Great Balls of Commentary!

[0:00]

One day, I shall come back.

Yes, I shall come back.

Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties.

Just go forward in all your beliefs, and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mind.

Goodbye, Susan.

Goodbye, my dear.

Get out of my box, you painted whore.

And I suppose I should say, Thank you to Richard and James for that prerecorded insert, and to the rest of you, I say, welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who are fully paid up members of the Richard Herndel Appreciation Society.

[01:01]

I am Brendan.

I'm Nathan.

I'm Todd.

I'm Richard.

Hello.

Richard Handel, right?

And we're celebrating 20 years of Doctor Who with our commentary on the 5 Doctors, the Doctor 25th anniversary special that went out 1st broadcast was in, I believe, New Zealand on the 23rd of November.

And the US.

No, I'm thinking of the US.

You're right.

It's super Nemesis that went out in New Zealand first.

That was their crime. was also their punishment.

Now, what we have here is the transmission version of the 5 doctors, which in the 2 disc DVD set, you can find that on disc one.

We've decided to go for the transmission version because this is the version we all saw 1st time around.

But we will occasionally discuss the 1995 special edition during this.

Now, we're still sitting on the menu and I'm going to give you your code word to press play.

That code word is zodin.

So the next time you hear me say that.

[02:03]

What a terrible like you.

It's fantastic is one of my all-time favourite things ever.

You know, just to drop in line.

Yeah, yeah, let's throw in.

He just...

It's fantastic.

That's wonderful.

There we go.

Okay, so, dear listeners, please get ready on your play button, or if, if like, us you're watching on a PlayStation 4, we're not getting sponsored, we really should.

Then you'll be pressing your X button on your controller.

So get ready, dear listener.

Zodin.

And we're off.

Here's Billy.

Hooray.

Those washing up bowls of the same bit of punishment, haven't they?

They have indeed.

Really?

We miss him, don't we?

It's so lovely that JNT decided, you know, obviously he couldn't have Billy had to recast him, but he said, there's got to be some way we can have Billy.

He said to Ian Levine, find me a clip that would be appropriate to go at the top of the anniversary special.

There's few of his teeth in it as possible, but...

No, they couldn't find one of those.

We do, we will, I think, during the course of this talk about the way that kind of Doctor Who fandom conceptualise the 1st doctor, because I think they get the 1st doctor horribly wrong in this.

[03:12]

Yeah.

Well, you can really see where Collins performance is kind of being booted from, can't you?

Well, I think he probably says that he wanted to bring back some of the, you know, irascibility that the 1st doctor had.

But that's not how I feel about the 1st doctor at all, Todd.

No, I think there's a lot of warmth in Heartless performance.

Oh, definitely.

And I remember when this was going out.

Do you remember there was such a stormy night and it was almost going to be like blackouts and they had to broadcast again the following week and there was a power cart. wasn't there in Sydney?

I was actually in Canberra at the time.

It was that exciting. somewhere special to watch it with a lot of fans.

No, yeah, yeah.

It was busy there too.

Oh, there's bloody shoes.

I was staying at the entrance at the grandmother of a friend of the podcast, Edmund Bosworth.

Oh, lovely.

And as a kid, you know, during the school holidays and there was a giant storm there and we had to run out and rescue the washing.

So I think I missed 10 minutes of it on its 1st broadcast as well.

I was hovering over the play record buttons on my VCR.

[04:14]

And then this black and white thing started and I thought, what's this?

What's this?

And then by the time I did that, I don't think I got all apart or speech.

No, no.

Look, brand new console.

Yes, Malcolm Thornton.

What do we think?

world, you know, it's very 80s.

I can't believe she's wearing those super bloody shoes.

Don't they know?

They always end up in, Oh, we're whales actually.

Yeah, I love this console.

The most peaceful place in the world.

Boggy Wales.

Is this his only bit of location work?

You know, I think it might be. to Planet of Fire.

And this is actually a remount.

They recorded these scenes and the film was discovered to be damaged during processing or was damaged during processing.

I'm not sure which.

But they had to, they had to drag all 3 of them back out to Welsh Wales.

I think this is actually really beautiful.

And we've complained about Moffat before, but the last time he did something which was more than undead, I think we all talked about how good he was on location.

[05:15]

And I think this is really good.

I love the performances of the 3 leads.

I love that thing where Turlo shows, the doctor, the sketch, and, like, the doctor kind of subtly indicates that he thinks it's crap.

And then both of them laugh.

That was a really disdainful side eye, wasn't it?

That was worthy of the bitterest drag queen.

Oh, isn't it?

Someone's playing missile command. meanwhile.

Isn't it funny how both Tegan and Turlo are talented at doing the sketching?

It's like the Tartars translating languages.

Now, here we have, Richard Herndle, playing William Hartnell, playing David Bradley, playing the 1st doctor.

And there's a...

The lovely reprise from Three Doctors.

Yeah, there's a wonderful fan theory that this is like 2 minutes after he's been dropped off after that.

Omega nonsense.

Oh, bloody bollocks.

I love that black triangle.

So do I. It's fantastic.

In the 1995 special edition, it was sort of replaced by a glass pyrot.

[06:17]

Whirling, swirly snow cone of gray yucky poo.

It's sort of a cheap CSO Phantom Zone, isn't it, from Superman 95.

Yeah, yeah.

That makes it so endearing.

Oh, yeah, you know, it's...

Who made this for?

Oh, actually, that looks like a Rato's iPhone, doesn't it?

It doesn't read.

Did you think he got turned into that?

as a child.

Can you imagine the fans at home with the making of Doctor Who book going, oh, this is a celestial toy maker?

That's a good point because this was so exciting at the time.

You could only see photos in that, you know, at the time in that exciting radio times special 20th anniversary special.

And, oh, my goodness, how excitement.

It's Lieutenant Carstairs, really?

We talked about how nice it was.

It's really, really cold here on locations, South Wales, isn't it?

The wings whistling through the trees.

[07:19]

I brought this gonk coach, those poor little gerbils.

We were talking about how nice it was that the brigadier had been reintroduced fairly recently and so when he comes back, he is a bit of an old friend and he does have a relationship with some of our regulars.

And, you know, there's there's no...

Oh, well, insist on seeing Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart, but there's no sort of reason for, as you well know, kind of dialogue.

Yay, Pat.

I love Pat so much.

Something I didn't realise till recently.

So good, isn't it?

I know, why?

Well, you know, why?

Couldn't they just find a bit of the BBC?

Because it's on like, hey, because it's on film, it's completely forgivable, though.

You would never know.

No, absolutely.

It's a lot of needless expense. lovely.

Well, I gather that because of the special production budget, you know, they had a bit of, they had a bit of BBC production, but they had a bit of children need, of course, because it went out as part of children in need night.

I think they had a bit more time at Ealing than they would usually have.

[08:20]

You know that it was an ABC, an Australian broadcasting commission co-production as well.

Yeah, and maybe BBC worldwide paid for some of it.

Yeah, I think they did.

And Todd, am I right in remembering that the original ABC broadcast had the ABC logo in the Starfield title sequence and the stars sort of burst out of that?

I had no idea. remember that.

I don't remember that.

Yes?

Something like that.

Yes, that sounding familiar.

Okay.

Because I'm sure...

Always turn to the bottle again.

He's not got it.

No wonder Bambera's coming in.

I really.

The thing I find strange about this is that this sergeant then said, this is the doctor, but he tried to stop the doctor from going in like a minute ago as if he was some sort of, you know, not allowed in. just find that really bizarre.

It must have been...

Consulting the files while they were having...

Yeah yeah.

Maybe he's only familiar with perks.

Oh, the terrible zodiac.

I love that joke.

And then this whole bit is just Pat going off of one and Nick trying not to laugh.

[09:21]

It is kind of a slightly crappy reason to get him here.

He just came in to pass a few snarky remarks about the decor and then he left immediately.

So that's the nicest part.

The thing is that's so packed.

It is so brief.

Hello, go for a stroll for 30 metres and then I've got to go, you know?

And I just love that there are a whole lot of sidey adventures, not even mentioning season 6B, which is obviously part of it.

Well, how does he know later wrong?

Now, Jamie, I love that black triangle.

Yeah, so do I. I don't believe there's actually footage of it, but on an earlier shot, the shot was somehow spoiled when they're turning around to look at the obelisk.

So Pat just ad-lived, you haven't met my aunt Bertha, have you?

They're a great pairing too, aren't they?

It's a really really good choice.

Great jokes to my past detaching themselves like melting icebergs. love that line.

He actually is.

He's not bad in this.

I want to see the Robert Holmes version of all of this.

[10:23]

So Robert Holmes was originally commissioned to write it, and he did write something called The Six Doctors.

Is that correct?

So his premise was because John Nathan Turner said to him, try and come up with some, with some plot, some plot information as to why the 1st doctor looks wrong.

So in Robert Holmes treatment, his idea, it was called the 6 doctors because they were going to acknowledge that this was a cyber duplicate.

Was it made by the daleks on the planet?

Yes.

Say word, because say word, you know, it was so obsessive about cyber persons.

And, of course, they were Robert Holmes's pet hate.

Let's have a look at Revenge of the Side, the people again.

This is just a massive, huge piece of birthday cake, this show.

There is nothing you can say against it other than, you know, he's driving through the plot holes right now, but...

What was I going to say?

Beep, beep, beep.

Good old best.

He's actually, I love that he's written as Captain Haddock from the Tim Tim comics for this one, as we were saying.

Yeah, yeah, the Robert Holmes thing because he hated Cybermen and all the rest of it.

[11:25]

Anyway, they're all set on planet Maladoon. remember?

Yes.

And the cyber people were stealing Time Lords to try and get the coding for their DNA to break the laws of, you know, just got the laws of timiness, as you'd later use in 2 doctors.

And those shoes are just so stupid.

You know you're going to end up walking through a quarry or a bog mine.

They really go with pizza.

How do you think he chooses her outfits?

So does Turlo's hair.

So we do we do dollars?

Do we do Doctor Who frock cast?

because this is Tegan's his her new outfit?

hideous.

Johnny wears it once.

She does only wear it for this.

So what was she wearing in King's demons?

She was wearing the multicoloured mini dress that she'll wear again in Warriors of the Deep.

Oh, okay.

I just like wearing on the anniversary poster.

Oh, but you can criticise that and not this?

Well, I'm criticising the raincoat.

I don't mind that.

Liz is a gonk.

Oh, no, no.

Prada, because that's what Prada was doing then.

[12:27]

It's actually very princess died for a photo shoot before I got married.

That sort of string tie thing.

Yeah, yeah, it's all well, it was Prada in the day.

It's Bill.

Sheathes to deciding everyone's getting to be Bill.

I'm going to be Bill.

Yes.

Yay, John Dason.

Yay.

And your neighbours look at this and go, really?

No wonder you've got no husband.

And yet deaths are falling over.

Look at that.

And the perm?

What can we say about Liz's perm?

Not my favourite thing.

Actually, yeah, toilet.

Oh, she's always good.

You are the afficionado on Sarah Jane's outfits.

How do you rate this one overall?

I don't like this one very much.

A lot of peach happening, isn't it?

you give it one.

5 Andy pandies, do you reckon?

Andy candy.

Look, for me, I mean, I've mentioned this before was when I saw her at the lunch one day in London.

She came out of the tube station wearing another coloured version of that raincoat.

So for me, that will always, that always sticks in my mind. always stick in my mind.

Oh, look who it is.

[13:29]

It's Lala.

Tom.

And somehow the dialogue is instantly improved.

And have you noticed how much more fun this looks because they're not having to stick to a list.

Do you get the impression, even though we all loved 5 doctors, and even at the time, this suddenly felt so fresh and exciting, and Douglas... this bit here. felt yet to us, this and, well, not to me.

Canberra.

It felt...

I was a bit younger, though.

I was a bit younger and I just thought this was just part of it.

I didn't know that Tom wasn't going to be in it.

Oh, okay.

I'd seen pictures of the, in the paper with the dummy thing, but they only used the one where they were all standing around.

I just thought, oh, Tom looks a bit strange.

I didn't put 2 and 2 together.

So actually, I was really disappointed when he actually gets trapped, you know?

So I just took this as part of the story.

You know the dummy thing?

So what you're talking about is they used waxwork from Madame Tussault to represent Tom in the photo shoot?

And that waxwork has actually appeared in Doctor Who in the closing scene of Day of the Doctor, when they have that tableau of all of the doctors together and some smart ass has put Tom's waxwork in there to represent Tom.

[14:38]

Yeah, yeah, go back and look at it.

I honestly didn't realise.

Yeah, and it's strange because like, you know, he was older in the last season and all that.

Whereas I just kind of went with this and, oh, it's great that they're there and they're together and they look great.

And it was just part of the story for me.

Yeah, I remember as a kid, I just thought the 4th doctor getting trapped was part of the plot.

It never occurred to me that Tom only wanted to do a scene or didn't even want to do that scene.

And for me, it increased the drama of it because the doctor who's closest to this doctor is in danger.

So, you know, if he's he's wiped out.

Oh, he's going to start... vanishing now.

He's going to start vanishing.

And, you know, this is somewhere where the special edition's kind of weird because they keep cutting back at, oh, Pete's vanished again and cut to something else and, oh, back to Pete.

He's vanished again.

I don't remember ever watching the special edition.

You know what?

I loved it when it came out. had extra stuff you hadn't seen before.

[15:38]

Was it?

It was like the 1st DVD release.

It wasn't part of the proper range. that right?

They originally...

Oh, and throw your handbag, love. we go.

It was originally done for video.

Okay.

So it came out on a video set with a pack of cards and the Kings Demons.

Um, and he boots uh, the UK chemist chain.

It came out on video with a special blue and black dalek.

Can I actually, sorry, blue and silver Dalek, I think, which I actually have up there.

And I would have hoped like a bottle of Mogadon or something, probably.

But yes, it was then the 1st DVD release was the special edition with a standalone soundtrack you could listen to at the wrong speed.

And in America, it had a commentary with Pete and Terrence Dix, which is also on the 2nd disc of this release.

I'm just looking at Peter fading in and out here, and I've also just seen Tegan's mullet haircut.

I really don't like that haircut.

No, it's Jo 1983.

[16:40]

It's actually a bit rock folly's in 1978.

There's a whole post-punk thing she's doing really nicely here.

She's rocking on.

I love how at this point they've given up using the mechanical opening for the scanner and it's just a CSO inlay.

Yeah, it still works.

It convinced me as a kid. loving the action figures.

Well, they, they were sold at auction a couple of years ago.

Well, you know, they're the only one of the few things that JNT, well, didn't really nick, but, you know, kept after the shoots.

Yes, he took the whole lot.

So that was probably from the Gary Downey retirement fund.

Did I just see Boom Shadow on her hair?

You did.

I believe that's painted out in the special edition.

Thank goodness.

Yeah, well, it ruined it for me. on the whole show.

So I am not liking the new console.

No, I never liked it.

It just looked no, it looked like it was made of liquor.

I love having lots of buttons depressed.

You know, like I love anything with lots of butter.

[17:41]

Well, I think her reaction is really stating at all, isn't it?

And we can't get over that Liz Sladden was allowed to do the warpaper for this episode.

What the hell?

Well, this was what Ark of Infinity looked like, where it was just horrific foil wallpaper.

This is the best who farted scene we've had so far this season.

But this is so much better than Arc of Infinity.

There's depth, there's things off the walls and on the walls.

We've got a much better barusa in the form of Philip Latham.

I think he's much much better.

He just has his name.

The Castalan has not been such a bitch as...

I don't know, with this long. don't know.

Oh, no he is.

He's throwing shade.

And then they've got the wonderful chance for fate.

Yeah, I'll say name.

Yeah, Chancellor, yeah.

Diana Sheridan.

Welcome to the bet.

That can never make any sense, Flavour.

Looky, looky, looky.

It's a bit like, you know what?

For Bondfinger, we watched Thunderball last night.

No, he didn't.

We watched it's non-union.

Yes, right.

We watched Never Say Never again.

And this is a bit like that.

It's like, really, this is the only person you can call in for help.

[18:42]

The only person you can call him for help is a 52-year-old Sean Cottery.

It's looking quite similar covered in all that slap too.

I'm just loving loving the way he runs all his words together.

I assume maybe...

Yeah, it's strange delivery, isn't it?

I do love this line.

Okay, now this makes no sense.

Oh, that's gorgeous.

But hang on, hang on.

This. hang on.

Well, if they've been able to extend regeneration cycles.

The face gives it away.

Why the hell hasn't been pissfighting around with the eye of harmony and several action.

Is this worried about dying?

Yes, that's the point.

Surely, you know, you could say, oh, you need the appreciate, you know, uh, Billy, meanwhile on Scara.

We'll come back to that, won't we?

No, no, I think that regeneration cycle thing has been enshrined in the new show.

That's how we got Capaldi.

But this is the 1st time it's mentioned in the classic series.

And I think that they must have only just invented it because otherwise it makes no sense.

[19:43]

And the only reason this barusa isn't using it.

I know.

Oh my god, it's German expressionism.

No wonder he looks horrified.

He's actually horrified even when he recognises Susan.

We dumped you.

We don't even recognise her.

Like, I mean, I think, I think, I mean, obviously they want to try and, you know, who is this because they don't pick her up like everybody else, but I think it's a bit of a slap in the face that she doesn't get time scooped like everyone else.

I mean, it's written in the novel.

It is written in the novel.

It was never in the script.

They just didn't have the budget for it.

And this dialect looks really rough.

We haven't had dialects for a long time.

1979.

Yeah.

So it's been 4 years.

It is exciting.

And I mean, it is what you want to do for an anniversary special.

It was exciting seeing it on screen again.

There's also a kind of very low tech way in which the doctor defeats the Dalek, which I think works very well.

Like, it's like what would have happened in the Hartley area.

Yeah, absolutely. absolutely.

[20:43]

Um Yeah.

You know, okay, I've said before that Peter Moffatt retired from acting with modern under, but there are some good touches in this, like that high end. directing directing.

Well, exactly.

Peter Moffett is actually Peter Davidson.

Don't speak too soon.

We'll get some great direction coming up short.

Hat. Got a hat.

You notice when he turns naughty bad in case anyone has...

He puts on another little outfit to match the masters and he puts a little blackout victim and he goes and plays the harp because that's just how big people he really is.

Yeah, yeah. been going into the other room, changing the evil outfit, operating, playing missile command for a while, then sort of coming back.

Who was the Joan Crawford all the time?

She had 5 different outfits for different things during the day.

Here we go.

Well, cosmos. scarcely better.

Is he having problems with his dentures?

He's just not sucking.

Yeah, he's sucking his teeth back in.

He's accidentally put in Billy Piper's new teeth.

Exactly.

[21:43]

That's my response as well, Auntie Fluff.

Sheridan just because the most bitchy look.

She's so unimpressed by the whole...

And you know what?

I don't often say this. about Elsbert Gray, but she's so much better than Elsbert Gray.

Who else who looks one of the best things...

She's lying in a sun peep in the death zone, isn't she?

Yeah, in the cushion.

With Zorac, with Zorac.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow, I'm just in the race.

That's my favourite.

It's those two.

Go on.

So cruel of you to say that she's gone.

They send them and not the chancellery...

Maybe that's why Colin's not in this one because Maxwell was set out there.

Well, they didn't seem to have any Maxwells.

What's that?

Yeah, there wasn't a big giant. contract over.

Sucked off to a time.

Can I just say, like, I mean, with Susan?

Like, if you weren't a fan, you wouldn't know who that woman was.

I reckon they should do us.

Oh, but grandpa, grandma did.

I don't think so.

I think like she's unrecognisable.

[22:45]

She's got.

I don't think she's got any traits.

She trips over.

She looks at a big bomb.

That's about it.

She trips over.

That is kind of so.

But they could have gone for stunt casting.

I reckon they could have got some.

Oh, who was bigger 982?

Jane Asher.

Well, Street, they could have got Meryl Streeping to do that role.

Well, even better, rather than these 2 who are unrecognisable, wouldn't have been Peter Cushing and Roberta Toby.

There's a car.

That would have been awesome.

Well, that wonderful thing that appeared on Twitter this week, what would Doctor Who fan Twitter have been like in 1972 with the 3 doctors upcoming when someone actually posted, why is Peter Cushing not in this?

He was in big budget films.

This is a disgrace.

Let's must go.

I've started a Facebook page.

I just want you to think of Peter Cushing and Roberta Toby in these roles.

You know, I think I think that fandom in this period has a really awkward relationship with the idea of Susan and they're slightly embarrassed about Susan being the doctor's grandfather, grandfather.

I meant to say that, about Susan being the doctor's granddaughter, partly, I think, because it implies the doctor once had sex.

[23:49]

Yeah, we can't have that.

But also, I think, because, you know, he abandons her and just gets a sort of string of other people and, you know, is she a companion, that's really great. isn't it?

isn't it?

This is this mitt thing.

It's great.

But they don't want her to be special.

And so, so it is very, very deliberately, you know, she's kind of backgrounded and you get none of the things that you would get in a modern thing.

You know, she meets Peter Davidson and there's no reaction.

Oh no, there is.

Yeah, yeah, there is.

That was made me so angry.

She looks at his crotch or something.

And in the extended version, she really undresses him.

It's quite disturbing.

He's got a fray and eyeballs.

Oh, these 2 work so well together.

They are so good, aren't they?

No, there is actually a lovely thing, but because of crisis and other stuff going on. holding it in.

Yeah.

No, as a child, I didn't pick it up, but now I've been able to forgive them all.

I love this location.

I love that he's come as the Tegan Jabanka appreciation. coat.

[24:52]

I do love that when they bring Susan back in Big Finish with Paul McGann.

They really get her character right.

Yeah, they really do.

Spoiler alert, when they meet for the 1st time, there is no recrimination.

She is so pleased to see him because, you know, you could do a whole hour on...

You left me.

How could you?

And it's like, actually, no.

You didn't...

Simon's wearing...

You left me to...

No, Scotsman.

The Schidman was wearing jeans.

Did you see it, Jeff?

That was David Campbell all the time.

I wanted that scene at the beginning where she says, oh, Graham, I'm just going out to walk the dog.

And everybody goes, who's Graham?

Well, she's obviously ditched.

She's just fallen down a hill.

Oh, no.

That's the cliffhanger to episode.

That's surprising, doom.

So there was a four-part.

There was a four-part version of this where they put cliffhangers in at random, and this is something that we'll revisit, of course, in season 20 too.

But that was the Cliffhanger to episode one.

[25:53]

Her precipitous fall down, a giant steep clip.

And you want to know something?

I think from memory, it's not even the fall that's the cliffhanger.

It's her saying, K 9.

Why didn't I listen to that?

I actually think she fell down quite well, but she did.

It's poorly directed.

They really need, like, this is, like, even Peter Moffat on the making off says, I thought I shot it at an angle, but it looked quite steep, but I didn't tell.

I made I made Liz look like an idiot.

I'm sorry.

Well, you know what was going to happen?

They were actually in a destroyed and it looked like a post-Holocaust street.

And then Autons were going to appear.

And yes, and Pertz and Lizzy were going to, of course, the whole proper mini adventure.

Yeah, and then they said, oh, no, I haven't got the money.

Because we built that stupid set of the unit office and they drank all the rest of the funds, all that, what's his face, Crichton slogging the scotch.

This is also a great moment.

[26:54]

Yes.

Thank you, Towens.

Towence was reportedly furious because it was Sarah who was meant to say teeth and curls.

John said it instead.

And he's like, one, John, as usual, you steal the joke of the scene, two, John, you can't know that.

But she does it beautifully.

Oh, yeah.

Well, by the way, it's just lovely to see the 3rd doctor morphing more and more into B. Arthur.

Because this actually does feel more like a reunion of the Golden Girls does. as we go on.

If you look speaking of which lesson.

If you look at them, you might ask.

If you look very carefully in the Deadpool movie, isn't it?

Todd is having apoplexy.

Let's just sit on this rock and I'm going to go look, see, around, is there actually a corn here?

There is not.

They just make up the corner.

They shouldn't be able to see it.

It's just...

I thought you were complaining about the 2nd polystar in rocking 2 scenes.

[27:54]

You know, it's not like they could have then shot them coming out from behind that rock and faked it.

There's a rock there.

That's why you were when you were saying about his direction, like there's moments of terribleness.

Oh, dear.

I don't mind that.

Oh, you buggered it up.

I love, I love, though, that Susan knows exactly.

Yeah, and she didn't get horribly electrocuted because she's wearing gloves.

She's done all this before.

I dislike her saying the words galifrey as well.

Susan and the doctor weren't from Gallifrey.

Gallifrey wasn't invented until season 11.

Yeah, they're from the year.

They're from the year 5,043 fleeing a war in order to destroy the future.

Another time, another world.

Do you know it was us to direct this, don't you, if you want to say nothing Moffat things?

It was Warris.

Hussein.

Really?

And I believe the only reason he didn't was he was offshooting one of the prestigious period dramas.

He said, I've got a life.

Oh Susan's so excited.

No, but no, she...

And the thing is, the thing is, in a moment when Pete walks around the console, he does, he's looking at Susan.

[29:00]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You see, but there's this thing, but it's kind of, I don't like that he's looking away, but she's actually doing a great little job.

Well, they're given nothing to do and she clearly wants to do something.

Well, evidently.

And the thing is, that thing you were mentioning earlier about Nathan of, you know, not wanting to apply, imply the doctor had sex.

That was coming from JNT.

JNT insisted in the script that Susan Cole, the doctor.

Doctor.

Doctor.

And Carol Anne said.

I'm calling him grandfather, or I'm not doing the show.

Which is one of the few times that Fred actually worked.

And this is great.

Look at Janet's reaction.

And look at Turlo's is sucked in.

Yeah, yeah.

But you know who is in the kitchen?

Chameleon.

So he is.

So he's rusting into the cafe machine.

But again, in the script.

It's Susan and Susan and Tegan who go off and get it and it was both...

It was Carol and Janet in rehearsal said, nah.

[30:00]

They rewrote it.

Don't you love that they've all got their Franklin Mint 20th anniversary collectable tea coasters here.

Yes, and and y-os.

It is never seen ever again.

This is the Q-Lab scene.

I love that little transmat thing.

It is good.

Tom's old.

It is good.

In the commentary, in the David Tennant commentary, which is a special edition for DVD feature.

Which is like an Easter egg.

Not as entertaining as us.

It's pretty good though.

He does call that the coaster of Wrestle.

Now that wasn't the Flavia's part of the screen wasn't locked off there.

She just had to stay really rarely still while Anthony Ainley bucket off.

There's a hint for you, eager-eyed listeners there.

There's an extension to that scene in the special edition where Barusa says, I would prefer to wait alone and they just look at him like, well, fine.

We'll leave then. nipping off to get into his villain costume and play the harp.

[31:00]

He doesn't even have a pole to slide down like Adam West.

Now, you see, this is info dumping, but it's Patrick, so it's wonderful.

Yeah, we don't care. right.

Although he looks really old and tremendously cold, doesn't he?

He looks exactly the same.

And isn't it interesting just as the 3 doctors, when these 2 are together and when Pat's on screen, it's his show. and it's completely the Patrick Trout and show.

He really is the best actor in the entire team.

And I can't remember who had it, but one of the naughtiest.

Yes.

Well, that leads into, I can't remember which one of them, but one of them's got a hip flask under there.

And that's...

All right.

Hooray.

You deserve nothing less.

He's wearing a dressing gown.

Come on, we were, yes, he's actually wearing my mother's order.

No, it's actually Mordron.

But do you remember when we were little thinking that was maybe the emaciated master or another version of the master?

Did you think that is a job?

I thought it was one of the other masters.

I just like how he got his cloak dispensed in the transition.

[32:03]

Yeah, that's the worst thing ever.

Bruce is big on frock.

It would have been so much better if he'd stolen the cloak from the court.

The very master.

I'm cold.

Look at this.

What a lovely spread.

What the hell?

One of them is actually chameleon.

Good point.

The avocado.

Yeah, the centrepiece.

I think the whole centrepiece.

Which bit are they chewing on?

I shall go to the town.

Oh, I think it's got the prettiest backcombed, speaking of mullets, Todd, who's got the prettiest hair in this one.

This might be Pete's best hair for a while.

Is this the one where you've thought apart from Herndl's kind of off?

But actually, I really like his performance.

It just isn't Billy.

But it just I just love who he's playing.

I just know who it is.

Oh, he's no, he's the Dalek replica.

No, no, his kneebrocks. from Blake 7.

Yeah, so he was actually, he did get cast on the strength of his performance as an E-box.

He had the same hair, didn't he?

Yeah, yeah.

He did.

But yeah, John Nathan Turner and his memoirs does say, you know, I saw Richard Herndle in a nappy and said, there's William Hartnell.

[33:08]

There is nothing like him.

Those parties at the BBC, I tell you.

Did you think that at the time that our Pete was the closest to the young Billy of all of the doctors, that they seemed a genuine arc between the two?

I certainly did watching this.

Absolutely, because he does have, he does have that short, shortness of temper thing.

It doesn't really come out in this, but certainly, you know, in things like the visitation and...

I love the short tent tempered.

I think is really good.

Yeah, like when Tegan takes too long to get dressed and enlightened, but his reaction to a frock is just, hmm.

He also has that trout and thing of being slightly panicked all the time, which I like too.

You know, I've been I've been thinking about Troughton recently.

Oh, since doing doctor in 10 seconds, and he really is a ruthless pugger, I'll do a video.

Oh, yeah.

Doctor W?

Oh, here we go.

Has something been done to the colour of this?

It seems more saturated.

It's really pretty.

It's been, it's, they've got the, they had the original film trips and they completely regraded it.

[34:13]

Oh, really?

Everyone's got lots and lots.

I think it's actually just showing up all the foundation.

They were in fact wearing.

Did you get like that somehow Liz has found it?

She got a little blanky on.

Oh, no, it's a plastic Mac.

Friend of the podcast.

Yeah.

Todd.

Jehoshaphat. really you?

I mean, there was, I thought at the time, the way he delivers that line, it's like, is that the master's name?

Yeah, it's not a common sort of playground expression used to, you know, connote surprise, is it?

Well, not since 1920 now.

But Anthony only gets to work now against John Pertby, the 3rd doctor.

I wonder who else who had lines with.

Yes indeed.

But now that Jehoshaphat thing, I never picked up on it, but just yesterday, friend of the podcast, who are Pete over on Twitter, we were discussing misconceptions in the show and he said that he thought the name was Jehoshaphat.

So he takes the seal there.

Hasn't the doctor have that in the new series?

Yeah, but Capaldi producers.

Oh, no, Capaldi?

I thought it was Matt Smith, but yeah, I can't remember either.

I'll have that. such a thieving gypsy, that one.

[35:16]

They're so mean to him, aren't they?

And all he's done is destroy a 3rd of the universe and kill Ness's father.

But from their perspective, that hasn't happened.

Yeah, yeah.

So they're even more mean. exactly.

These thunderbolts are everywhere.

Yeah, what is it?

I think the Novacane hasn't worn off after his sort of dental treatment that afternoon.

I just love this.

Like, he has to, which is quite fun.

And then they get about 30 metres and get blown up.

Oh, graphics.

Well, we already had those crappy graphics in Lagopolis as well.

Does anyone remember whatever happened?

No, not whatever happened to.

Where in the world has come in San Diego?

The Commodore 64 version looked like that.

That's a BBC micro, I think.

Oh, they exploded, Bessie.

That's all right.

She'll be back.

How does it get back?

Oh, the drags it all the way through the dead zone.

[36:17]

This is Glen Ridge hosting sale of the century.

Talk that hat. the same console.

It's a terrible hat.

He's got such a big tit.

Great, doesn't he?

I love his costume, though.

Ooh, how are we?

Are we meant to believe?

Tailor's widow.

Oh, yeah, that's why he's wearing black.

Yeah, but I think maybe we're meant to believe that he's playing missile command.

He's a red herring.

Yes.

We need really?

There wasn't a lot of it, was there, no?

It's again, it's another one of the things you point out, like, it's so exciting with all these potential villains that are actually in the background.

There's only one so far.

Who else could it be other than wrestling?

Well, do we think?

Also, you know, in the in Terence Stick's original treatment, it was the master, and it was actually Eric Zaywood, who said, everyone's going to expect it to be the master.

And, um, Terrence said, well, how about Barusarin and Eric said, that's perfect.

We had Barusa earlier this year and he was a kind old man.

So let's make him evil. screw it up The old man.

[37:18]

Did they make, we did say at the time they tried to get Cardinal Milk Moustache back to play this time.

Aren't you glad they didn't?

Oh, thank no.

No, some great lines here.

Oh, look at Pat.

Bless him.

Just that face.

There's a rather lovely story about how Terrence Dix came to do this.

He was in a he was at a convention in America at 3 AM. his phone rang in his hotel room and it was Eric Say would ask him to write the anniversary special and Terrence said, great, pretty much great.

I'm going back to sleep.

Call me tomorrow.

And when he and when he did call back, Eric Say would explain, well, you know, we've got Bob Holmes working on an idea for us, but we're not we're not sure about it and Bob's not sure about it.

So we thought we'd ask you for an idea.

And whichever idea we like we'll use.

And Terence said...

We'll be fighting one another for our love.

And Terence said, that's no way to treat a writer like Bob Holmes, and come to think of it, there's no way to treat a writer like me either.

And let's just have a moment here for Richard Herndl's pineapple.

[38:20]

There's a blooper where he just completely annihilates it.

It's a nice change from all the Mangan that he was eating in that Blake 7 episode, I think.

But yeah, Terrence pretty much said, look, come back to me when you've decided what you actually want to do and I'll do it.

And, you know, he had no problem with replacing Bob Holmes, but he wasn't going to go into competition with him.

So, John has just spied the side of him, so...

So, a side man has appeared on screen in a John story.

Yes.

In two.

Really?

for two?

Mind of evil?

And Carnival of Monks.

But even so.

Yeah.

But, I mean, the idea that, you know, every doctor has to meet the cyberman, you know, that is a sort of making of Doctor Who or the Doctor Who monster book brigade that we're really appealing to here.

And the cybermen are kind of terrible in this.

I mean, they're always terrible, aren't they?

And particularly in the 80s.

Yeah, well, part of the reasons they're so terrible is that Terence Dix hated that.

Yeah, right.

But also you end up with...

[39:23]

You end up with 3 different teams of cybermen because they can't afford autons and they can't afford more than one yeti.

That's that's why there's so many.

So I remember because they had 12 suits or whatever.

Right.

And it's not just Eric Seywood's fetish, it's a matter of what they could actually afford.

I love the nursery rhymes. out here and I love all the mist, like the actual on location stuff, not the overlaid stuff.

Like, it really does make it quite atmospheric at times.

It is a really miserably cold shoe.

Well, I mean, there's that story about John and his having to slap each other's senseless in the face to get colour back into their faces on vacation.

Right?

Yeah, but then they kept doing it in the studio and it just got awkward.

Get a room, guys.

Just brought back horrible memories of Monster of Paladon, probably.

No, Etis.

No.

Yeah, why didn't they bring back Terry Walsh for the anniversary special?

He's just as important.

That would have been awesome.

[40:23]

Look at Pete.

I love Pete running. dressing to the left.

Yep Pooey.

It's a matter of...

That looks delighted to see him too.

Did you see that?

I'm sorry, it's like, you know, we're walking up this hill and we haven't even looked over there.

Like he's just standing there, please.

Hey, so, you know what?

To be honest, yesterday I was walking down a foot path and 3 people from work passed me and called out to be after they'd passed me and I didn't even notice them.

So I don't mind that so much.

What I do mind is that the doctor doesn't see this bloody side.

Spider-Man comes up and goes, and then goes away.

And in the special edition.

In the special edition, they cut out that R because it wasn't deemed serious.

Oh, please.

And these 2 didn't even see it.

Yeah, exact, you know, you'd think those 2 at least.

The Cybermen are hilarious in this, and it continues the tradition of having a super camp super posh side of the left-hand.

And it's the one who goes, promises to an alien.

[41:23]

We have new military. is really great.

It is carry-on tea lots, isn't it?

They've they've had to paint over the...

There's a very short side, man.

You're wearing trainers or something.

They've had to paint they've painted over the glass jaws by this point.

Was it only David Banks' assignment who had glass shore?

No, all of them?

All of them originally.

And if you look at close-ups here.

I've got your yo-yo.

Yeah, I believe to regrade the film, they looked at the piping on Pete's lapels and made it match the studio sequences and that was kind of their touchstone because each shot has to be, well, each camera has to be individually graded.

Yeah, look out. in the other way.

And now it's like...

You can't just leave...

What are you freaking yourself?

Not only that.

But when Tegan moves away, there's actually a cyberman between Susan and Tegan and the doctor that they didn't notice and that didn't go after Susan and Tegan.

[42:24]

Now, this is just a lovely, huge piece of cake and the fudgy icing is sinking into all the plot holes.

That explosion was quite close. twice as big and a piece of shrapnel actually cut through Anthony Ainley's cloak.

Oh wow.

You know, and and...

That's enormous Anthony Ainley was terrified of all the explosions and whatnot.

He insisted on doing it himself because he was a professional, but...

Yeah.

Yeah, very nice.

And oh, in the special edition, they get Paul Jericho to say, we're bringing him in, blah, blah, blah.

It's like, you don't need to.

He presses the button.

And this is wonderful too.

And the practical light on him.

His delivery is really good.

Well, come on.

Come on, Susan. trip over nothing.

I'm the one in the stupid shoes and I'm so faster than you.

That's why he dumped you.

You know, they could have had the shot like that and you don't actually see what she trips over, but it's a sh, it's a shrub.

She slowly lowers herself to the ground as well, doesn't she?

[43:25]

He had a great shot.

With the hand and all that, and then it's followed up with that.

And that, you know, that's the story of Peter Moffatt, really.

See, even that I think I like that.

Yeah.

This is not an equity member. love it.

I do too.

I love it.

How can you not love it?

If you like cake, you like this.

Yeah.

I like being drunk with your and getting away from your relatives at Christmas and to watch this.

You love this.

It's a great way of clearing a room to put this on.

Everyone goes under, but we do it every Christmas.

Yes, dear we do.

Are we going to do a dimensions in time commentary?

I think we should.

I've never seen it.

Yes, you have.

I've not seen it.

Little bits of it.

But then it's not very long anyway, is it?

It feels weird the 1st doctor saying trans mat as well.

Yes, it's wrong.

He never said trans anything, did he?

wasn't up for any of that.

No, he's a miserable old person.

You.

Oi, you, hello.

You could be my new granddaughter.

You know, I swapped them out quite frequently.

[44:28]

Oh dear.

This changes things. ain't got no hat.

Look, I mean, this is better than Arc of Infinity, but yeah, but so yeah, that's right. moscopy.

That's it.

That's it. death by embolism.

But it's still very leaden, isn't it?

Lots of people sitting around.

Well, how can they outact those columns?

At least it's really, it's Radio City musical...

Bag Olympics.

At least the space college. table on a table, all that.

There's a bit more going on than that awful room that they had in Arkham.

Yeah, they're all sitting in rows.

Yeah, there's depth of field.

Depth of field.

Like here.

You know, and the thing is, Doctor Who so often you have the proscenium arch approach, which looks artificial on television, but this is a believable layout of people in a room.

Well, there are Atari Games Master.

It really is great, isn't it?

And Paul Jericho is knocking it out of the park today.

I love that.

But Flavia is stealing everything.

[45:28]

You know that sound that everyone says of the of the Dark Tower was the Queen Mary's horn put through.

It is not.

It's just flavia making asides.

Really?

the antechamber.

She says, and then they just sample that.

You gave him...

Yeah.

Sorry, oh, I got it right.

It a lie. his voice got up a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, look, he looks so hurt as well, but the doctor wants revenge.

I think Flavi is just thinking about the begoni as she and Pamela Salem are going to play.

And does he wants revenge because Maxwell was so mean to him.

Maxwell's regenerated.

There he is.

They did ask Colin to come back, but he was unavailable.

Had they cast it?

don't know.

Oh, yeah, the news was out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, this was out.

Yeah, so I think they didn't bring him back because they knew he was.

Because he wears that lovely, what we all assume sixth doctor costume in the 20th anniversary special, that charming seasucker suit, so to speak, and Navy shirt and no.

[46:36]

And even Nicola looked charming in that.

We were looking forward to it, weren't we?

Oh, okay.

Colourfully.

I did feel at the time it was so cold. doesn't it?

I also like that he's wearing the same cosy that what's his face wears at the beginning of Genesis of the Dalek.

Oh, he really is.

Almost, except that's actually very court gestry, but you know.

We decided it was death, wasn't it, from the 7th seal?

Yeah, it was.

One metre away and had a private discussion.

This is the promises to aliens have no validity line.

Yeah, it's very good.

I'm glad you brought that up.

If you want to look at filmic antecedents for this and what shot on film, wasn't it?

So if you want, then, yes, Bergman, but really, it's a really long stretch to try and look for...

Oh, a bit of cyberacting.

There's a lot of fist acting in this, so to speak, isn't there?

Verusa.

Well, we're not meant to know Sperusa is doing a lot of hand acting over the games board.

[47:37]

Well, he picked it up from Hedden, you see.

Yeah, I just love, right, that Carol Anne Ford left the show because she was getting nothing interesting.

And they'd bring it back to the 20th anniversary special.

Twister, ankle, and locker up.

All she gets to do is watch this bomb being built.

That scanner.

With the catering manager of the Tartars.

Oh, dear.

She probably went into Chameleon's his cupboard and started ordering him around.

Looked like David Campbell.

Do you know that is?

So actually, Susan, she's knocked out in the kitchen.

Well, I think we were going to, we had decided in our King's Demons episode that we were going to be identifying who Cameleon was pretending to be in this story.

I think it's Tegan.

It's Tegan because she manages to just walk across that checkerboard.

Like everybody else with absolutely no direction.

Who?

I mean, he's really going back to Terry Nation's greatest hits with the Bath Mad of Doom from episode three's Death to the Dialects Cliffhanger.

[48:40]

You know, when I watched this originally, and we're watching John and Liz obviously looking at scaling up the cliff face.

I just kind of thought some of the dialogue with Liz was like, to me, it wasn't quite right with Sarah.

Like, I felt like it had been written for Joe. Like even then, I kind of thought, would Sarah be like that?

I don't know.

I just thought there was something slightly off.

I love this thing.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

The Russian Mario robot played by dancer Keith Hodiak.

I love it. you know what it did. don't you?

Sorry.

Well, just he was... moves so beautifully.

Yeah, yeah.

And everyone noticed.

Well, he's a re-sprayed.

Oh, yes, the things from the...

The boy version.

Yeah, it's a cyber Android, which then is kind of visually confusing for any fan child saying, hang on, we've seen you just last year.

Well, it jumps in and out.

It's fantastic.

Did you know the problem?

It was actually just resprayed.

They didn't know to say it.

It really is silver resprayed to the point that they were having to hold a hairdryer on set on his crotch because it was a different colour. because the paint was drying more slowly around his nether jumpers.

[49:52]

And so, yes.

And then they are watching the hand dry going on.

I'm gonna just say, he's his freezer again, freezer or dead.

But then, like, every 5 seconds, well, well, actually, not now, but he actually then moves his head moving.

Yeah, so, like, you know, is she going to be his shield when he's steering through?

He is comfy, comfortably right behind her, isn't he?

Oh, yeah.

You show her handies.

That's right.

I'll outmouth you, girlfriend.

I will say that they make a good team, don't they?

Well, I think it is a good choice to put both of them together.

The costume designer on this episode does a wonderful job because the 1st 2nd of the 3rd doctor costumes are complete recreations and he's done those.

Oh, his name's on the tip of my name. not June Hudson.

I always wanted to be June Hudson.

We're getting some really bad time on acting.

And I do think there should be more things of wrestle on just generally in the show.

What are you suggesting?

Well, I just think it really lifts it and gives it a mythic quality.

[50:52]

You know?

It's not...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, the 1st time the scrolls went off and caught fire.

One of them fell out and Philip Latham stepped in just to bash it out, forgetting he was wearing silk gloves, which also caught fire.

Here we go, here we go, here we go, here we go.

Is it?

Oh, here we go. not the mind pro.

And there are other takes of this that elsewhere on this DVD.

You were such a bitch in the last story.

Bye.

It's actually quite, I like that shot.

Anyway, I thought mind probes were easy.

You just broke them by thinking about, you know, like a medusa with a leg and stuff like that.

Penny farthing bice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. seals, no walruses, walruses.

The costume designer was Colin Levers.

Hooray, Colin.

Yeah, we're on.

That's great.

Yeah, that is terrific.

Yeah, I think my favourite unused take is him saying, no, not the mind probe.

[51:59]

Oh, really?

There was an even more over the top.

Yeah, yeah.

He kind of says all the making off.

There's no way you can deliver that line.

Yeah, just like they have time for this, but they don't have time to give Susan anything to do.

Yeah, looks like Pete's wearing blush in this scene.

I think we've got the...

I think that we've got the colour turned up too high, probably.

No, I think that actually, yes, colour rendering on film is very...

This is some... videotape, though.

Oh, this is true.

I mean, they do they do grade the videotape as well for these DVDs.

Yeah, yeah.

Something I forgot to mention earlier.

They did actually get Heather Hartnell's approval to recast.

The role, yes, I think. remember hearing that.

Yeah, but sadly, on another note, Richard's not on, Richard Herndle's not on screen at the moment, but he died not long after this.

[53:01]

He died in 1983 before his payment had come through.

Yeah, it was so soon.

Yeah, so did they, did they like...

Sorry, in the check?

He died in 1984.

I don't think they did.

I think it went to his family.

They would have cancelled the check and spend it on a tractator, probably.

Is it?

Now, is it in honour?

Isn't the lighting in this scene amazing?

Because the costume was incomplete.

What?

It doesn't have the beak.

It only has one hand.

It doesn't have the feet.

Which costume is it?

the 1st one or the 2nd one?

I believe it's the 2nd one.

But with the 1st claw, because that's all they could find.

You get a better look at it on one of the special features on the DVD, a Blue Peter special feature where its feet appear to be slippers.

I mean, it makes no sense.

They're animated by the great intelligence.

They're not just a generic monster, but essentially no one who's watching the show now is likely to ever remember that.

We know, don't be.

[54:02]

Yes, I'm going to write to the BBC.

I love how it runs away.

It's a Gary Glitter.

But it's back with that explosion.

And the raw.

The fabulous roar that it does.

It is terrific.

Do you remember Marty the monster from one of those?

Purple creature from one of the Channel 10 morning kids show.

Yeah, yeah.

It looks like a bit like a Yeshi.

All sort of spongy and that sort of thing.

Just reminds me of that.

Now, the brigadier's line there of you've maddened it. has been pulled out a lot recently by Brexit supporter, Gareth Roberts on Twitter, when he gets into an argument with anyone about Brexit here.

He'll often retweet them with, you've maddened it.

That's Roberts or everyone else's responsible.

No, that's Gareth, that's Gareth.

Gareth Roberts.

Wow.

Sorry, hang on.

Gareth Roberts is a supporter of Brexit.

Yeah, so let's not go there.

That, that, that, I'm, that's on public record.

That is how he presents himself.

Actually, all good reasons if you'd want to talk about, but we'll probably we're doing a podcast, so...

[55:04]

I'm making the lightning bolt motif.

It's terribly Rocky Horror picture shows, isn't it?

But I like how they just find this by accident.

Well, no, no, the doctor did come in saying there's 3 doors.

Oh, no, but how would you find, you know, Oh, yeah, they just...

Yeah, they just happened to get caved into the book.

But how does he know?

from the old times.

No one in gut on gut, the capital knows about.

Well, no, he says he says there was a nursery rhyme.

Yeah, well, about the dark town.

He was there, wasn't it?

Yeah, he's much older.

Oh my gosh.

Look, it's a thing and some piping.

So, were they was floaty with balls?

Was this time scooped in as well?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Isn't too much more of this, but you're going to move your head.

Again, and stand in front of me.

Isn't Barusa's aim to actually get the doctors there to butter up Barusa, so to speak, so that he will get immortality.

Why is he making it this much harder?

[56:05]

No, he's getting, he's...

That really hurt.

Oh, it does move beautifully and it's a little bit sexy.

Liz can't take her eyes off of it.

Wasn't this whole sequence directed by John Nathan Turner?

Yes, it was.

Yes, it was, which is why it moves very closely and there's a lot of shots of the, where the hairdryers just been.

There are a lot of shots of where the hairdressers are.

And I just I just noticed when when the cyber leader came up the hill and noticed the 1st dead side manny sort of jerk's like, oh.

But they keep coming.

They won't be determined.

Well filmed, isn't it?

JNT is not a bad director.

This is really great.

Now, this scene came about because this was the last scene to be written, I believe.

That whole back is great.

Yeah, yeah.

This is the last scene to be written because Eric Saywood called Terence Dixon said, look, we've done a timing.

We're running about 3 minutes behind.

I think John gets there too easily.

This is a mouthful of cold tea, by the way.

He said, I think John gets to the tower too easily.

[57:08]

So we need an obstacle for John.

It needs to use stuff we already have, it needs to be exciting, dynamic, and above all cheap.

And unnecessarily violent.

Well, the time, Eric, say, would.

Well, the unnecessary violence actually came from Terrence Dicks, because terrorist Dicks were so sick of the rewrites and so sick of the cybermen that he's like, right.

Here's a guy in a silver spandex suit, killing all the cybermen.

You have to think that he didn't write.

Lots of scenes where they get beheaded and have their arms shot off and they're vomiting cold tea out of their face.

No, he probably just wrote, there's a fight.

They fall over.

Okay.

The Terry Nation School of writing a script.

It's supposed to have some death and destruction. after the year we've just brought. true, yes.

You were doing it for you, Tom.

God, the daycor, I'm galafre is lame, isn't it?

For God's sake.

I can't wait until John Hurt blows the place arm.

Or doesn't.

I still think this is better than... whatever it's called.

[58:11]

I do preggies?

I don't think it's just, it's not a flattering costume.

Empire line, isn't it?

Oh, still doing sideies.

We just actually missed something returning from the heart and era, which is the plastic lined fountain from the Romans.

Ah, yes. plastic lined.

Oh, nice.

Glass shot.

That is pretty, isn't it?

She looks like a bond girl there.

Can I just say, if I was a Dr. 2 companion and I had to go across a flying clocks across that, I would have probably let go and been killed. no way I would have done it.

You would be going and why do we care?

Like none of us at home watching can remember why we're going there.

I fell off a flying fox once at school care.

It's an entry coder.

Sorry.

Go on, Tom.

How does she know that?

Yeah, how does he know what a transmitter is?

How does she know what an entry coder is?

Oh, you're crazy.

That'll never work.

Your words are spoken.

Now, there's in the in the special edition, there's a bit here where Sarah tries to throw a rocket at pursuing side man. just makes her look like an idiot. is hilarious.

[59:16]

It is hilarious.

She just throws it and she says, Missed.

I must go home and watch that version.

I really don't remember seeing it.

Every resources.

Look at that.

They fall down in the middle.

Oh, a little bit of tension.

Was this a cliffhanger?

No, this wasn't a cliffhanger.

Actually, I think we've missed wherever the 2nd cliffhanger was.

I do remember very well where the 3rd one is, and I'll point it out. because it's curiously undramatic, but I can't remember the 2nd one.

Oh, it was.

It was.

I liked all this like...

I love all of her little moans and greens.

But it is very typically Sarah. you know, Sarah's back.

So they're climbing the ramparts of the tower now. have to dangle her off things.

Yeah, you're bum.

Yes, lots of gratuitous Sarah Bumshite.

That's quite nice bum too, actually.

Oh, and a little bit of naughty skirty shot there too.

I mean, the only Sarah isms that are missing, uh, she doesn't get possessed and she doesn't, she doesn't say, cut.

[1:00:17]

Oh, we miss you, Liz.

We miss her so much.

Some of those shots are a bit dodgy, don't you think, with the town?

The license is all wrong.

I am feeling that most of my friends are dead.

You know what?

Never say never again we watched last night.

We commented on the blue screen in that.

I wouldn't say these blue screen shots for any words. almost same year, yeah.

Yep.

Oh, it is the same one.

Big in it.

So what have they done?

All they've done is lifted it up and moved it nearer the piping.

It's worth the piping over here.

It's either that scene with the bomb or the previous scene with the bomb was the 2nd cliffhanger.

Okay, so now it's a lovely Marley Lino floor we've just put in.

This makes no sense at all.

But wait, but Terrence used it really convincingly. in debt to the dance, right?

Thank goodness that he manages to get them, you know?

So I, this is my head cannon, right?

This is designed to keep non-time lords out of the tower, right?

So we discover a giant pattern where you have to go 3.14159265 or whatever.

[1:01:23]

And, you know, he works it all out.

It's all pie, but then he just strolls straight across the thing.

Yeah, appalling...

Yeah. so and so does the master.

I mean he does a little bit of a leap about the place.

I love the fact, Anthony Anley is now getting to act with the 1st doctor.

Yeah, it's exciting.

It's like the pretend crappy master meets the pretend crappy 1st time.

But you know, as a kid, like whenever you see them.

Sorry, Todd, go on.

As a kid, like, you know, you'd play games where you'd try and avoid the cracks in the pavement for all lines for weeks.

Yeah, beautiful. so here.

It's like when I was watching this even as a kid. no, don't step on the lines.

You've got to step inside the little boxes, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, I believe Terrence's concept for using pie to solve it was so pie being 3.14, et cetera, et cetera.

So on the 1st row, you step on the 3rd time.

On the 2nd row, you step on the 1st tile, et cetera, et cetera.

[1:02:27]

But it doesn't.

But no, it, well, I also, that's hard.

Yeah.

Five to nine. hard.

Yeah, yeah, no, I wonder.

3.14159.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

What I...

We're going to get from 9 to 2 after that, actually.

What I thought it was as a kid because, you know, the master just sort of wanders along in a straight line.

Is it somehow the figure, it's on a timer system, was my theory as a kid.

And somehow the figure for pie tells you when it's safe to cross.

So it's not a matter of a safe path.

It's a matter of the lasers aren't always active.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, see, this is more, and they do, it does cause them to lower themselves gently to the ground again.

And they're really tall, thin side and then staggers back.

We have another massacre.

Yes.

He's still breathing, though. okay.

Oh, betrayed.

No, no.

Yeah, no, he's going on Shakespearean on us here, isn't he?

Maybe you're all dead, but...

[1:03:30]

I actually think that Anthony Ainley and the master have a good turn in this story.

Yeah, compared to our last few outings.

Yeah, I mean, he's a...

He is terrible.

But, I mean, because this is such a cartoon, it's nice to have him.

And I really like what happens to him at the end.

I think that's really fun.

It's his best performance since Lagopolis, I think.

It's his best performance as the master since Lagopolis, because I think still his best performances are Tree Mass and the Portreeve.

Yeah I love how the 1st doctor actually looks really horrified by what's just happened to the cybermen.

Yeah.

So these are the last scenes with, um, these are the last scenes with Janet and sorry, Tegan versus the Master, really.

Like, this is her life. that's true.

Last time she meets him?

Yeah, yeah, a meeting story, obviously.

It's as easy as pie.

I love pie.

I don't know, I think he isn't going to recognise him. that is great.

[1:04:34]

It was his brother, but he can't remember it.

Been watching too many soaps.

I actually think Anthony only when he goes across the board actually makes an effort to actually do something a bit different every time.

Whereas I just find with whatever they said to Richard Handel, oh, you're feeling a bit tired, just shuffle across, you know.

Well, I'm worried that there's like a cyberman like lying across the one that you have to train.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, like I can't get on that one because there's like a dead cyberman.

Could they clamber from dead Cyberman to dead Cyberman without touching the thing?

Actually, that would have been a great, great, a great way to do it.

Any of them moving?

I'm trying to.

Oh, that one laughed. over there.

Whatever.

Whatever.

I'll just tread on any of them.

Now.

You walking exactly as I just wants to kill it.

Yeah, I like her face there.

That's nice.

And you see, he says now as if it's a timed thing.

And I always wanted as a kid.

I always wanted that scene to end with.

[1:05:35]

No, you've done waited too long now.

Wait again.

Oh God.

This is, yeah, you're all screwed.

Oh, dear.

Sucky...

Oh, bald spot, come over.

Pong.

I do love those curtain column things.

Space columns there, great, aren't they?

It's very Flash Gordon, and that's the point.

It meant to feel like an RKO 30s.

Very Castra valve and it's a nice thing that they're doing it.

Probably.

Nice lettuce.

Pete does spend a lot of his time as the doctor touching things, doesn't he?

And just sort of wandering from place to place.

Which is risky because as we just saw, one of those plinths wobbled as soon as he does.

Look, it's the hats all the time.

They would never have had enough momentum to get up the other end of that, would they?

It's so long, it's much longer.

She's still hanging in the middle being miserable.

The original concept was that he was going to make a hang glider out of his cape.

[1:06:38]

Which is why he took the Raston Warrior robot speary thing.

And I believe everyone involved, including John, just said, um...

Yeah.

Not that John had any objection to hang gliding.

He's just kind of like, there's a certain... would have been fantastic.

It's as good as Adam West in Batman, which is really who the 3rd doctor is when he's not being...

Although everyone's doing big hair, aren't they?

See, to me, to me, Sarah's reaction here.

I don't know.

I just kind of think it's more Joe than Sarah.

I don't know.

Yeah, girly.

I want to be critical of it.

I mean, I love Liz, but speaking of, was Joe ever considered to be in it?

So the original consideration was Susan, Jamie, Joe and the Brig and Sarah.

Right.

All right, here we go.

Here we go.

Phantoms.

He's looking pretty, he's looking all right.

Yes, I guess that'd have been...

Almost 10 years.

Really?

Like a herring in aspect.

And Liz.

Hooray.

Carrie John.

She should get unrecognisable.

But again, like a lot of people haven't seen her by this day.

[1:07:41]

Also, no one's only in every year than the fans.

Now, of course, you know, we did discuss at the time, apparently John and Carrie, got on okay, but there was tension between them during the rehearsal for this because these scenes were kind of who's available on what day, get him in the studio, rehearse record.

Um, As I always, wait a 2nd because we get a great moment from Carrie John here.

I, there's a little bit of fabulous running away from John as well.

I actually think that was really them.

Do you know what I mean?

Like they found themselves in the dark town.

They talked actually about how much they hated John.

Decided they'd prank him.

She's done her ass and she came in.

I would say you would.

Oh, come over dryer of wrestleon.

Yes, yeah.

Well, it's almost broke on the rest of Warriors.

He's having a good pet.

This is such a... have another group.

But yeah, so it was like reverse record.

[1:08:43]

Carrie John came around the corner and did her 1st line, like something like, oh, there are 5 of you now, and John turned to Peter Moffatt and said, is she really going to do it like that?

And Peter Moffat just said, there was nothing wrong with that, John.

Wow.

And the way Carrie John tells it, she's like, I don't know if John was expecting something different and he was perfectly present to me for the rest of the time.

But, you know, I hadn't acted in years.

I was terrified when he said that and beat him off.

So I got my hair.

I love you, John, but you gave me a fright.

Wow.

This is lovely as well.

Fear itself is largely an illusion.

Yeah, he's got a bit of the sweetness there.

And here comes the...

I think he's a great person.

Here comes the creeps.

Oh, I remember that.

That's right.

Stomping down some stairs.

Oh, some musical stairs because Peter Howell synced it up.

Yeah, they like the stairs in big or in, yeah.

Now, Fraser Hines, Emmerdale wouldn't release him to be fully in the production.

So this is the only bit we get of Fraser, and they managed to get Wendy in as well, who was pregnant with her daughter, Charlie.

[1:09:47]

Wow.

At this point, I believe.

Was she retired?

They were so worried.

She was an agent, but...

Yes, in case she fell over.

She's actually come as Noah's left hand.

We need to... famously, in that dress?

No, it's a terrible outfit.

It even exists in when she, oh, isn't it nice to see Jamie looking so old.

They've definitely all been travelling for it. doesn't she look great?

Yeah, she looks so good.

I just want to roll her over and here I go.

But continuity.

Well, yeah. originally the scene was written for Victoria.

And she was going to call him the brigadier, which would be the doctor's clue.

But you know why she wasn't available?

She was shooting an exciting new sitcom with Dave Allen.

Is everyone enjoyed that one?

No, I've never even heard.

No, neither had Dave Allen.

Whoops.

Oh dear.

I think she might just, you know, had a big night the night before.

So yes, this makes no sense.

[1:10:48]

But look, canonically, there were comics at the time where the doctor was exiled to earth and working for the time lords before he regenerated.

What if, when they take the regeneration out of time, they take the entire regeneration out, not at a particular point, but they take...

It's like a distillation.

See, head cannon.

My thing is always that, you know, whenever they meet themselves or in the presence of their other selves, things get muddled and they don't remember it when they get back into their timestream. remember a bit of it.

Yes, I met myself, but I don't really remember the details.

They address.

But then when they when they meet each other again, it all becomes crystal clear.

And so maybe it's the time thing.

Yeah, yeah.

He knows from the last time he met the 3rd doctor that that's what's happened.

So, but it is always a thing where this show wants to do continuity all the time increasingly now, but gets it wrong really, pretty much every time it tries.

Yeah.

So, yeah, the original lineups planned were, as I said, Susan with the 1st doctor, Jamie with the 2nd doctor, the brigadier and Joe with the 3rd doctor, and there were, because the ABC were co-funding, there was some talk of paying to fly Katie over to the UK, but I think the funds weren't available, and at any rate, Katie was working at the time needed, I think, on stage.

[1:12:05]

And Liz was going to be with the 4th doctor, and that's what Liz was told originally.

Sarah Jane. was going to be with the 4th doctor.

And then when Tom... very keen on that.

Yeah, yeah.

And he was also very keen that he was going to be the putative villain in the original draft.

Yeah, I've always wanted to view that.

Because you always were, Tom.

But yeah, so when Tom pulled out, they kind of went, well, hold on, we can ripple Sarah back to John and everyone's been in this forever.

And okay, we don't have Fraser.

Well, Pat.

Oh, do we know where these symbols come from?

Oh, oh, do we?

Fan boy, no.

The original making of Doctor Who from 1972.

The designer was given a copy.

Malkis was given a copy of Uncle Malki's book.

But it's like the empty set, Mew, cubed, you know, like it's just...

No, they're random mathematical cinema.

The doctor's name is on that, by the way, from that book.

Sorry, Todd.

No, no, I love I love all the Tegan and Sarah stuff in the background.

Yes, they made the brigadier and I love that.

[1:13:05]

They had that sequence in the book that they don't have here.

Oh, what's that sequence?

Well, they talk about, you know, which doctor is witch and all that?

Oh, nice.

This is nice.

See that's really, really good.

But he shouldn't know who Tegan is.

He's from his retirement dinner.

For him, this is before the school.

It was his retirement dinner.

At the beginning.

No, it is too. and the costumers got it right.

He's frocked up as 70s brig, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I thought he'd grown his moustache back because he'd rediscovered himself in Modern Undead.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe it's a reunited dinner.

It was a reunion.

They say reunion.

I thought it was a retirement.

What do we think of the floor of the studio here?

I think they've gone to a lot of trouble.

They said we're playing dodgums with the Dalek podcast.

They've, you know, Rob dipped a couple of rags in black paint and kind of just dragging around the place.

The non-billy is really nicking the scene, isn't he?

We'll just stand back here because, you know, it's not about us.

Well, even though we made your show watchable.

[1:14:10]

Reportedly, Richard Herndel was quite nervous because he really wanted to get it right. almost dead.

And almost dead. almost dead.

I think he's a fine he's a fine actor. but that's okay.

He's doing his own thing.

I agree with you, Nathan, that he doesn't quite have the level of warmth, but there is enough of Billy there.

You know where that's coming from?

That was JNT telling him to play it like this.

Yeah, you know, I think he kind of gave each of the old doctors a 2 or 3 word.

Yeah, this is how you're playing. the grumpy one.

Front Botomy.

Yeah, but everyone everyone says that about the doctor at the time.

Well, because no one's watched it.

And it's also because Dwoss, you know, there were 2 or 3 people in Dwosses. exactly what it was always like.

Yeah, yeah.

There was a real kind of received fan wisdom about.

Yeah, which is entirely based on not having seen the show for...

Like, you know, really, there's a lot of Pat's performance missing.

There's a lot of twinkle missing from Pat's performance.

But I think we decided in the in the 3 doctors that one of the reasons for that is that Pat doesn't have his companions and that's really important for Pat.

[1:15:17]

And in fact, here he gets to play off the brigadier and that works very well.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, that's it's not a criticism, but it's a matter of when you when you kind of bring these many actors back, you've got to kind of distil their characters to a few key points.

I love the fact that, again, Anthony...

They're covered.

And have that little scene with Patrick in there.

So he actually gets to work now with all the doctors in the original series.

Yeah, it's it is rather wonderful.

Oh, we're walking away.

Where's our bomb?

Now, what did they do with the bomb?

They ate it.

I know.

It's right there.

It's just so close to the Titus, it can't be seen.

Die.

That was very nice of him, wasn't it?

It's always so positive.

And each of the team, each of the 3 teams of the sidemen we've had do have slightly different modulation.

And 2 of them are dead.

Oh, dear.

Now, weirdly, in the special edition, they change this tune, and, you know, it's not really to match his fingering, if you'll pardon the expression.

[1:16:20]

It's a little bit Doctor Whoey theme in this version.

Oh, what a lovely organ.

It's a bit like replacing Jumpnub at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Yeah.

Yeah, we've got to make the Ewoks more gritty.

Yeah, yeah.

That worked.

Oh, Susan does get a little figurine after all..

Yeah, sorry, Richard, we don't have any of these.

Actually, I think you can now get that John in red coat in the 13 doctors set for an armour leg and $5000.

We're waiting for that to go die in.

There'll be other versions of it, you watch.

But yeah, I love it.

He looks stunned, really, doesn't he?

Now this was going to be Tom.

This was going to be Tom's bit in the original script and Pete was going to stay in the TARDIS.

I thought Pete was going to go to the tower and the 1st doctor was going to stay in the tower.

No, Pete was going to stay in the TARDIS.

That was it.

Yeah.

When you get your leading, man.

[1:17:20]

I mean, they don't do it here either.

That's what Terence said in the end because his initial thought was, who's the most corruptible doctor?

It's Tom.

So I'll put Tom in the situation where he can be corrupted?

And then when he lost Tom, he's like, actually, it makes a lot more sense for it to be Peter because that's dramatic.

We know that Tom didn't turn evil.

But Peter could turn evil.

Again, there's still a, there's a lot of luck in what's happening. here on the screen.

Like all these things have to play out for us to get what we've got here in terms of the people and the sequences and that sort of thing.

Only November and he's got all his Christmas fairy lights flaring up on the back seat.

I was actually thinking it's like milk crates, isn't it?

like milk crates. to fricken by a trees.

I think green, crispy lights on his old milk crate.

It's a red dwarf set, isn't it?

It looks pretty good, actually.

I like that set.

Yeah, I really like that.

Bruce has made it all himself.

I can't have immortality, but I'll really do something with my old milk cream.

Also, do you like me out?

I changed.

Having all the metabulous crystals, but this time they're in red.

Yeah.

[1:18:21]

They look like jelly.

Sort of jelly.

Oh, well done.

Oh, girls are back in business.

They get to do something.

And so...

It's the only time he actually says that. 2nd time, yeah.

Second?

Okay, 2nd time in the whole history of the show.

Not counting when...

Can we just have a moment?

This is actually John's last appearance, is Doctor Who in the series?

That's true.

That's true.

That's a bit sort of awful, really.

But, you know, I think it's rather wonderful that he just kept making loads of appearances at events and fan videos, you know, he, you know, Patrick, of course, wanted to shops.

Patrick, of course, he just wanted to take off the costume.

Patrick wanted to take off. to no longer be recognised.

Whereas John everywhere he went.

It's like, are you doctor?

Yes, I am the doctor.

No, he slept in the costume.

Barangaroo.

[1:19:23]

That's bohearing.

At least you can go in the costume.

Okay, dark.

Dark.

That is dark.

I made this too much thing.

I was so sick of those simulator and salt nights.

I'm going to do with them.

He didn't make this.

He found this room, didn't he?

Yeah, he did.

He's pointing at it saying...

They're really ignorant of their own experience.

It's like this is made out of jabber light.

I did this.

I made this spot.

Oh no, he had to make those.

Yeah, he did.

Oh, he loves them too.

Oh it's a day pole.

It's far too accurate for a day ball.

The day Paul master has no crotch.

What?

Really?

Yes.

I'm not being happy about that.

Sorry, John.

No, seriously, like his legs go up and they, there's kind of a, just an empty triangle where a crop should be.

It's an it's a negative camel toe.

I don't know.

That doesn't look like it was really off-putting.

[1:20:25]

A good reaction, Todd's doing the point.

But do you know that his costume is based, again, mentioning, since I mentioned Joan Crawford.

Thank you.

This is why I mentioned Joker.

His costume is directly based on the Queens in Snow White.

I'll go with that.

The diadem, which is the correct name for that little crowny thing because, you know, we should know those sorts of things.

Really, he really is playing.

And she's behind the mirror portrait.

Yep, that's who it is.

Soon, freaking cruel.

We're about to see Pete do some possessed acting coming up.

So he's doing a nice version of it now too.

Yeah, yeah.

In fact, I think they've been.

I think they've been on all the coding in the time.

It's just like those two.

Oh, look. television.

It's wonderful, city.

But look at Pete.

He's possessed, but he looks just exactly like he does nearly every time the camera crashes into his face for a cliffhanger.

Yes.

It's a resting cliffhanger face there from P.

Now, these scenes were recorded before Pete's scenes, which is why Pete will now appear against black drapes because the other set hadn't been built yet.

[1:21:34]

There you are.

It's fine, but yeah, it's just it's just a little bit of TV.

The focus of the lens is very short, that's all.

And he really is having rest in Cliffhanger, basically, isn't he?

I love that John is so withdrawn in this, whereas the last time we saw these one. 5 together, they were, um, John was really chewing up the walls. because he was threatened.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was his show back then.

He's really, he's playing it less than...

Oh, we've brought back Magnus Greel's transmitter.

More more crazy things.

Nope, it really is.

And he's doing very careful foot acting because he can't look down.

Now, watch the brigadier in the background.

Everyone's frozen.

Oh, he hasn't frozen.

He's and now off. going to walk off.

I think it is just going to follow him.

Look at that.

So not an equity man.

Oh my goodness.

He's too old to do any of these paralysis nonsense acting.

I just love how Colin Labours is the costume designer, has used red.

[1:22:36]

Yes, beautiful.

Red and cream to tie together.

The doctors.

I really like Pertz Cozzi in this one.

Yeah.

With a little nod to Pete with the contrast piping on the ship.

Yeah, it's really cute.

And I think this is the 1st time we've seen the Hartnall costume and the trout and costume together in one shot and they really just kind of slight variations of each other.

So he's cleverly reimagined the Hartner one to make it more different, I think.

Well, no, but it was always more tailored.

Yeah, his was a kind of dishevelled version.

The Trouton was wearing a sort of dishevelled version of Hartnell's costume.

Yeah, yeah.

And that was the concept at the time.

That's why the clothes changed with the doctor.

It's like he's more dishevelled the clothes are more dishevelled.

I just love the way they're all working together.

Yeah, it's really nicely done.

What the hell are you people doing in my show?

That is a lovely look from Pete, though, when he walks over too.

Yeah, it really is, isn't it?

Your curtain rod of doom will not overpower espresso.

[1:23:38]

Oh, Patrick Trouton, you are wonderful in the background there.

He's so good.

He really, just by doing just simple Pat thing steals every damn scene he's in.

Pete's eyebrows are very delicate.

They are, aren't they?

Wispy and winsome.

He is like 30 years younger than everyone else on set.

This is true.

P times 72.

It's just a game of wrestling.

Donald Sinden.

No.

Richard Matthews.

No, no, I mean, but isn't Donald Sindon our latest wrestleon?

Oh, yes, yes, of course.

Timothy Dalton, Donaldson, and Donaldson didn't play...

Donaldson.

Donaldson.

Donaldson.

Yeah, because Donaldson...

He's dead.

And plus he's dead.

Timothy Dalton would have come back to play wrestle.

He just wasn't available.

Right.

You mean he wasn't asked?

No, he wasn't asked, but he wasn't available.

Oh, that would have been much more fun, I think.

Didn't, um...

I have a Toby jug, I'm sure.

[1:24:39]

That looks good.

The moustache and...

I liked him his wrestling.

It's an unusual choice I like that he's a steampunk bear.

I think he's appearing at Burning Man this year.

He's one man show.

I like that.

Yeah, it's it well, it's a triple take.

It is a triple take. with each of them doing it once.

But just the fact that the 1st doctor gets that moment.

He's the one who solves it.

Yeah, yeah.

And you think a lot of effort to someone who wasn't actually the original doctor, aren't they?

They really...

I'm quite surprised by that.

I'm actually surprised at how little genres had to do in this whole season.

That's a bit shocking.

He did get a lot to get to.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but he's the last well, this is his last TV appearance?

You know what?

Go on, put it on.

You are my wife now, dad.

I don't think John minded, because if John minded, he would have said.

And he would have, it would have been strange.

[1:25:40]

It's just a little bit more obvious.

Oh, it's Matches his pretty little cat.

This... was terrifying.

Oh, look how red their eyes are.

What's happening there?

You know, there's not a lot of moisture in that room.

And they are literally 3 actors standing behind that.

They're not.

They didn't even comp it in.

Oh.

So theatre.

Yeah, it's perfectly theatre done.

I love this too.

Yeah.

There's this thing where Latham turns around, but that's a different shot.

Yeah, you know, and he appears. nice, isn't it?

Um, there's a special feature on one of these discs discs called um, 5 Doctors one studio where it's mainly the studio session of this and you see how they did that looking scene.

And yeah, it's really well done.

Did they mention how everyone had been bonging on in those green rooms?

They were also bloodshot.

Oh, Pat.

Because it got, you know...

[1:26:40]

He enjoyed...

This makes no sense at all.

No, whatever.

There's a lovely head cannon bit where...

For the 4th doctor, his adventures just continued.

So we just catch up to him at the appropriate time.

Yeah, and, you know, sort of being time locked. he's not aware Yeah, this is sweet.

No, I don't need to deal with him.

I bloody wrestle on.

We talked about this when we were doing shada, remember, and how the continuity actually works.

I'll go back and listen to that.

So, yeah, the Tom Baker version of Shadow works with this original broadcast version.

Whereas the Paul McGann version works with the special edition.

Oh, really?

That's how annoying we live.

Yes, I turn off this podcast and walk slowly away from your iPhone, please.

This, I mean, this exchange between them, these 2 only get like 3 or 4 scenes together, but they re, like Herndel and Davison bounce really well off each other, really subtly, because you're right, Richard.

[1:27:46]

They both have that subtlety in their performance.

I like the Day Paul master figure.

The 2 in the background.

It's really nice.

From John.

It's really lovely.

Uncharacteristically generous of genre.

Yeah.

Well, he always had it in him.

It was just insecurity that brought it forward.

I love John so much.

I loved him as a little boy and there was a while I didn't really love him now too.

Look, all of them actually.

They're all brilliant.

Even Richard Herndle.

Richard Handel's terrific in this.

He really holds his own.

I actually quite like him being a bit more cheerful.

He is nothing like Hartnall, but that's quite nice characterisation.

He's more young Mr. Grace.

Oh, oh, look.

Isn't he wonderful?

Oh, there's two.

That's even more poignant now.

You think it's around this time that Janet decided nah.

I'm not.

I'm off, Janet.

You getting that impression you're standing there thinking, I'm looking at the other 2 and thinking, yeah, that's not going to be my future.

[1:28:49]

Yeah, well, she's only got what, 4 stories left?

No, I just thought, no, I'm not going to Carol Anne.

Oh, that's upsetting.

I always felt sad about this.

Yeah it is up soon.

No, this, Sarah.

She'll be back.

It's all right.

I know, but it's just like, she's so great.

Yeah, I think, did she work that out?

That's who he is?

And she says Biden.

Oh yeah, she's just messing up the tensors, I think.

I think...

School reunion kind of implies that she doesn't remember this.

Yes.

Well, I think they just kind of ignored it.

It was children of need.

Children in need.

It wasn't a proper Doctor Who night.

It's not Canada.

That's my thing is when people are taken out of time.

Yeah, they forget that these things happen.

Well, that's my interpretation.

No, that makes a lot of sense.

They remember vaguely some of the things, but they don't quite... remember the details.

Love the doctor, remember?

I think the latest one does.

Yeah, definitely.

He might remember he met himself, but he doesn't remember the specific details.

Otherwise, that's a continuity time.

Now, oh, here she is.

In the special.

[1:29:50]

I did love that.

Clicky finger. mince, mince.

No, they're just admirers.

That's her the Chance of Flavour Appreciation Society.

They just dress as guards and follow her around wherever she goes.

I always like the TARDIS going off. loved that.

And of course, they cut that out of the 95 though.

Well, no, it's in there, but they use the Casper the Friendly Ghost time scoop thing with the appropriate doctor's face in it.

Oh, yuck.

You know, it's equal parts yuck and kind of sweet.

No, I like the Titus.

I like this.

The look on his face.

I think it's well intentioned, but it is simple.

The full counsel.

She is the full, isn't she?

But the thing is, she says, it's my honour, again, to confer on you, the lord president.

I think she's Lord Usher from Gold Usher from...

Yeah, exactly.

She's Howard Lang.

Yes, and when we were really noxious fanboys, I do remember thinking there has to be a story in between these that we don't see.

[1:30:51]

Yeah.

No, I think she's Howard Lang.

Great acting here from Peter.

Yeah.

No, seriously, I think he's fabulous in it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's this conversation at the end, which I think is symptomatic.

This is where the show is now going to circle the drain. should have been the end of this style of show.

The where they say, where he says that's how it all started.

But he, the show doesn't start with him on the run from his, on from Gallifrey in Iraq at the old time.

No, but it starts with 2 school teachers creepily following a girl home from school.

You know, and the idea that this is a show about a gala frame from the constellation of Custurbus.

I've complained about it before.

I think it exemplifies it.

I take your point, but I think I think in the context of this story, that line works and it's beautiful.

I agree.

And they all get credited as the doctor now after only the credited as Doctor Who.

[1:31:55]

Doctor Who before?

Yeah.

And here's, yeah, all of our...

Would this have been the end of all of the list making and rebooting?

Just throwing.

Have you seen what's happening next story?

And we could have had, but I love the next story.

So 7.700000 viewers tuned into this.

Okay.

But the A team are on the opposite channel.

Well, I mean, that's going to be for the next couple of years, really.

But it is interesting that I actually thought they would have got over 9000000 for this compared to what's around, but there's only about 5 or 6 more episodes over the next 2 years that get in the 50s.

In fact, the next 2 get 51 and 52 on the chart.

So do you think this probably lifts, you know, like it's a new season, enough people have watched this that maybe there's a spike as a result of this?

No, I mean, this is in between seasons.

Mind you, it is only 2 months before Warriors of the Deep.

But I think it's enough to keep it in the public's mind, perhaps.

Yeah, as opposed to forgetting about it. looping back to the menu now, dear listener.

[1:33:00]

Yeah, so...

I, it's so, it's so very good.

It's much better than the 3 doctors.

I feel full.

Lots and lots of sticky, squidgy fudginess.

I love it, like despite...

Look, it was so joyous also, just to see these people on screen.

Yes, yes.

And to see, you didn't get to see them and there weren't videos.

That's how it was big.

I don't think it's a story in the same way that the 3 doctors is a story.

I think it's the children in need special with a lot of people doing coming in and doing their party pieces.

That's fine.

That's perfectly fine.

And I love it.

Like it's really enjoyable.

And, you know, 20 years after this, we'd get Day of the Doctor kind of distilling the 2 approaches of a story-based thing and a doctor-based thing.

Yeah, but I mean, the writing is just much more skilful than either of those.

I mean, this is Moffat and that's modern television. just better.

Yeah.

And budget wise and all the rest of it.

Yeah, this was that we were leisurely.

Yeah.

I do love the thing it kind of borrows.

[1:34:01]

Dave the Doctor kind of borrows from this is, you know, we commented, the doctors are doing a thing that, you know, you immediately recognise that, you know, John's driving his card out of that.

So what does the 10th doctor get to do?

He's seducing a historical celebrity because he thinks she's an alien monster.

Yes, that's the Russell T. Davis era.

I guess the only thing like, I always want to see more of the doctors together at times.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That's where big finish have been quite successful with their multi-doctor stories.

Very successful.

I love the light at the end.

Light at the end.

The 4 doctors.

The last episode of Sirens of Time.

Yeah, yeah, but...

I do wonder if the idea of a multi-doctor story would still be around if we hadn't had the 5 doctors.

Because, you know, the 3 doctors was kind of a one off, but then it became the thing you do at anniversary is divisible by a 10.

[1:35:02]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. because, you know, dimensions in time.

But it's always been a fan wish, isn't it?

Hasn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

Fans of sort of.

Gosh, Pat's so good in that.

I think I want to go back and rewatch all the entire Patrick Troughton era.

Yeah, let's do that.

We've got the sound thing out.

Right.

Well, I think it's getting close to sign off.

We will be back in 2 weeks with our 1st retro commentary, which is Doctor Who and the Keys of Mariners.

Your fault you voted for.

My fault for proposing it, I feel bad.

And also, if you jump on our Twitter account now, we've each put forward a Patrick Troughton story or we will have done. for you to vote on as well, which I think will release after season 21. alert, it's the crotons.

Something short.

It's the war game.

Do not put that up, please.

I love it, but I'm not 10 episodes.

Because people will vote for it now that you said that.

[1:36:03]

Until then, do check us out.

Just to see Todd's face gone. flight through entirety.com flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

Over on Bond Finger.

Now, it's a bit difficult because we're recording this so far in events, but I think our most recent commentary is octopussy and never say never again will be coming soon on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on on iTunes and Bond Fingercast on Twitter.

Gentlemen, any closing comments?

I think we're done.

I'm still wiping icing sugar off my face.

It's such a fun, enjoyable romp.

I just really love it It's my favourite, it's my favourite Pete up to this point. lovely.

Fantastic.

I haven't watched this for years and years.

I didn't actually, you know, when you get older and you go, you poo-pooh these things.

And then being able to see this again, it's actually just as lovely as I remember.

Alright.

Well, then, until next time, may none of your Joan Crawford lookalikes try to attain immortality through an old man's ring.

[1:37:06]

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

See you soon.

Ouch.