Making My Head Hurt

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast which thinks that while Jane Austen has good technique. She presses a bit hard and pulls your head round a bit roughly. I'm Nathan. I'm James. I'm Peter, and I'm Tom. Well, the doctor is facing imminent certain death as usual, and so now we have to find out where on earth he actually is. And so our 1st step, as always, will be to consult the magician's apprentice. How amazing is it to have Missy back so soon? It's really very clear, isn't it, that Moffat just couldn't leave her alone, like he killed her in the last regular episode, at which point presumably he had last Christmas planned already. So the 2nd he can get her back, he does. And she is just incredibly great. And isn't it great always having a death ray slash might be teleport happening? We'll see next week that Moffatt actually makes that canonical thing that's now impossible to avoid absolutely means that that can always, always, always have happened whenever anyone's shot. It made me think of the Cliffhangers part one of Caves of Andrazani, where we have to use actual guns with bullets in order to ensure that we knew that they'd actually been shown. This isn't a cliffhanger. It's actually happening. Yeah, Missy is amazing. I mean, it's so great to have Michelle Gomez back and she leads the story in the same way. So the doctor is absent, apart from that prologue. He's absent from 10, 12 minutes of the story. And so she's the lead. It's not Clara, it's missy. And certainly not Kate Lethbridge Stewart. It's interesting with that because as you say, the doctor is kind of vanished from the story. There's this whole sort of mystery that he's gone and people are looking for him. Um, and I remember, because he's there in, you get the pre-title. So he's there. You see him in the bit in the... one of the most elegant pre titles ever, but I'm sure we'll talk about that. Yeah. It's interesting because I remember when I used to edit the Doctor Who magazine when this story was on. I did quite near the end of my time on the magazine and we were talking about, you know, it was the start of a new series and how we would, you know, what's the hook, how you promote it. And I was reminded that it was a secret that Davros was going to be in this story. So it completely changed how we were going to, you know, what's the way into it? And if you can't talk about Davros, then it's quite difficult. So, well, what's this, what's this story about? So yeah, we did have to sort of go in on the kind of what the doctors vanished. People are looking for him. where he is, which isn't quite as exciting as talking about Davros, but they were very clear that Davros was to be a surprise, even though he's kind of there in the 1st 2 minutes of the episode. I think he does come as a surprise though, doesn't he? So we open in this sort of battlefield and Moffatt, who is, of course, every bit, the sort of massive fan that we tend to forget that he really is, is recreating the idea of the war in Genesis of the Dialects. And he does that really, really, just brilliantly well by having a biplane, firing laser beams at some soldiers who then turn around and try and hit it with a bow and arrow. Like it absolutely gets that without any dialogue just showing it to us. And so I think probably some of us were suspecting at that point that we were looking at Skara. It's very reminiscent, isn't it? the line Harry Sullivan says about this story, they're going to end up with bows and arrows. So I think it's very very playing specifically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a nice little call back to that. And the whole colour palette of it looks very, you know, you instantly recognise that's the world we're in. And it was always such a great idea that, you know, let's revisit it. Yeah, let's use that iconography again. But the thing that they do, of course, is they update it. So the 2 Khalids are black, which I think is really super interesting given that they were kind of a Nazi analogue in the original story. And they also don't speak with sort of posh English accents, like they just sort of speak normally. And then we see the sort of hand minds thing. Is that hilarious line? Aren't there clam drones somewhere? Like someone comes up and says there are clam drones we have to go and get the clam drones. And then we have the hand mines. And that, again, is a completely different type of technology which you can imagine Davros being involved in because he does sort of genetic stuff. Yeah, the original one predates him. The original one was one of his hands. I mean, I think it's the idea that the war has been going on for goodness knows how long, because he says it's just the war. They don't know anything else, and presumably we don't know how long after Genesis is set, it could be, because Davros has already by that point kind of prolonged his life. I think they really sells the idea that the war has been going on for 1000s and 1000s of years. They had this technology. Yeah. It's handminded technology, which was super advanced and really bizarre and creepy. And they've devolved to the point where they're fighting biplanes with bows and arrows. Yeah. I've been spending a ridiculous amount of time playing Zelda Tears of the Kingdom over the past couple of months, and perhaps the most terrifying thing in that is the gloom spawn, which is hands covered in sort of goo with eyes in their palms that just sort of chase after you really quickly. And I just remember getting this sort of these catch, you know they're frightening, aren't they? Yeah. And it's a brilliant idea. I mean, it is a tremendous idea. And the usual thing, like there's nothing more moffity than that line where there's the little kid and the soldier who's trying to tell him that everything's going to be okay and asks him if he's ever seen a handline and the kid is just looking at the guy's leg and you know immediately that that's what he's looking at. He's seen one right now around the guy's leg. And so the guy gets pulled down into the earth. Doesn't he the moment that he says everything's going to be okay? Yeah, he does a Colin in trial of a time lord. But isn't that sequence amazing? It is beautifully written and paste and filmed. It's the perfect opening to a series, I think. Hetty McDonald's. isn't it? Who's directing and that's the 1st one that she'd done, she's just done Blink before. Yes, the track. Yeah. But yeah. I remember she was a get for Blink because she was a feature film director. And you can tell. Yeah, beautiful thing. absolutely. And the 1st woman to direct a new series episode, I think. New series opener. A new series episode? Like, pushing the first. Yes, pushing the first. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because then we had Alice Charlton and Catherine Moore's head, I think, from series five. But it is absolutely beautifully done and like it gives you that fan glow because as soon as you realise that we're back in Genesisville. you think, okay, what's happening here? What's he riffing on? And so this scene gets played out again and again, and obviously we come back to it at the end of the episode, it's the cliffhanger and we see it several times in the course of the 2 part story. And so it is the central question, isn't it? Of the show is the thing that we hear Tom Baker's dog to say, you know, on Davros's TV a bit later, which is if there was a child who you knew would grow up to be a terrible dictator and destroy 1000000s of lives. Could you then kill that child? Or do you abandon that child? And I think we get the impression from from episode one that that is what he's done. It's deliberate misdirection is now. without preempting too much that happens in part two. It's the fact that at the end of the story, the doctor believes that Missy and Clara are dead. As the audience, I don't think we're really supposed to think that at all. But the doctor believes it. And so we're led to believe that he is going to go back and, well actually, it's not clear, is it? Because obviously this is a, this is, this is a future doctor. we later find out. Well, this is after the end of the story. goes back. I think that what happens is this, and again, we are going to kind of wander into next week's territory a little bit here. But one of the things that Moffatt does with the fact that doctor can time travel is he often doesn't do flashbacks. Instead, the events happen in the doctor's timeline. So I think the doctor has been there first. And I think that when he hears from Davros, the reason that he feels ashamed is that he just left. He said he was going to save the boy and he didn't. He just left when he found out it was Davros. And we know that Davros remembers. You know, that's what Colony Saff says. Davros remembers, and we see Davros has the Sonic screwdriver that the doctor has thrown to Davros, and he himself doesn't have a Sonic screwdriver anymore. And then I think what happens is at the end of the story, he goes back and rescues him and he goes back and does that because the Dalek had mercy on Clara and he wants that mercy to come from somewhere. And so this is a story where there's a kind of utilitarian morality kind of held up and found wanting. And we've said this before, that Doctor Who doesn't really do utilitarianism. It's not good enough to leave Davros to die because it will save a lot of other people because what sort of person are you when you leave Davros to die? Yeah. And again, without wanting to preempt too much of part two. I mean, it's the Trouble Pub 2 part story. The doctor and Davros are at cross purposes through the, you know when they meet at the end of Magician's Apprenticement and throughout part 2 that there's the Davros talks about his weakness and and yes, from Davros's point of view, the weakness is that he went back to rescue him. But the doctor doesn't know that. He doesn't know that. Exactly. Yeah. And so compassion is a weakness. And that is clearly wrong because Davros says it, like it's a moral judgement that Davros makes and Davros is wrong about morality sort of generally. I don't know. Sometimes. And so that's what's central to this story. And one of the things that I think about this story is that that's a really, really good central concede. It gives us a brilliant teaser and a great cliffhanger and a great ending, but the rest of the story seems to be spinning its wheels a little bit. I mean, I have a couple of things to say about that. One is that it's good that the doctor got the right Davros because Davros might just be a popular name around the car. That might have been Davros Jones that he was angsty about. Who knows? But yes, I think I'm very entertained by this episode and it does have that brilliant opener and I really like what it's talking about because it is saying something. So there's all these good things, which are really positive, but it is a series of extended set pieces, which don't quite mesh together. Yeah. I mean, I kind of want Doctor Who to not do a story every time. Like to not go and solve a space problem or an aliens problem or something like that. So this is a little bit more thoughtful. This is kind of reestablishing the doctor after we had a sort of extended critique of his character last season. This is our sort of seeing where we are in one sense. And it just gives us time to hang out with Missy and obviously that's a great thing. But, you know, I think we said the same thing about a good man goes to war. I like a good man goes to war quite a lot, but you kind of feel like that scene at the beginning where the doctor isn't seen and he's going to collect various people. You know, this is very similar to that, isn't it? And it does seem like the sort of thing that might not have survived a more rigourous edit. Yeah, I mean, sometimes you get some and very entertaining, a lot of nothingness. I mean, even Missy says with that stuff with the plane. She said, I couldn't have done anything with them anyway. So you realise, oh, that was all pointless then. That was just, it was just showboating. It's just... It's a great image. But I have to say that there's half a dozen really great set piece ideas in this episode and you'd be hard pressed to find maybe one of them fuelling a Chris Tubin episode. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the thing. Sand says that we know that Bob Holmes could write Doctor Who in his sleep because he did several times. Here, this is as close to kind of failure mode as Moffat gets, and it's really clever and entertaining, and there's a lot happening among the characters and stuff. So, like on one level, I like the idea that we're trying something different from just a straightforward Doctor Who story, but it is a little bit lacking in incident, I think. And it kind of shows you the workings of the series as well. This episode has a lot to do with reintroducing Missy, bringing Clara back in. The doctor's got this moral choice that he's got to face. It's got to reintroduce the doctor after last Christmas and that kind of resolution after series 8 arc. And so it does that. It kind of does it sequentially, but it feels like set pieces because it gives them all something brilliant to do. And so with Missy's reintroduction, you get her at unit with the Missy Yusufine, which is like exactly what you want. And then it gives her and Clara that extended scene in the square which, as we said, is a bit of vamping, but is really great and actually takes you back to those heady days of like the doctor and Joe Grant. Thank you, Miss Grant. We'll let you know, all of that because that relationship is important, the Missy Clara relationship and it powers the episode. And that set piece is really great. And it does, the thing, you know, Moffat has said before, that the trouble with the master is that they risk getting cuddly, because the master's threat is to be more interesting than the doctor, to be the star of the program, essentially, he threatens to depose the doctor as the main character of the program. And here you can see her doing it, she is so interesting, so much fun, absolutely able to hold those scenes and to be the sort of central focus of that part of the episode. But he does have her kill a bunch of people, which I just think is absolutely superb and have not turned good. And she doesn't do it in an off she does do it in an offhand way but she doesn't do it in a glib way. She rubs it in. I can see the wedding ring on his finger and I think that he's got kids and she's been properly evil about it. Yeah, she's really, really terrific. What was it? Like, some baby, baby. Yeah, like baby spew. Oh, baby, baby. I also just thinking she's got some great lines, but the one that really sticks to my memory is, oh, Davros is your greatest enemy now, is he? Hang on. Did you say, old claw his eye out? That whole scene, the interplay between them in that whole scene where they arrive at the castle in the 12th century. Yeah, just fabulous. Like, oh, what you doing, man? She goes very Scottish suddenly, doesn't it? There's this suggestion that somehow this is because of Capaldi's Scottishness as well. You've got these 2 is she sort of mimicking him deliberately or is it? She decides to keep the accent in deep breath and she's been watching the episode deep breath. And so when the half-face man turns up at the end, she didn't see the doctor push him out of the restaurant because that wasn't in the episode. But she says, what do you think of the accent? I'm thinking of keeping it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she sometimes does a sort of comedy American, like kind of airhead American girl accent as well, which is just absolutely superb given what she's really like. And I guess to this version of the of the master is the one who is most credibly friends with the doctor. It's a thing that Stephen Moffatt pushes in the episode, is that these 2 people used to be friends. It was already present, wasn't it, in the RTD era, and it was sort of implied. It wasn't even really strongly implied, was it in the classic series? I think the pert we Delgado stuff, there is the sense that there's something there. Yeah, you know, um, I mean, less so with Anthony Ainley in the 80s I think, but even then... That was the story of Anthony Ainley's master, less so. Yeah, yeah. But there is that kind of, there's that bit at the end of Planet of Fire, isn't there? wouldn't you have mercy even on your own? And there's that speculation that there's, you know, the milkman president's wife. Yeah, they definitely have a history and although in the 5 doctors the the 1st doctor, the Richard Herndle doctor doesn't even seem to quite recognise the master. When did this happen? I mean, I really like that element of Missy's version of the master in that you get the impression that she would stop killing people and turn to good, which spoilers, maybe she will, if only the doctor would actually be her friend and see her as a friend. And that's the whole bit with the previous story, wasn't it? Dark water, deaf in heaven. Yeah, that she just wants recognition. And I think you've got that. If there's one thing because some of the master's plans over the years have been so utterly what even why were you even doing that? And I think if you put it through the prism of the master wants the doctor's approval somehow and wants the recognition that I've been really clever, that sort of, you know, kind of makes some of it just feels slightly, slightly more credible, maybe. Doesn't she suggest that that's her way of flirting? Like, doesn't she say that's our flirting, trying to kill one another, um, or our texting, possibly? I can't remember, but she does reinterpret what they've been doing for all of these years as kind of play in a way. And so she's the one who gets the confession dial, not Clara. And I have to confess, I think I said this. Have you got a dial? No. I have to confess. I didn't even realise what I was doing then. That a few episodes ago, I said that series 9 is the series of Doctor Who that I know the least well, that I've seen the least the least frequently, and I know obviously that the confession dial will come back and play a massive role towards the end of the series. But the doctor doesn't think he's going to die, does he, for the whole series? For once, no. No. Well, because that's the other thing. tenant going on and on in a very tedious way about how he's about to die. And then we had Matt Smith in a somewhat less tedious way, but still about to die. More than once because there was the whole Lake Silencio thing. Yeah, the whole of series. And then there's trends law. Oh, yeah. So you've got both of those. Can we just pause once more to appreciate the elegance of the word trendsolore? Oh, yeah. It's brilliant. Perfect, perfect. The same metre as Gallifrey. It's not a space name. It's a brilliant word and a superb edition. Probably. Like most of the location work on this episode. Yeah, the doctor's last resting place on Rand's Corps Av. So it is in Spain, isn't it? One of your hot countries that... Well, it's Tenerife. Okay, all right. Yeah, yeah. And there's a fair amount. We've done Spain before in town called Mercy. Yeah, Asylum of the Daleks. And Killer Moon. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah Mazarote. Yeah. And so we're in Spain for that that superb sequence. sort of under the shadow of the plane in the in the square. I didn't see any burnt out cinders. So then, of course, we're off to see the doctor and there were a series of maybe 3 short clips. Does anyone remember that? We watched them. Tom and I watch too. So what do they do? They explain who Bors is. Well, the 1st one is actually a deleted scene. It's not presented as such, but it was in the script for the magician's apprentice. Okay. And that's the whole bit with, is it Oheila, the, uh, Oheila, the sister, uh, on Carna. And I guess it would have come at some point after Colony staff has been to visit the sisterhood. And there's a whole scene where the doctor and a healer are talking about whether he's going to go and visit Davros and there's the whole sort of a sort of moral conjury and... It's quite sort of interrogates the quandary. And it is a very, very good scene, but I think it was probably good that it was excised because it slows things down at the wrong moment. And I think what we end up with still keeps the doctor off stage a little bit. So he has been there, like there's that thing where Oheila says, um the doctor's behind you, always behind you, standing right behind you in one step ahead. And I think Saf goes and we see that the doctor's there. But he's in shadow. his, you know, so his physical appearance is kind of downplayed a little bit and we see very little of him and that's kind of the 1st that we see of him in that colony staff thing. I think, like the colony staff thing is less fun and interesting than the comparable scene in Good Man Goes to War, where we introduce all of those characters who are going to come and form the posse, I think. But there's a brilliant moment where they're talking about where is the doctor? You know, I think Kate and the unit woman, where is the doctor? And then we just cut and it says Essex down the bottom of the screen. And the doctor's not even in it. It's just this sort of baying crowd with Essex for just like a few seconds and then we come back to sort of talking about where the doctor is and then eventually we sort of end up in that area. Well, there's the sequence, isn't there? He goes to see the sister of Khan, and he goes to the shadow proclamation as well, which I'd kind of forgotten that you get the same, same woman. That buffy head actress. Yeah, yeah. But I like to imagine that, you know, he's gone to like 1000s of places. He sort of turns up and, you know, are some pteroreptils. Have you seen the doctor? Goes and visits his cousins, the Mara. Yeah, I mean, how many people has he gone round to ask? And there's this strange suggestion as well? Because when they eventually do catch up with him, he finds him there. The Daleks have clearly already infiltrated boars and others there. So do the Daleks already know that the doctor's there and they procure the TARDIS and all of that? Or are they working independently of colony staff and Davros? Yeah, feels like Davros and the Daleks aren't talking to each other. Oh, I got the impression that somehow the technology would come with stuff. I just think that's a gap in the plot. As in, yeah, he's there and he is linked with our brother. like I in Bordswell, yeah. Well, you know, like, because that's a whole, it's a Nanite thing isn't it? Like, isn't that established? Oh, something. Yeah. So it's only at the point South arrives that he's able... Okay, that makes sense. So it could do. You're right, though. not spelled out. Ted Cannon. He is surprisingly easy to find. It is kind of that, you know, show all the dots on the map now delete all of the ones except for the one where he is now and bang he's there. And colony stuff does turn up on Khan while the doctor is there. So I guess that he hits Earth. Maybe... he was there at the shadow proclamation as well. Right behind you. He's just been following her around listening to everything he says right behind you in one step behind. And so he digs a well or something. There's another one where he's digging a well. It goes on for a fair while, that... It's called the doctor's meditation, is it called? And I think that's quite long and it's slightly more comic, isn't it? Because it's got the whole digging for water in about 20 different places. Yeah, it's a bit of fun, but it's not really essential for the story. It was a day of shooting, you know. Yeah. And that wasn't a deleted scene, though. No, that was done as a deliberate for the website, I guess. Or was it on the DVD? It was first, I think, was 1st released with the film showings in 3D of the season finale from last season. Oh, okay. And then released on the website. So it was available internationally before it was available. I think a lot of these things were done, you know, basically, as a little trick of funding, Stephen would say to me, well, we get these, you know, sometimes blue, you know, DVD Blu-ray, deleted scenes, and we're, you know, we promised them an exclusive and that. But basically, it was to get some extra money, which they could spend on the actual episodes, you know, because if you're using the same actors and same sets and everything else, essentially it's a clever way of increasing your budget for the actual episode. Yeah, horse follows card. And actually, if you look at those scenes with Colony South, who does look great, but maybe not as great as I hoped he would look from the concept. Once you realise, as Tom told me, that he's actually travelling around on a segue underneath that big cloak, you can't unsee it. Every time he swishes into shot, you're like, he's on a segue. He makes some comment about a bunch of snakes in a dress at some point, like the doctor's dismissive of him and says that he's wearing a dress, which I think is pretty great. The rest of snakes in a dress. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a pretty great idea It's, it is very kind of weird though. You know, when the doctor meets Stavros, Davros doesn't even understand the question, what planet are we on? You know, at the very beginning, what planet are we? He doesn't even understand the question. And of course, where the doctor originally needs to have Ross ingenesis of the Daleks. He thinks there's no inhabited planets. And now having Davros, obviously having gone through the time war and stuff like that, embedded in this sort of weird, cheesy Moffattish space science fiction thing with Maldivarium and all of that. sort of stuff. It seems weird and incongruous that Davros has this sort of strange sidekick who is trying to, like, you know, that's fun, but it is slightly on, I think. I said Nider had let himself go. Yes, that's right. At least the sleight of hand, which is in the next episode of the fact that colony stuff is actually integrated into Davros's technology. Yeah. Like the snakes are part of his life support system. Yeah. And there's, there are like this banding on the cables. that's clearly visible until you see that it's that there's snakes, the next episode, you don't consciously realise it. Yeah, yeah. The interesting thing about the sort of early Danros appearances is there isn't really a sort of gap for things in between, it's a Genesis follows, it's followed by destiny, and that's pretty much followed by resurrection. Yeah, it has to be, does it? So what point, I mean, obviously the doctor tells Davros about, you know, future Dalek events in Genesis, but there's a sort of a point where he's never been off Scaro until Resurrection of the Daleks. Well, I mean, yeah, that's right. And then he's in suspended animation in Resurrection of the Daleks as well. That's the idea. So he becomes quite sort of, you know, aware of the rest of the universe quite suddenly, really. You know, it's, from Davril's point of view, given that Destiny you know, it might be a long time later, but this is all sort of in the period of a few days, isn't it? his perspective. Like a week ago, he didn't believe there was life on other planets. No. So what happens to him is what happens to the Daleks, isn't it? You know, the Daleks are just on this one planet stuck in their city. And then David Whittaker realises they're the doctor's mythic enemy and turns them into that, I think, you know, their space opera antagonists in the in the Terry Nation stories in the Heartnel era, but then they become this sort of mythic evil force. And I think the same thing happens to Davros as well. And it probably doesn't happen in the classic series so much just because, I mean, he's sort of getting there, isn't he, towards the end of revel? Well, yeah, and and remembrance, you know, where he's sort of ranting Hitler figure on the black and white tally sort of thing. But I think it really, really properly happens in David Tennant's era where he becomes the antagonist in the time war and then has all this sort of weird mythology around him that we never quite get. Yeah, well, remembrance, of course, Davros is, you know, he's very aware of time lord technology. I mean, that's all sort of preempting the time war kind of stuff but there is that suggestion that that's sort of on the cusp of the time war starting to happen, isn't it? And that is one of the things that I like about this episode. It's not Davros as the ranting head of an army. It reduced it down to, as it was in Genesis, Davros and the doctor in a room together facing each other. And I think that Moffat may have been quoted in interviews as saying that he was kind of hoping to recapture that, and he certainly has a little bit where he plays the audio, you know. I thought you might just miss our conversations. Yes. You get you get all of the little clips. I think every previous Davros story is represented, isn't it? You get a bit of Colin and Sylvester and David Tenner as well. Yeah, you know, Stephen asked Russell to write this to Powder. Oh, really? Yes. And he said, no. He's literally... He never wanted to come back. Well, Stephen asked Russell a lot of times to come back. Did he? Russell was doing other stuff and didn't want to know. He did a bit of distance. Yeah, well, it was still, I suppose, what, 5 years on? Yeah, yeah. But I also have a question about, does this change retrospectively what we see in Genesis of the Dalis, because Davros has already met the doctor. If he remembers, if he remembers all of this, he's seen the DARDIS he's got the Sonic screwdriver, presumably he's kept, he's got it somewhere there in Genesis. keeping it. At what point does Davros think that's the same guy, or does he? Does he not realise until later? No, I think he does, doesn't he? I think he does I think the implication, though, is... And maybe it's some Thor dialogue or maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I thought there was an implication that he had remembered, as in, it was deep, deep, deep in his memory, his 1000s and 1000s of years old at this point, possibly 1000000s. Yeah, ancient, ancient. And this traumatic memory from his childhood has popped back up. Has resurfaced. Yes. Or wasn't there in the 1st place. Yeah, like this, this whole thing that Moffatt loves to do with when, when does, has it changed time, you mean? somehow gone back and it's... and even in an episode. At the beginning of the episode and the end of the episode, like other scenes you're seeing often repeated. The same scene. The way that the doctor is identified often through his regenerations is hair of an idiot by the TARDIS. Oh, by the TARDIS isn't present in Genesis of the Daleks. No, that's true. Yeah, that is true. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't see either Tartisan destiny. Resurrection. There's a whole thing about, you know, sending Daleks to capture the Tardis. I'm not sure whether Davros is involved. Yeah, at what point does that? In Revelation, the TARDIS is off distant. I mean, it does hold if we want to go into this. Yeah, we want to. Genesis of the Daleks changes history, doesn't it? But it obviously doesn't change. Well, it does. It changes history in a way. And so that's on the table as a thing. I mean, is it possible that we can imagine? I think, look, I think we're just not supposed to think about it too hard. Do you know what I mean? If you want to head Canada, you can go to the effort, but I do think that like there is something audacious and fun and interesting about Stephen Moffat inserting the Dollar Street into Davros's childhood. That's really great. And to get the doctor to reenact the very thing that Tom was talking to him about in his 1st story, like to make that suddenly about him about Davros himself. So, I don't know, maybe maybe Capaldi's 1st trip back to the war on Scaro changes history or perhaps. Because also if the doctor thinks during most of this story that he abandoned Davros there, he must assume that Davros survived anyway. Some other way. Unless it was Davros Jones, I'm just saying. It wasn't the same one, yeah. I mean, is that why he thinks he's dying? You know, like he's going back here. He knows it's a trap. So he's going back there with no hope as we learn next episode. He thinks he's going to die because Davros remembers now what the doctor did to him as a child and he's going back there ashamed of what he did, ashamed of leaving him behind. So he's gone back there just to pay the price for his own sort of cruelty. And given that he's been interrogating, if he's a good man or not you know, to have him then do this. and and feel ashamed of it and both missy and and Clara identify that he's ashamed. Is that it? He's just going back to pay the price. Moffat's done this a couple of times. He likes to delve into the psyche of characters by going back to the childhood. So we did it, obviously, with the doctor in listen. He did it with Kazran Sardic in a Christmas carol. And again, pulling that same trick where he doesn't do it by having a flashback, he does it by having the doctor going back into his childhood so that it's actually happening in real-time kind of chronological order as far as the story's concerned. I think the only place he cheats is in the is in the cliffhanger to this episode where we're actually seeing the doctor go back for a 2nd time, which he doesn't do until the end. It is misdirection. Yes, they had to give you a kind of WTF moment. Well, and it's also to play out that event in several different ways throughout the course of the two-part story because if it's okay to leave Davros behind, to get killed by the hand mines because there's only a one in a 1000 chance of surviving. If that's okay. And the doctor's done it, he clearly doesn't think it's okay, but isn't it okay? Like if you prevent the Daleks from happening from a utilitarian standpoint? It's not a bad thing to do. But isn't it morally equivalent to going back and just shooting Davros in the face? You know, like, it's it's, well, it's passive, isn't it? Because interestingly, if the doctor hadn't turned up on Scar, he doesn't even know what planet he's on, then Davros would still have been in that position and nobody would have rescued him. So clearly the Daleks were still created anyway. Oh, I don't know. Does that mean, has the doctor changed history? Well, yeah, who rescued Davros originally if history's been changed. The doctor always rescued Deveros. He always did. Yeah, but then, oh, yeah. doctor is essentially responsible for everything. So if the doctor hadn't, you know, lived to become Peter Capaldi which we already know is past his regeneration cycle, then he would never have lived around to have rescued Davros and this is making my head hurt. Well, yeah. So if Baby Davrok gets trapped by hand minds. I mean, the real reason he survives is because the doctor goes back and saves him at the end of the witches familiar. But he thinks at this point that Davros has been saved somehow, and he's right. He just doesn't know that it's by him. There's a few examples of this sort of thing, aren't there? It's like, you know, if you if you take that view of time travel is time being changed or did it always happen and it's like that with the, say, the day of the doctor and the moment and the John Hurt, did he always do that? Or is it only because, you know, and it's sort of left ambiguous you can kind of take it whichever way? Does it really matter? I don't know. I think Siri 6. It definitely has the doctor being shot dead on Lake Silencio, and then he goes back at the very end. And gets the idea of how to fix it. Yeah, yeah. And it's almost an afterthought, which is part of the fun of that finale where he goes, oh, yes, and we discover that. He actually physically ducks back into the room. ducks back into the room and gets the tesselator to go and do it for him. And so the way he can change time without there being a problem without it breaking time the way that river broke time is by doing it undetectably. We have that idea of fixed points we get, we hear, what about? I don't mean they mention fixed points in this Davros story, but there is the idea that as long as things appear to be as they are. Unfold generally as they're supposed to. So everything that we saw on Lake Salencio is, it happened. It just wasn't what we thought we were seeing. Or or it happened and then he changed it so in such a way that it's undetectable from the outside. Like, we just can't tell. And the doctor really is there on Lake Salencio, just as he was originally. He's just tiny in his own arm. But then, you know, Stephen Moffat plays with this stuff more than any other writer has done. And it's intriguing, but it's also, of course, it's going to do your head in because it's... Yeah, the idea. that he's turning over in his head as he goes to sleep. Where's a good Blinovic limitation effect when you need it? We get it a lot more in the next story. He does a whole narration, doesn't he, about where did I get the idea from when it becomes a closed loop? Yeah. Yes, a friend of the podcast, Anson, who is a friend of Brendan's mentions the idea that the reason the doctor decides to go back at the end of, which is familiar, is because he's aware that there's a kind of grandfather paradox. He has to have gone back to save him. And if he didn't, then time breaks in some way. But I actually think at that point, because the reason he goes back is because Clara has shown what has asked for mercy. about the word mercy being in the in the vocabulary. But of course, we do have a, we're getting into part 2 territory. Yeah, we are. It's the danger of... This more than anything else, I think. Because Moffatt very frequently tries to make the 2 parts quite distinct. Here, they are one story in 2 different phases, but they are very very closely. Do you think they chose mercy because they couldn't use pity? Yeah, well, there's already... Moffat's just been watching Genesis. It's powered off an entire two-parter in his head. Stephen had had a Dalek saying mercy. River Song makes a darling, same mercy in the Big Bang. Yes. So the word is that the doctor isn't present to hear that. to be fair. So he doesn't know how the word mercy gets into the Daleks vocabulary. But now we know. Yeah, so I don't think that's a continuity error, but we have heard of Dalek say mercy before. It may be why that word is chosen because we know that the word pity isn't in the Dalek vocabulary bank because Davros appeals to it in order to not get shot dead at the end of Genesis of the Daleks. The very, very similar word mercy is somehow in the Daleks vocabulary, in the Big Bang, and is the show no. No, but is this how it gets there? Is Moffat explaining how that word is available for the Dalek to use when it's being confronted by River Song? I mean, I wouldn't put it past him. Or it might just be he's forgotten. It may well just be that as well. Or it might be. Hes forgotten, but someone mentioned that. He says, yes, that's what I was doing. That's very him, yeah. So, the other element here that I think is really interesting is the fact that we go back to the version of Scaro from the original Daleks. We've said before, that in a way, Moffatt isn't super interested in the Daleks themselves, and we never have just a sort of straightforward Dalek story in the Moffatt era with perhaps the exception of Victory of the Daleks. So here he's just using, because it's a story about ideas like the doctor, the master davros, the Daleks, he takes them back to the most kind of iconic version. And that's a great moment, isn't it? When the, like, Missy discovers that the spaceship is, yeah, and the horror of they've brought it back and then we, the planet appears and the, the, yeah, the city from, you know, the dead planet, basically. Yeah, yeah. visually they base that on the dialect comic strips from the 60s. But it really seems to me like a recreation of that model. You know, is it a forced perspective model or something that they're watching from the cliff? Yeah, yeah, they're watching from the cliff looks the same. Like the art director was very clearly told. look at that Yeah yeah. The comic strip. It is a shame in some ways that that didn't extend to the interiors because I think that big room that the Daleks are in is basically just a big room. Whereas it does extend to the interiors because the doorways... Yeah, it does get doors. It's coming down on the angles. But that one big control room. I just wanted to be the control room from the Dalek with the Rell counter and all that kind of stuff. What it does have is the dramatically sloped Ken Adam roof, like the Ken Adam ceiling and thing. So it is a sort of a piece. But those doors which come down in a sort of arc and they kind of make the same noise? They kind of... Well, of course, the sound effect that we do get, apart from the normal Dalek heartbeat, which always turns up, is the destiny of the Dalek's alarm. So when the Missy and Clara are in the, well, they're not in a spacecraft, but they're actually in a building, aren't they? But it sets the alarm off. It is absolutely that. It's that really high pitched drink? so great. So good. So good. I was going to ask what you guys all think about having all the different sort of Dalek models, the different types of Dalek together because we don't generally see that. You get all the bronze ones or in other stories in Death to the Daleks, they're all silver. We get different colours for commander Daleks and that sort of thing, but generally, this is really unusual to sort of see they're all, like, they're all there together. So I think that what ends up happening is that we've got the new paradigm dialects in Victory of the Dialects and that kind of stuffs things up a bit. And so when they next come back in asylum of the dialects, we're actually also promised that every dialect ever will appear in that. And so down on the asylum planet, we get to see lots of different types of Daleks like we do this time here. I think, again, because he's trying to represent the Daleks as an icon, we have, and we see very early on, don't we? Like the Dalek with the blue bumps and stuff from the original Daleks, like, so we're kind of taking it back. And I think notably absent are any paradigm daleks from that shot are any in there in that control room? don't think there are. Yes, in the in the asylum, of course, plot wise, it sort of makes sense that they're all old Daleks that have been... So yeah, except though, that in a way that when Russell updates the Daleks, it's possible that we could imagine that they were always kind of meant to look like that. This is what the Daleks look like and now we can afford to realise it and we don't ever see those past Daleks. Moffat doesn't do that sort of stuff, which is why, you know, for instance, he'll bring old cybermen back and things like that. Here. It's, you know, the Daleks are a type of iconography. They have... It's an interesting sci-fi thing, isn't it? Were the Klingons in Star Trek always supposed to look like that or were they? You know, it's like that. Is it just the limitations of 60s telly? It's the way they update the Borg, say, for 1st contact where they do have the same silhouette and look the same, but it's an entirely superior makeup job as opposed to just whacking on some white makeup. Well, I mean, you know, the Klingons thing is something that they just make a joke about, remember, in Deep Space Nine. Trouble tribulation? Yeah, they have warfare to say we don't talk about that. And they try and repair it in enterprise and now, of course Strangely Worlds has completely thrown that out the window as well. It's funnier when it's a joke, I think, because actually, we all know what the real world is. Yeah, that's right. And so I think Moffat does that because, like in some sense, I think the paradigm Daleks put him in a sort of weird position. Like if he's just going to do Daleks, what's he going to do? Is he going to do paradigm dialects? Well, there's one of them left or something? Well, I know he said, because this is the 1st time in quite a while we've had a story on Scaro. And so, you know, he wanted to sort of portray them like a race. So they're all different. So if you always just have all bronze Daleks, all paradise. There is that kind of idea that they're all sort of identical and they are kind of almost sort of clone type things, you know, like soft robots kind of haven't really been. But yes, but if you have them together, you know, that actually does make them feel more like a race, there are differences. Also, in production terms. He'd been disappointed with the with how he'd been able to use all of those Daleks in the previous story. Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, there's a story about that because I think they were shooting in 2 different studios at the time they were doing some stuff at upper boat and some stuff down by the other rope lock. And for some of the key scenes, because they mention Daleks on Spiradon and all that. But they were in the wrong studio for that. So that's why it was a cock up, basically, but the Daleks that they needed for some of those scenes weren't in the right place at the right time. And it would have just cost, you know, it just been too disruptive to have, um, to have transported them. So it was a shame you didn't you don't really get to see them in the moments where you want to see them. And so you get the special weapons dialect, too, which we had sort of been promised in asylum. Does it appear in the background somewhere, but we get it a little bit more foregrounded here, which is pretty great. Having them all together in those scenes, even though obviously they've been updated immaculately for the 21st century, just makes me appreciate the style and the elegance of those original 60s dialects. Silver and the blue balls. It's just that dalek is incredible. I mean, I think Russell's update is very good, but what it actually maintains is the profile. The silhouette. Yeah, yeah, the silhouette is right. But, you know, if you think about the Daleks as an alien race, then having different versions of them coexisting on the same planet works and stuff. But if you think of the Daleks as a thing that's appeared on your telly for the last 50 years, that's an even more urgent reason, I think, to have lots of different versions of them throughout that. Of course both, yeah. It's a real, it's an interesting thing, and I don't know whether as we're all Doctor Who fans, and we kind of, you know, notice Daleks looking different, and sometimes very different, but are they that different, really? There was the whole idea about, do the Daleks look too ridiculous for a 2005 audience anyway? You know, actually, clearly it worked. But if you put in the magician's apprentice, you know, a 60s Dalek on screen, are people really going to go? That one looks, looks wrong or looks, I think we overthink this a little bit. Yeah, they just all look like Daleks, as Trini and or Susanna would say, design classic. I mean, there's so much effort in that Dalek story, the Shaman Dalek story. So much effort goes towards making them not ridiculous, like to make them credible, not just in the look, but also in the way they behave, in the script sort of generally, I think. And you know, I think this story is doing that to Davros as well because Davros has been oversaturated with the audience to such an extent that he's just become a ranting dictator in a Dalek chair. And what this does is bring him back to being a character who sits opposite the doctor and interacts as a character rather than as Davros, who the audience knows. It's funny, isn't it, too? Because, you know, Missy has every right, as she points out, to be regarded as the doctor's arch nemesis, but she's kind of just sort of prancing about and being hilarious and stuff and not actually doing that. Yeah, she doesn't have a plan in this tour. She's just along for the ride. Yeah, yeah. They are the best master appearances when he or she is just along for the ride. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's also a story where the daleks get talked about quite a bit before they turn up. I mean, of course, the Daleks are obviously, you can't do the story without the Daleks, but it's, you know, easier to dialect story. They don't turn up until 5 minutes from the end pretty much. But throughout the story. Obviously, the whole point is, you know, that this is this is the guy who created this, you know, absolutely destructive force that's had such an effect on the universe. It's actually pretty great. You know, the original run of the new series with Russell introduces all the kind of major antagonists in order, doesn't it? The Daleks, the cybermen, the master Davros. And don't forget the Santarians, obviously. That's where Alan series fell. And the macra. It does two. That's out of order. But for the people who are just watching the new series. The Daleks are around quite a bit before Davros actually arrives. There's that nice little illusion to him in to Van Staten in Dalek isn't it? You know, that Christopher Ecklson's doctor doesn't name him, but we know who he's talking about. Yeah, I think all of that, that is really good. And so we've reestablished after, you know, the mid 70s that the Daleks work without Davrost. But I mean, this is Davros. This is a Davro story much, much more than it's a dalek story. And that's who the writer is interested in, I think. I actually think that the scenes where Missy and Clara and then the TARDIS are all sort of destroyed one by one and making Capoldi act that is a bit of a stretch. We know, do you know what I mean? We know that it's not real. Well, we know that we're in towards the end of episode one of a 13 part or 12 part series, the doctor doesn't know where he is in the season. Or what's going on, does he? I mean, he believes it. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I mean, he doesn't have. I mean, maybe he maybe he should think that, you know, Missy would be smarter that she's figured something out. Clara, you know, could potentially just, you know, Clara isn't going to have had some clever plan to have got around this, but Missy, you know, we literally saw in the last story that she sort of zapped and is still around. Yes, yeah. And it's the same trick. Well, in fact, the next episode opens with a sort of extended thing on how that's the trick, which is pretty brilliant and leaves it open to kind of happen again all the time if it needs to. Yeah, I just kind of think, you know, in the bit in Romeo and Juliet, where Juliet dies, she takes the poison and her family thinks she's dead. Shakespeare doesn't attempt to kind of make them credibly sad about it. He does a comic scene where they're all kind of massive rat bags about it and being very silly because the audience knows that she's not dead because they've hurt the plot. And so we can't do proper grief, because that would kind of spoil the ending where we get sort of proper grief. sort of here to happen. I just think that Capaldi struggles to sell the Clara and Missy are really dead because we just know that they're not, and Capaldi knows they're not, and it really, it's only the doctor that's in the dark. Oh, we agree. It's the script. That's it. I would agree. It's chafing against that Doctor Who thing. We're willing to go along with the cliffhanger where the doctor or the companion is in danger because there's no big buildup from the other characters around it. Whereas when you actually make that the focal and give the doctor credible grief about it, you start to think, well, clearly it hasn't happened. why are we watching this? And I know that that's the point of driving him to the point where he is in the story. But as an audience member and your relationship to cliffhangers and what happens with them, it's a little, yeah. And so the cliffhanger is that we think that his grief has caused him to go back and actually shoot Baby Davros at... Yeah. He should have been played by Rory Jennings. He still looked young enough. Is that kid been in other things or do I just know him because I've watched this particular episode quite a lot? No? I don't know him from anything else. Should I Google? My name is Davros. Davros. I think he's pretty good. I don't think Todd has anything to complain about with this shot. And yet he will. Well, this now, we're obstacle roller skating in a quarry, so that's all the time we have for this week. We'll be back next week for an inevitably revolting revolution in the Witches familiar. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find all our social media links, as well as links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, Jody IntoTera, Maximum Power, and Untitled Star Trek project. Until next time, enjoy your flight, and try not to get too excited by the artificial gravity. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. Good night. Good night. That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, James Selwood, and Tom Spielsbury. Name arrangement by Cameron Lam. This episode, Making My Head Hurt, was recorded on the 30th of July, 2023, and released on the 17th of September. If Snogging Jane Austen isn't to your taste, and why would it be? Other regency novelists are also available? Things that I've heard about Sir Walter Scott would make your toes curl. Yeah what do you think? I think that's fine. And also, I want to get some brunch before Tom at the airport. Yeah, does anyone want to say anything that I can drop back in or? Because we talked about a few things you're saying mentioned, but I think you probably mentioned most of them now. Yeah, that was just conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I liked it though. It was nice to come back to it and it was not one that I've probably seen since it went out and yeah, he's got a few flaws, but I think it was it was pretty entertaining. You know, it's funny. I've tried to watch series 9 a few times because as I've said, it's the one I know the least well. And I've usually watched the Magician's Apprentice and then not gone on. And not because of the quality of it because I'm kind of terrible at kind of just sticking to something like that. So this is the one that I've seen a bunch of times. This, and obviously I've gone back and seen heaven sent a bunch of times. Is it an odd story to start a season with? Do you think? Yeah, a little bit, but does it Yeah, does it feel like it should be the big 1st 2 parter at sort of episodes 4 and five? So, no, but Moffatt never does only once. Only once, I think, does Moffat? Oh, the 11th hour is different. It doesn't count because it's a new doctor. But it's only Bells of St. John where he does an RTD style season opener, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I have a theory that, um, you know, they got he, this idea of having, we're going to, they're all going to be 2 partters and it's not quite because sleep no more is definitely on its own but it's sort of... 2 partters. Some are definite, 2 parters, some are a bit more linked. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I think perhaps the season would be structured better if you started with the girl who died because you need, it's, it's, um introduces a shilder who is going to be there for a week. It odd that she only gets introduced halfway through the season. I think it makes more sense to introduce her in episode one. And then at the midpoint of the season, you do the woman who lived. Because then you really get the idea that... That it's been a long time. Yeah, yeah. And so the Dalek two-parter. The Davro's two-parter, I think, should be, you know, sort of in 3 and 4 or something or, you know, or if you, I suppose you couldn't be there because you need another, because they're all 2 parters. But yeah, you could you could maybe have the... And then 4 and 5 being the Davros story. And then the woman who lived. Because I think, I know this isn't particularly a point about the Davros story per se, but you then would have the idea that, oh, my God, I'd forgotten all about a shilder. Yeah, um, you know, and then, I mean, I think that would just be a better structure for the season. Yeah, having the 2 next to one another is a little bit like the arc, though, isn't it? It's a bit like. Well, I think I think they fell in love with the idea that they're all going to be prepared episodes. I mean, this works as an opener because it's reestablishing the doctor and Clara, you know, showing us where they are. It's a blockbuster opening. It was to try and... Yeah, because the dark... Yeah, and get big raped and stuff. Yeah, and it's got Davros in it, but we're not allowed to mention it. Well, this was the season. Art Malik in it? The kids love him. It's like an album track listing, isn't it? Like it can make such an, it can have such an impact on how you enjoy a collection of music or in this case episodes. If it had been rearranged a bit, it might actually have worked. The season that they had a trailer where they put the line, same old, same old... The doctor and Clara, which is from part 2 of the... And I think that's was inadvisable. I think it would have been sensible to have, you know, got Davros back. He's a character that even people who don't know Doctor Who that well will remember and recognise. Yeah. That's your hook. That your selling point. Is it didn't do it? Are we trying not to spoil the surprise of the opener because I don't think knowing that Davros is back is necessarily going to spoil that surprise. I mean, if you if you genuinely don't know who's back at all, then I suppose you get more of a surprise when the kid says Davros. Yeah, but I don't think you're expecting anything. It's only 2 minutes in. I think I think that's a, um, that was a trade-off that wasn't worth making. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think they should have used that advertising ploy all the time. Can you imagine for the war machines? The doctor and Dodo in the TARDS. Same old, same old. I think this, my impression of this episode, this 2 pastor, in fact, has always been that it was less than the sum of its parts but actually watching again, it is that, but the parts are pretty great. Yeah. This is actually one of my favourite of Moffat's season Opers. Okay. And despite its structural flaws. It's just a joy to watch. It is a thing that I'm always asking for and then it comes along and it's kind of like, you know, like I always want there to be Boomtown or in the forest of the night where nothing very much happens and we're just hanging out with the characters for, you know, 45 minutes or whatever. And I mean, this is sort of that. It's checking in with it. Part 2 is just 4 speaking parts from the Daleks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even part one, it's pretty superficial. Yes. I mean, you've kind of forgotten Kate Lebridge Stewart's in it. Usually when she's even on screen. That's right. I struggle to remember when she was in the show. Wow. We kick her a lot, don't we? She's retired from acting. It's just pin money, love. And there's one of the other characters. Is it played by Jay? is it Jay Griffiths? Yes. And she's backing on the side. and gets killed, I think. It's great too, because that's the version of unit where it's all women and they don't remark on it. It's, you know, Rebecca Front and her and, um, and, you know, um Miss Redgrave. And it's just the non-speaking. soldiers that get killed by missing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's pretty awesome. That's kind of great. It's like, you know, Strangely Worlds. Like I was halfway through series 2 of Strange 2 Worlds when I realised that there are 3 men in the opening titles and 5 women and it's kind of like, oh, yeah, that really is a lot better. Let's have that. No, I mean, not the opening titles in the same way, but that's true of the original series, though. There are lots of women in it. They just don't play a significant part. Yeah, yeah, but unit was all men, you know, except for Katie really. Corporal Bell. Oh, and Corporal Bell, who Kate gives a brain injury in a car accident too, is... before the cause of accent. Not before, after the clause of acts. Kate Orman, not Kate Methry. So mean. I was going to think... Have I missed a triple episode somewhere on the way? All right, let's, well, I'll press stop.