've come to expect from a multi doctor special. Yeah, you know, they make fun of one another and that's sort of terribly great. And just all of those sort of moffety lines. I think the moment after Tenet critiques John Hurt for his gravelly posh voice, that's the moment where Matt Smith calls him Dick Van Dyke. of his patently crap. London accent. But the 1st line from Matt, though, about, well, I've never seen it from the outside. That's like special. Yeah, it's it's just nice for them to. I mean, it's the old sort of fancy pants scarecrow. on speed. And I don't know whether it's the sort of the bickering between you know, Trouton and Pertwee and the 3 doctors that means that this has to become a staple. I mean, that's it clearly what everything has been based on in every multi doctor gathering is those scenes from the 3 doctors and they are unbeatable. Yeah, and arguably that's one of the things wrong with the 5 doctors is that there isn't enough doctors together. Yes, I mean, that bit of pairs. Yeah, that bit at the end of the 2 doctors where the 2nd doctor turns to the 6th and says, I think space and time should be big enough for the 2 of us. Just. It is one of my favourite parts. No, no, no. The justice because he's just eaten a whole family pay area. Oh, okay, yeah. And all the rest of it at the restaurant. I always took that as him looking at Colin saying, no, no, no, no no, no. In the chest, because he cuts his stomach. Yeah, his stomach because he's eaten it all at Oscar Botchibi's restaurant. Yeah, yeah. At Las Cadina. But also he does... He also does kind of look Colin up and down. Exactly. It's funny. I'll have to watch the Bluey. doesn't he? He does. He does. He gives him a very side. He gives him side eye. Anyway, what don't you like about the repartee, how dare you? It's Stephen Moffat. He's a sitcom writer. A very accomplished and skilful sitcom writer. I think it's fun. I think it's really fun and I like the repartee between David Tennant and Matt Smith, but it doesn't quite hit the spot for me sometimes. There are some funny and there are some charming moments, mostly in the performances, but I think it's a little bit purele with the whole sand shoes, chinny, skinny, I just, I just don't think it really holds a candle too. So you're my replacement is a dandy and a cloud, which is the absolute height. Yeah, that withering put down from the 1st doctor. I just I mean, I don't hate it. Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy it. I just, I felt it wasn't quite clever enough, to be honest. It's interesting because I would agree that some of those, you know, little criticisms are a bit puerile, but because they're generally just thrown away, I don't think it matters. I think that's why it's, it works for me is because they're just they're just included in a sentence rather than signposted too much. I mean, I think it's kind of the tyranny of high expectations. I expect Moffatt's dialogue to be so clever. And I just didn't really find these kind of these traded barbs all that clever. Am I saying that he doesn't reach the heights of Bob Baker and Dave Martin? I might be saying that. But I think is script edited by Terrence Steve. Well, yes. But I mean, is he keeping his powder dry for the big scene, which is in some ways the most important scene of the episode, which is the 3 doctors together in the tower, where a real proper critique starts to happen, where tenants doctor critiques Smith for not caring about what happened. He can't remember any longer how many children were killed. Is that how long it takes to forget? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then kind of Matt critiquing tenet for not moving on for not for dwelling on it. Yeah, there is a shift in tone there. And that's a very good description to have. Yeah, it absolutely is. And I like the fact that it shifts from the usual kind of, so you're my replacements dialogue to being about something more. That's good. Because I think it's the 1st time the doctor has had a really serious event in his history that he can react to as a character. And so the 2 doctors who are there react differently and critique one another. Whereas, you know, usually Doctor Who's just a whole bunch of stuff that happened and then we forget it at the end of episode 4 that get on with our lives. you know, this big event that's kind of distorted the program and weighed down on the character in a really big way is something that the 2 characters can have genuine differences about. One of the disappointments that I have with it. And this is, again, the, you know, the problem with high expectations is one of the joys of the multidoctor specials is always having a mix-up of a doctor and a companion. You know, you have having Perry with Trouton for a bit in the 2 dogs, for instance. And you kind of miss that here because Billy is not playing rose. Billy is playing the moment. Yeah. I don't think Rose fits in here. Like, I just think that that's too much. And I think that Moffatt makes the right decision to give her a different character to play. And it's the usual kind of Moffatt thing. It's a little bit like Idris not being able to tell the difference between the past and the future. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, but and I think she's magnificent. Oh, she's superb. she is excellent. I don't deny any of that. It's just that it's the 11 year old in me watching the 5 doctors and then the 2 doctors a few years later and loving that sort of thing and just thinking totally with Simon. Wouldn't it be great if you've had a scene with Rose and Matt Smith, you know? It just, I think Clara and Clara and Tennant, or Clara... Yes, and that, so you get a little bit of it from that point of view. Yeah. I mean, you kind of want Susan with the 5th doctor and like you said in the 2 doctors, Jamie with the 6th doctor and Perry with the 2nd doctor. It's a heartwarming fan glow. I do think there's not enough room in this story for it. I'm not sure how David Tennant turning up with Martha or something would have impacted the special well, but... Any companion would have been barely, they'd have had very, like, 4 lines and have been 3 scenes kind of thing. Imagine if they've got Catherine Tape back. For example, we should have had more lines than that. whether they were in the script or not. I'd say, it would have been beautiful if in the last scene Martha had come to the door of the Tars and said, come on, doctor, where have you been? Just a little cameo like that would have maybe go, oh. He is very restrained, isn't he? In that the two stories that he tells in this episode are fairly straightforward, and he has like nearly an hour and 20 minutes to play with, and that does give the story time to breathe. I think it's not as frenetic as some other new series episodes have been. And so it just gives us time to do that character exploration which is so crucial for what this story is doing. I mean, I think sometimes it gives it a little bit too much time to breathe. I think those early scenes with David Tennant and Elizabeth go on forever. But I've been self-indulgent. Yes, they are. But I mean, the opening scene where we do this that sort of giant set piece with the helicopter flying over London and suddenly London's back. Yeah, you can't not... Yeah, I mean that's a great way to start the show. Oh, but we haven't spoken about the way the program really does start with the fabulous recreation of the heart and laughing credits in widescreen. wide screen stereo. And when I say widescreen, I mean widescreen, not stretched. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that thing too. We're back at Coal Hill School as well. Now, is that by any chance the same building as Remembrance? No, no, no, that's in that building is in Wales. Is it right? Okay. I do love the name of the head of the board of governors. Yes, it's... I like the fact that the doctors put a convenient sign towards the scrapyard right up next to the school in case Susan loses her way in the fog. But like, I mean, in an earthly child. She is quite far away from the school. They have to get in a car and follow her. No, it's cheating. It's terrible. Like whatever. It's just that, like, they've taken the door off the hinges. Finally, it's just sort of lying there for no particular reason. It is very odd. But, I mean, that whole scene is terrifically funny and Matt and Jenna are wonderful together, like that, you know, will there be cocktail scene, the Florana speech. Do you notice the time of the clock? No. It's 516. Oh, right. which is when the 1st episode went out. Yeah, perfect. We're about to tune in for a brand new adventure. Yeah, but all that stuff with Queen Elizabeth in the Zygon is a bit tedious and I hate to say it. I mean, Zygons are something that I've wanted to have come back for the entirety of my family. And is something that has been missing. And unfortunately, once again, it's like, I think the essence of what makes the Zygons, what made the Zygons great is lost. They just become this sort of thing. Slavering, lurching. Rather than this claustrophobic, insidious, dangerous sort of thing. They're just a comic, a bit of comedy, really. They certainly become that. Dare I say it? John Wood nutty enough. Yeah, well I think that that's probably the thing. I think that it's the fact that they don't get to be characters outside of being Zygon. I want my zygons to say the polar ice caps must go. I mean, the camera... I don't want them to lurch from the shadows going, there. My family has served this county for 7 centuries, but that seems not to count these days. Was that was that Broton or was that Tom doing Broton? I do beg your pardon? They really missed a trick. Not having one of the Zygons have a door slammed in their face they could whisper, open this door. But oh, the bit with Osgood and the inhaler is great, especially after they've had their memories wiped and, you know, the zygon one passes over the inhaler and then puts finger to the lips. That's so good. That's such a great episode. It's kind of like... That's actually the human. Like she took her puffer back. She hands it to the Zygon gosh. No, but when the Zigon, but when the Zigon, I was good. In the previous sequence, Zygon Osgood looks over her, she's, you know, on the floor crying and whatever, you know, in a state and says, oh, I hate having one with a defect. Can I have my inhaler, please? And so the Zigon would have the inhaler at that point. No, no, no, she pulls, she pulls the scarf and runs off. She escapes the Zigon and takes her and takes her puffer back. Sorry. I watched it last time. Okay, okay, no, okay, that's an important distinction though. Well, it's nice though. It kind of works nicely either way. They know. Like, they actually realise which one is the... Yes, their memory's been erased in safaris, which ones are Zigon and which ones are humid, but not in that which one of them has the inhaler. No, but so they've worked it out. Yes, exactly. They worked it out. Yes, yes. The thing is that they both agree to it. So they're not agreeing to this thing for space reasons because their mind has been white. They're actually going along with this negotiation plan because they realise it's best for all of them. Yeah, it's very good. And it's such a great moment. such a great character moment as well because it makes you realise that actually there might be some kind of affinity between the Zigon and the human that it's copied, but there might be something going on there because they do share this little smile with each other and you think, I think they probably like each other. And I think that will be continued in the Zygon 2 parter that's coming up in future years. Which I think is extremely good. I have to say. I mean, that looks good again. That look is the basis of an entire two-parter. Basically, yeah. But her performance is just generally so good. She's wonderful. It's just such a shame that we have such a fan pleasing thing as bringing the Saigons back, which I'm totally on board with, but then we lose what their essence is. We lose what they could be any monster being brought back. And I think that would be ice warriors. Yeah, and I actually think that it's a waste in this 50th because there's too much else to do. And so you're not going to bring them back with the right amount of bang. That's right. And the reason that they're quite of slavering monsters is that they don't have anything particularly Zigon-esque to do. Exactly. There's nothing really for them to do, and that's the problem. It's a very one-dimensional bit of story. They are plot device. Exactly. In fact, it's the story that's interrupted by the moment effectively, yeah. So it's not an important story in itself and it's slightly weird that both doctors are involved in it from different ends as well. Yeah, yeah. But it is extremely thin, like not very much happens and so we don't get the opportunity to hear very much from the zygons. There's that one that comes in and speaks to Queen Elizabeth with the whispering voice, but otherwise we don't get any of that. And actually, I don't like the Queen Elizabeth. I don't think you mean, she's no Cape Blanchard. You weren't a fan of Gavin and Stacy? This is Stacy from Gavin and Stacy. I didn't watch that. So she is... well there you go. See, being cast because you're someone is not a good decision. Well, no, we don't know. Did you hear us? She was cast. What? Yes, exactly. Yes, is anyone? Like, I don't mind her, but... Yeah, yeah. I just think it's, it felt like it needed a star name and needed a dare I say it? Helen Mirren or someone like that to actually lift those scenes because it's someone like that playing her. But you're kind of suggesting that it isn't star name. No, but it needs a star name who's a star name because they're really good. Yeah, as opposed to just being... She's a comedy. A comedy star. Yeah, yeah. She's a wellknown actress for television at this point. Yeah. So it's a reasonably big coup. She is, I mean, she does get some pretty funny lines. I do like the, I may have had the body of a feeble woman. Yeah, that's pretty good. I think, though, that's a pre-existing line. I know. Deploying it to involve Zygon. Yes. The problem is when you have to set it to have a young Elizabeth. Yeah, who are your choices for a famous gravitas? Yeah. actress? We've already seen that, hadn't we? In Shakespeare code. And so this is kind of Moffatt delivering on a running gag that Russell has. So firstly, the Shakespeare code, we get Queen Elizabeth is angry at the doctor for something and we don't know what it is. Yeah, then in end of time, part one, we discover he's just had sex with her or something. And then we see the marriage finally. And there are the references to Queen Elizabeth as well throughout the program. I mean, apart from the fact that at the end of Curse of Pilladorn they're going to dash off to the 1st part one of the chase. No, but there's, but there isn't there, isn't there another reference to in, in a Christmas carol, maybe, about, um, queen singers, people making it confused? He does get married again in the Christmas carol to Marilyn. Monroe. Yes, yes. And so we have seen that the doctor is married 3 times. It's a river song. He's a polygamist. Well, you know they die. Red song, Kameka, first. No, proposed. That's a proposal. Yeah, engage through it. He leaves her at the altar. It's that thing about modern takes. We were talking about the time lords before. And don't get me wrong, I do like this episode. I think it hits with what it set out to do, especially with the general public, but there's something about the modern takes in this episode, which don't quite work. So we talked about the Zygons and how their reimagination doesn't really hit, but the time lords don't hit for me as well. We talked about this on the end of time podcast that we did. It's jettisoned everything that was interesting about the time lords. They're kind of their academic society. So not very much then. You should have seen Nathan's face just then. I mean, actually, that is the point. The only person who ever made. No arc of Infinity. The only person who ever made Time Lord's interesting was Bob Hose in the Deadly Assassin. And it mystified me in the end of time, how Russell ejected all of those trappings about, you know, the academic structure of the society and the politics behind the scenes. And that was what made them interesting. They just turned out to be ranting cod Shakespearean characters in their time. And Moffat takes that and runs with it here. And so those scenes with the time Lords are so uninteresting. Yeah, it's lazy writing again, I think. Well, not so much lazy. I'm just not sure. Again, maybe he didn't have the time or the drafts to kind of do anything interesting with those. It's just slightly disappointing. Like Moffat does jettison the Russell idea that the time lords are massively evil and are going to kill everyone. That slightly needed to be destroyed. And that puts a different moral kind of cast on the decision to blow them up, you know, the doctor blew up the timelines because he knew that what they were planning was to basically kill everything and become immortal aliens. Is that the Russell reason why he did it? Or is it... Because, I mean, for me, at least in this, the reason why the war doctor is going to do it is that there is no way to stop the violence, to stop the collateral damage. The only way to stop the collateral damage of all these other planets being affected is to basically destroy the dogs and the time lords. Yeah. There's that line that we were talking about now Night to the Doctor podcast. She wanted to see the universe. Yeah, she didn't miss much. It's very nearly over, is what Oheila says in response to that. And so it does threaten everywhere. So that's right. But end of time reveals an extra bit of information that the timelords are worse than the Daleks, because what they're planning is sort of ascension where everything else is destroyed and they become sort of disembodied rulers of what's left. So killing them was to stop that. But there is space, there is space in this for both of those interpretations because it is the High Council, not all of the High Council. It's basically Rastalon, like wanting to do this. The, you know, these are the time lords who have been living this war who appear. Yeah, they're downstairs. Yeah, like he's upstairs, they're downstairs. And then there's, you know, the gala friends in the street who don't have a choice in the matter either. Yeah, so in a way, it's entirely consistent with what we know about the time wards previously and that there's always been a few bad actors. Well, in many ways. There's always been a few bad actors within their society. It's just for the time lords to be interesting. They need to be whimsical in some ways. There needs to be a spandrel. and an Engian and a Hill Red who can't get his act together. Whereas these are just Shakespearean characters espousing at each other. And that's exactly what Russell wanted to avoid when he brought the show back by getting rid of the timelords. And then he fell straight into the trap in the end of time. And again, I just wish we'd had something more interesting here. Yes. I just wouldn't have wanted the time loss to get much more attention than they get here. I mean, that is a point. No, but I think that's the reason why we've ended up with the kind of time launch that we have is because to do them properly would become this incredibly self-indulgent story about them. Yes, and then it's just, and I think they're trying to keep them a little bit mysterious in that, well, let's not talk too much about them so that, you know, we don't categorise them too much. Let's let Big Finish do that for Exactly. box sets. Yes, and they are less aggravating than they are in the end of time where you have Timothy Dalton doing his best. I know everyone else loves those. And you have, yes, mysterious woman covering her eyes and the scribbling woman and everything. You think, what is this that I'm watching? But the time lords in the original series are criticised by the doctor and appear as past their prime, they're an ancient society which doesn't do anything. They just sit around, their society is calcifying. Everything's kind of grinding to a halt. Like, it's like the heat death of the universe kind of thing. Whereas the modern series is, you know, Russell and so on has made them villains, properly villains, like as a group. Regardless of what you're saying about the upstairs or the downstairs, one's doing different things. trying to make them more malevolent. kind of made them all powerful rather than just omnipotent. Yeah, and I think that was, I mean, that's a decision. It's not a decision I particularly liked. I'd rather than be kind of the original series version, even when less than ideally executed in something like Ark of Infinity. I just don't think there is a definitive original series version because every time they appear, perhaps, perhaps less so after the deadly assassin, they're different. And certainly the time lords that you see at the end of the war games are absolutely not the time lords you see in the deadly assassin. 100%. So you have War Games 3 doctors time laws. Don't forget the 1st 2 minutes of colony in space. Well, that's kind of lumped into the 3D purchase. But you have those time lords. And then you have the deadly assassin on. And I think the deadly assassin on ones are, broadly speaking, all the same. It's just that some are done much better. Right. Yeah, some have Bob Holmes rising them and some have Johnny Burn rice. Yeah exactly. Or, or, you know, Pip and Jane. Ex, for example. But even information of time for all its failings is still better realisation of time lord society. Yeah, Invasion of Time takes the deadly assassin and runs with Invasion of Time has that version of Barusa, who is possibly the single one. we've ever seen. Is Invasion of Time of David Agnew script. It is. I think it is. Graham Williams. Graham Williams. Yeah. Anyway, the point being that they're rubbish. They are indeed. They're slightly less rubbish than the end of time, but they're still... They're not interesting. They're just a plot device to create this massive war, right? I think that his little friend. Like, you know, there's the main general who will later on be shot by Peter Capaldi. With that personally named Ken Bones. Ken Bones will turn into Tenaya Miller in one of the triumphs of frame for generation. And then his little friend has that fabulous. I love the collar. it looks really great. But yeah, I mean, they're an aesthetic thing and we have as little of them as we can get away with. And so the, when we have the conundrum that they're having in London, where Kate is wondering whether she needs to blow up, or seriously considering blowing up London, killing 1000000s of people, because that's better than the alternative. I find that parallel, it's all a bit kind of forced and obvious that we're going to have these 2 decisions. Like the doctor's having to make this decision. The war doctor's having to make this decision and Kate's having to make this decision. the same decision, really. Moffatt lampshades that he says. There's a line from the war doctor, which is the bad wolf girl, she showed me exactly the future I needed to see. She manipulated all 3 of them to create this story. Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not... doesn't make it good though. It doesn't work because the war doctor's takeaway from that conversation is that in future his regret for what he's done will inspire him to save many, many other people, including Kate and the Zygons here. And so he goes back. And so do the other 2 doctors. They go back determined to press the button. Yes. And the real thing that the doctor needed to see was the thing in the tower where the war doctor makes the decision to set the extruder over in motion, and then we have 400 years in the room together, and we can solve the problem in that time, and that's how Matt solves the problem. Stephen always foreshadows. Yeah. And he usually does it as a gag, which is good. Well, that's right. which is what we get here. We get we get Matt Smith saying, oh, we're so clever and Clara Burst. Yes, there is a bunch line. But that's fantastic. setting that up as that gag in otherwise. Yeah, the software is the same. The face has changed. Yeah, the face. face has changed in the 1st line and the face has changed. yeah. And then, and then having that payoff at the end, like that's fantastic foreshadowing. It's like that's the way to do foreshadowing. I just find it hard to believe that, you know, in 400 years he hasn't had to upgrade the OS, which has meant that all current operations have had to start again. We're digging down here. Yeah, because he does give that screwdriver away to River Song doesn't he? And he also burns up the screwdriver in 11th hour and new one pops out of the car. It's all in cloud. Chartist backs it off. But, you know, Stephen's writing always pays off and it's always clever. And I think we've been sadly lacking in scripts of that easy sophistication since you left the show, watching this. Just remind me of the fact that even though, you know, I do think it's a little bit obvious in places, he always pays you off as the viewer. Yes, you can't complain. At the end of the day, I can pick faults with it. I can pick a fair number of faults with it. For me, just my personal sort of things, but at the end of the day I still really like it. I still enjoy it. And that's because, and that is, as you say, down to Stephen Morphin. It's always a baseline of quality. You know, some things he will pull off better than other things but there's never anything which lets you down and makes you think well, that was pretty tame. In fact, I think that what it does is exactly what it has to do given that it's a celebration of 50 years and it's being watched by lots of people, is you have a story about what actually constitutes the doctor's heroism. Like, what does it mean to be a doctor? And so, you know, sometimes in the in the 80s, they would put the doctor in a position where he couldn't do anything or there was no good choice or something like that. There should have been another way. Yeah, yeah. And that's always a writing decision. I mean, you're making up the situations, the doctor's in. You don't have to put him in a situation where he has no choice. And I think the point that Moffatt's making is that our doctor just would never have done that. You could never imagine a Doctor Who story. For instance, that depicted the doctor pushing the button and wiping out all of Gallifray, that would just be intolerable, who would want to watch that, because what the doctor has to do is be clever and outwit his enemies and force them to fall into their own traps and all of that sort of thing, that speech, the never cruel and cowardly speech from the human nature novel. And so making the centre. Actually, it's not from the human nature. from the 1976 edition of the making of Doctor Who. Oh, really? You see, this is the nods to the past in this episode are heartwarming and brilliant. you've redecorated. All those bits, you know, the bits you expect, the bits that you get, it's wonderful. But what really hits home for me is that wonderfully directed scene in the barn where it all goes to black. And so you see the doctors against black while they're delivering these lines. And they're quoting Terence Sticks from the making of Doctor Who never cruel or cowardly, always fights evil, is always on the side of good. The wheezing and the groaning. Never give up, never give in. That's all Terence sticks. That's all him explaining the heart of Doctor Who. And so Moffat references that. And that's his true throwback to the original series and what Doctor 2 is about. The only thing I was a bit upset about was that we had the Zygons and not say the Fomasi, because then you would have had that other Terence Sticks classic. The colour of monsters is green. The wheeze and groaning sound speech is fantastic as well, isn't it? Because it's the moment saying that that sound herald's salvation. And now the doctor gets to experience what it's like to hear that sound. And again, Nick Curran is fantastic because Billy is out of focus in the background of that shot and the shot is centred around John Hurt's ear, which is hearing that sound suddenly appear, only this time it's the doctor coming to save himself. Yeah, I mean, it's poetic. It's really great. And while we're just talking about the moment and John Hertz doctor, that entire scene where he 1st goes into the barn and encounters her. It's a long, long scene with just the 2 of them, and it may be the best scene in the entire episode. It's so good. I love that. Why can't it be 2 things? It's not a chair. That's really clever. Yeah, yeah. But in a way, Billy Piper is playing a companion in this. She is playing... Yeah. Like the war doctor's companion. Yeah. Oh, yes. No, absolutely. Oh, that line about being stuck between a girl and a box is pretty gross. Don't worry about me online. It's so effortlessly clever. That's Stephen Moffat just delivering. Yeah. Is that is she wearing thaw trousers? I don't know what she's wearing. She's wearing something that's very distressed anyway. It's his quick thull cosplay. She didn't have scissors. She just used her keys. It's the pair that Barbara took with her at the end of the Darwix found at the back of a wardrobe in the car, in the tanks. The problem is that, and I think Peter touched on this earlier with, like, the weight of expectations, and something that's gonna be the 50th anniversary special is gonna have a weight of expectations on it, which are going to be impossible to be met. And you always end up with, whether it's Doctor Who, whatever it is, something that I often find is enjoyable but slightly unsatisfying. The best episodes and stories of Doctor Who that we remember are not the 35 doctors and this. Funnily enough, for me, the 2 doctors is the best of the multidoctor stories by like years. I agree because it's just a story which has 2 doctors in it. Rather than it being like this existential crisis in the life of the doctor, all of Gallifray or of the universe, whatever it happens to be. It's not a tentpole story. Exactly. And so many of the best stories that we love aren't that, you know they're just a story. Blink is just an episode. And yet it's probably one of the best things that the modern program has produced. Pyramids of Mars is just a story. But it's probably one of the best stories ever produced of the classic series. For episode four, obviously. Scratch pyramids are mad. Let's put in, let's put in scenes of Dame. I knew you were going to say seats. Yeah, because you know, I love it. Green Death, despite the Kramer key. You know what I mean? So, but the point being that it doesn't have to be about the end of the universe for it to be the best thing and everything. The problem with these sorts of stories is that the stakes are too big that I just can't quite get involved in it in the same way. Yeah, I guess for me, though, this is an extra thing that we got to have, you know, we had a normal season. We have a Christmas special. We have this big extra thing celebrating the program in a really public way that involves everyone. So I do think it's appropriate to have Daleks in it. you know, have it be about the doctor and and also to kind of reorient the show to kind of bring the classic series back into the fold. I completely understand how you end up with this. I'm just saying that it's never going to be good enough for me is the problem. is what I'm trying to say. never going to be good enough. I would argue actually of the multi-doctor stories that are celebrations. This is the best. Yeah, I think so too. I'll give it that, given that I think the 3 doctors is pretty bad. Don't get me wrong. Love the 5 doctors. And love the 5 doctors for emotional reasons rather than rational reasons. But in terms of script acting special effects, the meaning of it in the mythology of the show, this is this is actually better than those others. It's actually a thing at the time, though, isn't it? Because this one is very much of its time in terms of how television's made and what things are alike. The 5 doctors is also very much of its time. It's so much more British. It's so much more of a, it's this restrained celebration where we're all going to walk about the place and you know, and that's about all what happened. You know what I mean? Get together for get together for a bit of a party. Get together for a bit of a party. But not too much of a party. you know, not, you know, restrain ourselves. Just some light bondage. Just those little things that Richard Herndle is chewing on. Yes, exactly. It's like them having tea and cake in the console room with the 5 doctors. That's the celebration for the 5 doctors. You what I mean? So I agree with you. with a cup of tea. And in fact, Nick Curran, as we, you know, the whole thing sort of ends and then we just get Nick Curran gives us a shot of someone putting sugar into a cup of tea. I just think it's fantastic. So on the Tom thing at the end, which is just delicious and wonderful and incredible. Goosebumps. But can I say the word but? Yeah, that's good. I regret the line. Yeah, revisiting the old favourites or just the old favourites. I think that is too obvious. Yes, everything though. Yes, I guess I know. But this is the, I had this argument with Brian afterwards and he was on your side. Because basically my point was, you don't need to say that. The fact that he is there. Yes, we all know he's the most beloved doctor of class. Of course he is. only revisiting the ones who are any good. Revisiting the old favourite. Yes, but you don't need to say that. I think basically his presence there is enough. Show don't tell. I just think that it overstepped the mark and I'm not saying this because, you know, Colin got upset about the fact that Tom was in it and he wasn't. Storm down screening. And, you know, that's that's by the bye. But I just think showing that little modicum of restraint would have made it more elegant. I know what you're saying, but I think that line is the modicum of restraining. I think. I think it goes right up to what it could have said, which would have been a bit unsafely and then doesn't. But no, that line's more a strength than who knows? Who knows? Oh, I love it. again, fantastic. No, but that's, that's not the, there's kind of restraint, the lack of restraint that I'm talking about. Oh, no. yeah. I mean, I don't think it's a problem. I think we can overlay what we know about the fact that, you know maybe one or 2 of the other doctors were a bit upset that they didn't get a look in. We're not sure, but maybe we maybe we do know that. But I think you do know that because they said that the following day. Okay. You were at that convention. Yes, we were at that event and Colin sabotaging my efforts at sidestepping in. Not a happy little legend, Mike. Colin was... Yeah, I know, I know. I don't blame him. And it wasn't because he wasn't in it. It was, I think, because of the way it's treated. There's just a lack of a realistic appraisal of what the history of the show has been like, that Tom was the doctor at the time when it was so popular and so important and he is spectacular. Like, he's given... I appreciate all that. It's so good. But the other thing is, this... And so he's the logical one to have in the special. Exactly, of course. I'm not saying that's right. No, no, no, no. But this this week, every living doctor is involved in something. Yes. And the five-ish doctor's reboot isn't a bit of a femmer, a bit of fluff or something that doesn't matter. It's spectacularly gross. It's imperb. It's far better than this. Yeah, it's a it's a world scripted comedy directed by Peter Davidson. Like, you know, like they were involved. No, no, I get what you're saying, and I get why Colin was upset. Davidson on the Sunday said when everyone was saying how brilliant the five-ish doctor's reboot was, and he said, and look, one of the questions was basically, and innocently put, was there anyone that you wanted to be in it, that said no, and he's Davidson said yes, there was one person. So that was Tom. And that was Tom, right? We assume. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's when I goes back to what I'm saying before. It's just unfortunate that the greatest living doctor is that person. It behaves like that. a bit of a dick about it. Still, even despite all of the all of the years of soul searching he's done. Building bridges. Building bridges back inside. It seems like that that's just, it's just, the bridge was about to be rebuilt and it was just demolished in one line. Perhaps he's just aware that the general public holds him in far gracier esteem than any other living doctor. And show more modesty about it. I'm not saying that that is a good thing. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be more open about. I'm just saying that maybe we can't lay that interpretation of that line at his door. Oh, okay, I'm not laying it at his door. certainly not. Sorry, this conversation has gone in a different direction. I'm just talking about the, there is a scriptwriter who is aware of all of this. That scriptwriter, that showrunner is completely aware that all this exists and yet that line, for some reason you couldn't stop himself putting that line in. I can understand that. I don't care about the behind the scenes politics and cares more about the fact that the audience is watching it and going, that's my doctor. That's the old fashion. Yeah, I'm not saying it because of the behind the scenes politics. I'm just using that as an illustration as to why it's just more elegant to not have had this that one line, just that one half line. not even a full line. I mean, as with this entire special, the entire thing is juggling act, there are so many things which Moffat had to bring together and put in and decide not to put in and focus on and not focus on and still tell a coherent story about the doctor and about the series and he actually pulls it off. And I think that is why it's such a success. It may not be a success on every level, and in every scene, and there's certainly things which I don't think land, as I've talked about, but you can't take away from Moth at what he achieved. It's something incredible. Well, Lily, sir, that's all we have time for for now. We'll be back in a couple of days to discuss the real 50th anniversary special, as Peter Davidson, Colin Baker, and Sylvester McCoy joined forces in the 5 ish doctors reboot. What about Paul McGann? He doesn't count. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. Until next time, may you never step in anything unimportant. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. Bye bye. Good night. That was Flightthrough Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Simon Moore, and James Selwood. Theme arrangements by Cameron Lan. This episode, it's No Arc of Infinity, was recorded on the 24th of July 2022 and released on the 23rd of November. If you just picked up your podcatcher to listen to the latest episode of FTE, you'll be delighted to learn that you just missed the 1st of our 2 episodes on the day of the doctor, episode 248 the glue that holds everything together. So have a listen to that now, and we'll see you back here on Sunday. Bye for now. That's the end of the episode. No, I didn't want to end the episode with a soliloquy. Oh, no, I think it's a good speed. That's a good ending. That's a ending. Because, I mean, that is it, isn't it? Yeah, there'll be a tag or whatever. We didn't even talk about listening to us right now. The tag can be that fight over which Osgood is this like... Yes, because we didn't even talk about the very best thing in the episode. What's that? Sarah Kingdom and Mike Yates. We talked about it this morning. What? So thinking of it on the paranoia board in the black archive. There's a photograph of Mike Yates. Oh, with Sarah Kingdom. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But we did talk about that this morning. I want to see more. I want to see like, you know, Vicky and Kquillian. No, but that's the point. The point is it's people who didn't meet together. But how does it work? I got that wrong. I want to see more of that. I want to see, say, Vicky and Chameleon. Chameleon is on that ball. Yeah, comedians on the board. No Vicky. No. no Katarina. I can just imagine the... What about Dodo? Well, Dodo is in the after party. So she does actually get to turn up and participate in the in the week celebration. That was a mess. I finally... That was embarrassing. When are we doing the after party, we went live. We're not even doing that. Was it embarrassing? It was embarrassing. Partly because I think Have you never seen it? No, no. It's absolutely terrible. They assemble. Virtually, every main star from Classic Doc 2, aside from the doctors, they get virtually everybody in. And then they completely waste it. They sit them around tables and every so often throw them and go did you enjoy being in Doctor Who? Yes. And then they throw, you think, oh, my God. And all of a sudden, it's poorly done. They're trying to do what they sort of chat chase now where they're all on irregularly shaped sofas. No one looks like this eating particularly comfortably. And they've all, they've all got their shirts and everything are all kind of blowing out and showing that they're less, they're less nice sides, unflatteringly. It was just, but it was also, yeah, you're right. They didn't ask anyone anything at all. And they're all kind of sitting there a bit shell shocked so that this thing had just been off. It actually felt like a real mark of disrespect to the original show, which the rest of the anniversary week is absolutely not. Yes, absolutely not. Yeah, like they were thrown away. Yeah, it was really terrible. We sat there watching it in a group and about 10 minutes in we're going, oh, dear. Yeah, we didn't... And that's when we turned everyone off. Switch it off. Yeah, so we cheered off. Yes. And cut it. Now. I'm sure there was a fanboy in the audience doing that as well. Well, the, um, in that, in that thing too, who's the blonde hottie um, Peter Davidson. gay boy. from A, A, from Rise of the Cyber Age of Steel. Oh, yeah, Jake. Jake. He was then and he was apparently so happy to have been included as a kind of a pseudo-companion. Because of course he's in like 4 episodes, isn't he? Yeah, he's in four. four, yeah. And so he kind of made the cast and he was so apparently happy to be invited through him and he was one of the most buoyant, the more buoyant people there. In fact, it was the new series people that seem to have the energy in that room to actually talk and do stuff. It was the original series, people who were kind of sitting there a little bit sheltered. Yeah, but to say the energy, I think it's because the original series people deserve respect. They deserve veneration for the fact that they were part of this show and they were sort of brought along and piled together at tables. And so it was a little bit off. Yeah, yeah, like like dragged dragged out of retirement and inverted commas to watch this thing that's much better than when you were in it is how it felt to me. Yeah. I would say that it's made much better than when they were. No, no, no, no. not saying I agree with that, but that's how it felt watching it. It was like, oh, look at this fantastic Doctor Who. What was it like when you were in it? In fact, the only thing that I really did like was when Jackie Lane turned up on the... Yeah, she's on the screen. She does a William Hartman. happy anniversary to Doctor Who fans and everything and it really is absolutely heartwarming because she's one of the stars who at the time was not very prevalent. She didn't go to conventions. No, we didn't see her interviewed and things like that. So to see her acknowledging the anniversary of the show was really great. It would have just been better for them to appear in clips like that. I agree. Right, and have a montage, a 10 minute montage of them all. Wow. Or just litter them through. You're so mean to Jackie Lane normally. I love Jackie Lane. We're mean to dodo. I mean to Simon. like Simon. Do you? All right, I'm gonna stop.