Is Icthar Okdel?

[00:30]

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back after an extended absence to Flight Through Entirety.

The only Doctor Who podcast who can teach you the value of using karate against pantomime sea monsters.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Nathan I've just discovered that my fingers fish fingers contain pantomime whores.

And we're back with season 21 and it's Warriors of the Deep.

I'm going to take a surprising role. in this conversation, because for once, I don't really like this story at all.

You don't?

Oh, I loved it at the time and I'm still quite fond of it and for many good reasons and some bad ones.

[01:31]

Actually, I have to say that I am a little bit more ambivalent.

I think we'll find ourselves in agreement over some of the good points.

What do you like about it, particularly?

I like that it goes against the conventions at the time and the conventions of Johnny Byrne the Writer, this being worries of the deepest being 1984.

This being pretty much the last Cold War story we get contemporaneous with issues and such like.

So there's 2 reasons I like this story, is the political nousiness of it at the time, that it was really on the edge, and that it goes against received wisdom that all bases under siege should now look like Ridley Scott's back bathroom out back of the potting shed and be dark and dank, because really, if it's, you know, I think the set was amazing, and it was Tony, what's his face, wasn't it, who did it?

Tony Burrows, I believe?

Yeah, because he took over from some bloke who was very quickly dismissed, so we won't mention his name.

And the fact that it was white and shiny and made of glossy milk crates, it looked stunning.

I think it still does.

And the jumpsuits are so 1984.

We said that, or I said at least that terminus was peak 80s, but I actually have to say that I think worries are the deep is peak 80s, particularly Preston's hair, and Tegan has the most terrifying hair.

[02:40]

Not since what was her name?

Madeline Sigri, we actually had such post-contemporaneous hair, haven't we?

It's a kind of, you know, like 30s film star thing. very glamorous.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's actually very 80s new romantic postmod, isn't it, with the island?

I like the boys are wearing eyeliner, do you think, by a small nod to the sand miner?

It certainly that was part of the Sand Mitres vision of the future in that makeup is not just for girls anymore.

Everyone's a bit Nance.

Yeah, and I have always loved the sets in this story.

I think what happened was some reference book called Interview, possibly, shared the fact that originally, this story was scripted to be dark and dank, and it's not exactly a forgotten base, but they've been down there a long time, but someone pointed out, hold on, we've got that further down the line on this prison in Resurrection of the Daleks.

We don't want to have too similar looking things.

Doctor Who not wanting to reuse sets.

What going on?

But they also have that rule from the BBC about illumination contrast.

So you weren't allowed to provide dark sex unless you were doing a Dickens.

[03:43]

I don't know why things were suspended for classics, but not for this because it's still the drama department.

I think it's shot on videotape in the studio and I think that, you know, the televisions of the time needed to read is on.

You can't actually have a very dark frame at all in Doctor Who at this time.

Yeah, I mean, the received wisdom is it should be in a submarine.

It should be dark and atmospheric, but it looks like a sort of cheap version of mission control from Space 1999.

But it doesn't look cheap at the time. don't think it looks cheap now.

It actually has more complexity in the Space 1999 set.

It just doesn't have the breadth and depth.

It doesn't have the size of it.

It doesn't have got the range.

I mean, it does have different levels.

Yeah, it's impressive.

I think there's a moment where Tegan throws someone against a wall or maybe Pete throws someone against a wall.

I can't quite remember it.

They get a wobbly.

It wobbles like nothing else.

But I remember being hugely impressed by the look of this show.

And even, I think, to some degree by the redesign of the monsters.

[04:46]

Do we want to go there yet?

Before we go there, talk about plotty things?

Well, I have one more thing to say about the corridors.

There's actually a bit, sort of, with the sea devils and soil orients advancing later.

Spoiler alert, there's solarins and sea devils in this, where everyone keeps walking past the same section of corridor.

Like the sea devils are going on one way and they're on level 4 and then pizza level 3, but it's the same bit of corridor because it's got the same lettering on it.

It wasn't pointed out to Lenny Henry did his sketch, but that came out after this, didn't it?

Do you remember Lenny Henry's send up at this Mr. Dawn French?

Yeah, yeah.

Run up and down the corridors.

Yeah, no one apparently no one had actually said it out loud.

Well, not unless they were within cloistered fan convention circles.

We've only just had conventions starting.

So this is only a year in to fandom or doctor, what we take for granted now as being how this show operates.

We're only 12 months into the new who, the new world, which is the constant interplay between the observing fan or, you know, the dedicated viewer and the production office.

[05:49]

We've had Levine go and play little notes on his spinet before in little high notes there, but, you know, usually intrusive things, you go, ah, what was that?

But now it's a full on symphonic orchestration of fan reported wisdom and reportage.

And whether that's a good thing or not, I think we'll discover as the next few seasons unfold.

That's actually similar to my experience because this season is the 1st season that I remember reading a kind of spoiler-free summary of what the stories were going to be in some magazine.

I seem to remember going Starburst.

Yeah, possibly Starburst.

I don't think it was DWN, but I did know going in what the stories were going to be in vaguely what the shape of the season was going to be. an extraordinary thing.

And I remember those, they were the pages that you really had to borrow your mum's hairdryer to get a part again, didn't they?

Because of the sweaty fingers, Brendan, that made them click together.

Stop it.

Yes, it was.

No, the excitement of knowing.

But it's kind of like rattling under your parents' bed before Christmas.

[06:50]

You shouldn't really know that kind of thing is going on before Father Christmas drops, don't you shoot?

You shouldn't know these things.

I mean, now it's the sort of thing that it takes a really special conscious effort to avoid.

Very much so.

But then it, you know, this was happening for the 1st time.

And I remember being really, really excited about this upcoming season.

Imagine going to school playingground and having people being surprised that Tom had regenerated last night.

That happened.

Yeah, whereas I think going in, I think we knew that this was Pete's last season and we knew that Colin was coming back for the last story of the season, which should turn out well.

Absolutely.

Is this your story?

I noticed that there's a certain polish to your vim today, so there's obviously the enthusiasm's really infecting us all right now.

What did you love the most about this wonderful stories?

Magnificent story.

Let's do it like just a minute. 60 seconds, no repetition, no deviation.

No circumspection. talk with any of those.

[07:51]

I do want to talk about what I think the big problem with the story is, can we do that?

Yes, please.

Yeah.

So I think the big problem with the story, and it's going to happen twice this year, is that Earthshock was such a stunning success last year, even though we didn't really like it. was hugely, wasn't it?

But viewers and fan thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And so essentially they're just remaking it with Silurians.

That's deliberate, isn't it?

That was the brief to Johnny Byrne.

Yeah, wasn't it?

Although he said he rehashed a Space 1979 group.

But I haven't been able to find what this story was in Space 1979.

No, they did bases under siege, did they?

Well, only that Minbai Salfa was in itself.

But, you know, like Christmas decoration spun off the tree.

So here, the Silurians are kind of cyborgy robot things, for some reason, they give them terrible electronic voices and like really terrible.

What do you mean?

Start about function.

That's kind of like a 70s Silurian.

[08:52]

Excellent, skim us.

Oh, God, that's true.

And Brendan did that beautifully with a red bike flashlight sellotape to his head.

What that frick is that?

It's all the rage in Fiji.

Yeah it is.

Yeah, so they've got flashing lights in their heads to make it clear.

Well, as we do, right?

Well, no one can see mine, but that's for another day.

So the original costume that I was like that hilarious light that could make John Pertwee Gurn on demand. you know what I mean?

Like, you could just turn it on someone.

But clearly no one's seen the show since then.

And so they use it just as a standard Dalek way of letting you know who's speaking.

I think everyone should have that in the iPod generation.

All these kids walking around with pods, you know, in their hands.

I think there should be something stapled to their foreheads as well.

So they're like a dialect eye piece.

Moffatt is ahead of the game again.

Not for identification, just a staple something.

Yeah, just to do that.

But it's like they've just looked at a photo of a Silurian and gone, oh, what's that middle I thought?

[09:53]

Well, it must flash when they talk.

Otherwise, how are you going to know?

I don't know, through movement or body language. possibly?

I think it's to visually separate them from Ingrid Pitt.

So you can tell a different place.

The lizard with the flashing light in its head.

That's the same...

We should name check Ms. Pitt, who plays what, Dr. Solo, who was cast up.

She was actually going to play Preston.

Did you know that?

She was going to play the Annie Lambert-esque kind of character.

He doesn't do anything but wander around and be depressed, which he runs a suburb in Melbourne.

She does run like a girl, but then so did Roger Moore, as we know.

And Peter actually, it has got a little bit of the expert.

No, since we've been doing Bondfinger.

Have you been noticing the crossover in Pete and Rogers performances?

I'd like to think they were informed by each other to some extent because Pete does run. a little bit like Rog.

Sorry, Pete, I know you're listening properly.

In terms of...

In terms of both Preston and Antaraward, this is another example of director Pennant Roberts.

Yes.

Can we get on?

Women enrol, which written for men?

[10:55]

And not changing a single line, like Man in the Sunmakers.

What are you doing, man?

That was great.

Can we do that?

In the script, the only role written as a woman, aside from Tegan, of course, was Karina.

Yeah.

And doesn't she get about the set in a pouty, terrible, discordant, tiresome way?

Something I actually really like.

I like the lawyers on the phone.

Sorry. like most of the human characters in this.

I actually had them very welcome, aren't they?

Yeah, the rounded, maybe?

And the relationship...

Are you saying no?

No.

Well, okay, the relationship between Maddox and Karina, for instance, they only get a few scenes together before spoiler alert.

He's forced to murder her.

Which is awful, can I say, just as a spoiler alert.

It is awful.

Well, the show is a massacre and probably that's...

But because of the way they've played those few scenes leading up to it.

And because of the way Martin Neal plays Maddox in that scene, you know, it's like he has no control over his body, but facially he is just furious at his own impotence in the situation.

[12:05]

If you look back to, say, robots of death, which is unquestionably a better story, and you compare Zelda to Karina.

Zelda has a lot more screen time, but I think Karina's death is a lot more effective.

Quite similar in so many ways to past stories.

I think the Maddox character is the only one that is actually properly rounded out and the most fragile character and also that what the hell is wrong with this story. single biggest creative choice, but we'll get onto that later.

What are you going to say?

There's a problem with bases under siege, and it's been a long while since we've recorded an episode, so I'm going to name check Sander. take a drink.

And he says that one of the problems with bases under siege that are poorly written is that the only real characteristics that any of the characters have is how well do they cope with a base under siege or what side are they on?

Like the only person here who has any personality or personal characteristics is Maddox, but everyone else is just a uniform, you know, to react to the monsters and maybe get killed.

[13:11]

And that's sort of boring, I think.

And it does mean just the endless deaths, like everyone gets killed one by one, you know, they're not really impactful.

There's scene after scene of people in corridors shooting guns at other people in rubber who are shooting guns at them.

It's like an Angela Lansbury murder she wrote.

Same damn thing.

It's like Agatha Christie is still writing in 1984.

You know who I think is the biggest letdown in terms of performance in this story?

Say Peter, go on.

It's Tom Adams.

Which one's he?

Oh, he's the hot seat.

He's Commander Vorsack.

And yes, he's hot.

And he's also a brilliant actor.

But in this, he's terrible.

What is he in?

Listeners of the podcast may remember him from the Latter-day Avengers episode Takeover, one of the best Tara King episodes, where he's a very good menacing villain.

He's played quite a few villains over the years and authority figures.

And he just seems a bit lost in this, really.

[14:12]

Everyone kind of holds up Beryl Reeders.

Beryl Reed didn't know what she was saying.

No, she didn't know what she was saying, but she knew the emotion of the scene.

I don't think Tom Adams does.

Yeah, well I think the whole thing's so underwritten, though, that there's not really much for him to do.

Can we talk about the villains?

Yes.

So we have, is it Ian?

I want to say Ian McCulloch.

Yeah, Ian McCulloch.

So Ian McCulloch was...

Not the one from Micko and the Barneyman.

No.

He was in Survivors.

He was in the first...

Was that tire?

Did you find that tiresome?

I did.

I've watched all of Survivors, and I have a medal to prove it.

So he's in the 1st 2 seasons before he gets sick of it and goes off to be replaced by Dennis Lil, more of whom next week.

You know, he was originally cast as Commander LoveSheck, whatever it was, really.

Yeah, Commander War show.

Yeah, it was.

Oh, and they decided to make him the villa.

Yeah, go forces.

Because Tom Adams, I've now remembered, was most famous for the Oneedin line.

Peter Gilmore as well.

In front bottom Zos off, whatever we're going to start with.

[15:15]

In 2 weeks time. where we'll be enraging Christopher Bidmead once more, I'm sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Fond listener of the podcast, as he is.

So Ian McCulloch was in Survivors, and he plays just a really, really terrible, obvious villain and his scenes with him and Solo where they're just both villainying at each other in the most kind of like us on this podcast.

Well, yeah, essentially.

And he's got the worst Trump...

Steady on Comova that I have ever seen on Doctor Who.

I mean, it's no wonder.

Doctor Who's always been pressing it.

It really has.

Well, also, I've been wondering who these 2 power blocks are because there's great bits.

I think even at one point Nielsen says we work for the power block opposed to this one.

It's like, yeah, we don't do names now.

It's very it's very Patrick McGuan, isn't it?

I like that.

You know, but we do all frock up.

I thought they were just a bit Eastern block because they always get the fashion a little bit wrong.

Well, and they're kind of doing the accent.

Certainly, Ingrid.

Ingrid Pitts.

Pitts always don't have very own accent.

[16:16]

She's always Alexandra in Josie and the pussycats.

She's always, you know, got her own take on the action.

So in terms of these 2 blocks, you know, obviously we have English characters and we have European, possibly Eastern European characters, so by that extension, you know, we think maybe Russia might be in this block.

So it's like, okay, so have Britain and Russia join forces in the future.

In that case, who's on the other side?

The kid running the missile command game on the huge Commodore 64 screen that they've got up on the, it is missile command.

Oh, it is Miss Holcombe.

On the BBC micro and hence terrible.

It's no games again, isn't it?

It's that 80s film.

I think the other side is being run by President Trump's head in a jar.

I actually think, no, I think it's New Zealand is one of the blocks.

Everyone else in the world is the other block.

So New Zealand is represented by the underwater reptilian races.

It's Zeus Pod, isn't it?

It's the Zeus pod power block versus the flight through entire.

[17:20]

Hey, we've got 42 to doomsday as well, guys.

I think that's definitely it.

And it's New Zealand that runs the base and everyone else is evil.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're going to wipe them out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That explains the fashion choices and odd hair, side ponies and scrunchy things.

There are good things to say about this show.

I think Janet gets to give it.

This is the thing.

Janet likes to complain that Pennant Roberts missed her out on Tencoke because her boobs were too big.

Every damn time you stick a microphone in front of a woman.

And I said, well, the microphone got near your mouth, so I don't really see what the problem with, you know, getting a script near your face is going to hurt you.

But anyway, love you, Janet.

But, but he just finished Tenco.

And that was lauded and applauded.

I remember it as a little boy.

It's one of the most powerful things I'd ever seen on TV.

And, you know, it's about a Japanese run in Southeast Asian internment for women.

And Louise Jemison is, of course, in it.

Stephanie, Stephanie Beach, Stephanie Cole from our favourite comedy radio podcast, Cabin Pressure, with Benedict Cummy Snatch, whatever his name is, and Roger Allen and people we love.

[18:26]

But, ba, ba, ba.

This was like he was riding high as one of the BBC's favourite directors.

So this was seen as the story to open a brand new post anniversary, Doctor Who.

Let's get the ratings right back up to the mid 70s.

And this story was seen as the one that would do it.

Johnny Byrne is a lauded international SF screenwriter seen from Space 1979, the biggest budget television program ever made in the UK up until bride's had revisited. which of course had just been on.

So big budget, big sets, big names.

This for Doctor Who is a big name cast.

It has some extraordinary choices, plus and minus.

John Nathan Turner made 2 choices for this one.

One was to include the market.

The other one was to have the drowning scene with the doctor, which for me at this age, and I think up to this point in the show's history is the most dramatic moment for the doctor, apart from a regeneration we've ever seen.

It looks harrowing.

It does look very good, and it is a big surprise to see them come into that set and have there be water at the bottom of it.

[19:30]

Like it's something that we haven't really seen before.

But it is done in a bit of a perfunctory way. you think so?

Well, not a surprising way.

He falls into the water until suddenly says...

And Turley says, he's dead.

No one can survive it in the water for more than sort of 5 seconds.

He must be dead.

The thing is, like, I'd always thought of everything as well, but I have looked into it.

You can hit the water and drown almost instantly from that height.

Right.

And I think it's the fact that he's looking down and it's still a bit melodramatic, especially seeing as he just seems to wake up in the water for no regular apparent reason 5 seconds later.

He was just having a little rest. before diving down and opening up that thing.

We should all mention it's actually Gareth Milne, as Pete owns.

Yeah.

A.A. Milnes, younger and unbeloved son, who was, yes, who was Eor in the books.

Right.

And a very abusive child.

I have to agree with you, Richard.

Janet is great in the story.

She is.

That's the point, is that, you know, I'm sorry, and we interrupt ourselves speaking as hello, listener, but Roberts was seen as a really terrific director.

[20:37]

It was a coup to get him back again.

You know, it's not Ron Jones, as we're going to later see in the season.

And the thing is, he really knows how to work with people as far as set pieces and drama.

Maybe not. as we'll get to with the action scenes of this, but he gets actors.

And yet, I don't know that we're actually getting that in this story, are we?

We get it from Janet, I would argue.

I think it's all too underwritten, there's nothing for any of the anchors to latch onto.

Pete is totally convincing.

Oh, yeah.

He does.

And I actually think he's had his best now.

He's really hit his stride.

You know, there's that great bit where he's holding the gun on Borschak and Borschak's like, well, what do we do now?

And the doctor goes, oh, okay, here's the gun.

See, you can trust me.

Gorgeous, isn't it?

It's such an Avengers moment too, yeah.

And I mean, something else I love in this story is Mark Strickson sort of runs around threatening people with a gun and then when they do what he wants, he's just like, oh, okay.

He's got a fantastic panicked way of holding a gun and he'll do it again in frontios.

But he's sort of lanky and the way he runs all sort of hunched over and uncoordinated and panicked.

[21:40]

Like, let's talk about Burlow.

Yes, please. the companions because I honestly think this is the tightest team we've had in the TARDIS for a long time.

Todd thinks it's the best regular cast of the 1980s.

You may be right, actually.

Although I still love the character of Nissa, and I, because I love Sarah Sutton, I don't think she was, we've covered this before.

Nissa was, to the 80s, what Susan was to the early 60s.

And I think later with Silv and Sophie, we're going to have a lot more of a sparky, bouncy...

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But for where we are now.

I think this is the best that we've had.

Yeah, absolutely.

Particularly since Janet's really on form, she gets to be sort of reasonably intelligent and proactive.

She's great in this.

There's even...

Look, I mean, I think this story is awash and magically...

But, you know, thematically, there's really not much going on here, except I think in episode four.

Pete has the choice to wipe out the Silurians and the sea devils using their hexachromite gas, which is conveniently set up for them in episode one.

[22:44]

We need to come back to that because that's entirely topical at the moment with toxic waste and water supplies.

Hexachromide is used for chromium plating of furniture, and it's one of the most toxic chemicals we have in the world.

It's causing problems in Australia.

It's caused massive problems with potable water supplies in the US or yeah, chromite 6.

So they were really onto a lot of things here.

So they use it to set up a moral dilemma where Pete has to decide essentially to gas everyone in order to save the world.

And Tegan thinks he should do it, but she's not bloodthirsty or vindictive.

She's not doing it because she wants to get the silurian.

She's doing it because she's made this moral calculus.

She's a white Australian from Brisbane.

Yeah, we kill stacks of things.

And Pete's reluctant to do it.

And I think that's all fairly underdeveloped and not that great, but it really is the closest thing that the story has to some kind of thematic content.

It's a bit of a cheat because they spend about 10 minutes with the doctor stumbling about saying, oh, you know, we have to find something else that'll do the same job and then they just don't.

[23:46]

And they go with the original choice anyway.

And they were never going to.

You're not introducing its Chekhovs, you know, hexochromite gas.

You're not going to introduce it in episode one, say that it kills reptiles in marine life, and then not use it to kill all the Silurians in episode four.

It's obviously set up that way.

So it's a foregone conclusion.

Yeah.

And I think there's something terrible about writing a story that puts the doctor in the position of gassing a whole bunch of people to save everyone.

And the fact that everyone is dead at the end of it except for the regular cast, and that, you know, Turlo shoots a silure in in the chest, you know, these blank range, the gun.

Brendan, everything Nathan's pointing out a SayWad rewrites of the burn screen.

Yeah, I'm not at all surprised to hear that because he wants to turn it into Earthshock, and he'll do it later on in the year with Resurrection of the Dale. of his own marriages, but it's okay.

Four words I never use often.

In Eric Saywood's defence.

Have a drink, listener. your 1st for the day.

At this point, Johnny Byrne was living in America and unavailable to perform rewrites.

[24:50]

And apparently the 1st set of scripts came in and episode one was under episode 3 and 4 were badly misstructured, and episode 2 was double length.

Right.

So he sort of had to crowbar it all in.

We also had big production problems in this.

Now, people might look at the mercury and say, that looks unfinished.

Do you want to know who is ultimately to blame for that?

I'd like to say Margaret Thatcher.

I'm going for Margaret Thatcher as well.

In the wake of the Falkland War, Margaret Thatcher called the snap election, which...

Yeah.

Which moved up production of worries of the deep by a week.

Matt Irvine had a lot to say, the FX guy on this, and I've had perhaps unfavourable things to say against Matt's work, but considering, how long did he actually have to do this?

he was a designer on this for, I think this is his 1st go at being able to be a designer and being in charge of the models, we get an ex-wing fighter as a Star Wars death satellite, one year into the Reagan plan. and it's made of Star Wars model.

Very squee when you're that age.

I think that the underwater base model is gorgeous.

[25:53]

Which is Ian Scoons, the submarine is beautiful.

It's so spy who loved me.

And on the DVD and I think it looks pretty good.

Sadly, it was dropped.

There's a deleted scene, CSO of Silurians walking along the seabed from their ship to the sea base.

And of course, it looks like 1980s Doctor Who's CSO, but it doesn't look any worse than any other Doctor Who ACSO.

I'll just say, because I'll figure something out.

Sorry, because I'll just forget, we're talking about the contemporaneity of the story and how it fits in.

I had 2 girls this year in class burst into tears in front of me, not of my own doing because they were sure that the bomb was going to drop.

This was still very much Cold War, and this is right on the money of Cold War.

This, in fact, I just like to say that Doctor Who started on the day of the Kennedy assassination.

It ended.

I think 4 weeks after the 1989 Destruction of the Berlin War.

Doctor Who was very much a part of Cold War history.

And this one really gets it.

[26:54]

I think more so than any of the 70s stories.

Yeah, I did write in my notes that the allegory is very thin, but the allegory is so thin because it's so pervasive.

Especially around this time of the Falklands and all the rest and with Reagan and Thatcher. we really did think that it was going to happen.

I think the big giveaway is when any story is set exactly a multiple of a 100 years.

Very Jerry Anderson.

And this is the 1st colour story set in the 21st century verbatim that we know it's the 21st century.

I quite like the fact that at the beginning of the story.

We get a little bit of an info dump from the doctor saying to her, you've decided you want to stay with us.

Oh God, the info dumps.

But it's really sweet that this and the next couple of stories all start with pretty much Tegan wants to go somewhere, so they're going there.

Oh, Tegan wants to see a bit of her future.

And I love how the doctor and Turlo are both just slightly disdainful, but oh, it's earth again.

Getting back to something we were talking about earlier.

I actually really like Tara Warders Preston.

[27:54]

I think, you know, she doesn't have much character written into a dialogue, but she does a lot of great reactions to things facially.

Like when she wanders into the TARDIS, she's just like, check through there.

I think it's another one of those cases where 2 guards go in and you only ever see one come out.

So he's off chatting with the Earthshock Cyberman somewhere that's still in there.

Oh, can be on here.

Oh, he's Chameleon. right. have to figure out.

We have to figure out this season who Chameleon is in every story.

It's some skip it. but I... skip this.

Yeah, come on.

Yeah, the 1st episode of this story is all the solar ins and sea-based personnel telling each other their own names. you noticed?

Yeah, but there is a huge amount of that among the Silurians and the sea devils.

The 2nd one is Dawn French.

It's a little portly as well.

I do love with Preston and Turlow in the cell at the other end where Turlow was refusing to go off and help Tegan.

So he and Preston stick behind for a little while and then they go into, and every time Turlo tries to lift her into the shaft, she keeps, but Turlo and carrying on a conversation while he's trying to.

[28:56]

It's a nice bit of comedy that is rarely for the 80s, actually really well played and really sweet, and Turlow just chucks a complete tantrum. think he's really good.

I think he's really good.

I did write in my notes.

It feels like the 3 regulars have been airdropped in from a far better show. interesting.

So I want to talk Silurians again. we do that?

Wibblewobble.

Can you do the voice?

Excellent Nathan.

So they're terrible.

Partly the production problem that you alluded to, Brendan, is part of the reason.

So the Lurians frequently don't have their head masks tucked into the back of their costume properly and adjust your dress before leaving, do listener.

And the sea devils.

And this was always a problem in the 70s as well, had kind of floppy heads that weren't on quite right.

So look, I mean, I think that they sign urine costumes are probably better designed than the original Silurian costumes, but they don't put them on properly.

[29:58]

And I think the sea devils look terrible and they miss their little fins and they miss their...

They missed their little fins.

Yeah, their string vests.

Where were they?

feel very sad about that.

But I guess I think the worst thing about them is that this is really the heyday of the Doctor Who Monster book.

No one has seen the Silurians.

No one has seen the sea devils, least of all the people writing the story.

They don't know what's unique or important about them.

They were people who had a claim to the planet.

It didn't quite work out in the cellularians because they basically wanted to poison everyone and stuff, you know, pretty quickly.

That's right.

But every piece of continuity that gets mentioned is wrong.

Yes, you know, completely wrong.

Like twice before we offered the hand to friendship.

What, like that time you nicked submarines?

No, no, it was that time when we tried to infect everyone in our, our bones station.

Like, that's not what happened.

Why do the Silurians suddenly have battle cruises that Pete recognises?

Why does he know what the mercury is?

[30:58]

And is Ikta Ogdell?

Like, who, like, well, the theory in the discount...

Say this to your parents at Christmas, dear listeners, just find out.

Watch your reaction.

One day meant for men will turn to each other and say, easy.

Tell young men out there are dying for it, yeah.

In the discontinuity guy, they raise the fact that when the solar ins say twice we offer the hand of friendship.

It like, well, you can slightly twist the Silurians to be that because one of them was saying, yeah, let's make peace.

And no one in the sea devil says that for longer than about 2 minutes.

Because the masters there to kind of be evil all over them.

There's a theory that there's a 3rd story and I think that's where friend of the podcast, Gary Russell's novel, The Scales of Injustice, which is a very, very good book.

Yeah, so that's kind of how that slots in slightly if you squint.

It is nice that you can drop Trouton into this story and shoot it on monochrome and it is a 60, everyone would have to react differently because it'd be Trouton, but it's a 60 story.

[32:02]

I think Pete is the most trout nest.

Very much so. brings it back, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's the panic and the running.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he does the run.

And when I say run, he name drops when I see run.

And of course, oh, I need a minor distraction.

I'm going to set a reactor to overload.

And punch a bunch of people.

I think Trouton would have done that.

Kicked me in the face.

Really?

Really?

You know, my notes, my audio notes for this story have exactly that.

Actually, it just leads to another wonderful character moment from Mark Strickson when Turlow's court.

And the thing is, the doctor's not around, so he's not trying to butter the doctor up, and he has that wonderful line of, if the doctor had meant the reactor to be disabled, it would be lying in pieces at your feet.

It's more of that sort of clunky macho crap that say what is so famous for writing.

I think it works for Turlo because Turlo is still in the stage where he really admires the doctor, but he'll never tell him so.

With such bad dialogue, though. you'll get no cooperation from me, Si, you're in or whatever.

[33:06]

That is the line of...

So bad.

Yeah, I'd like to think that's not Johnny Burn.

No, no, I'm sure that's a word. the sort of thing that say would rise.

He would never have written that for Tara King, would he?

No, that's right.

I think another big problem with the monsters, and I really don't understand why this is.

If you look at the original costumes for the Silurians and the sea devils, the actors are incredibly mobile for wearing a monster suit.

The sea devils are running around in the original story.

And that.

Not in the shooting person, however.

Well, that's the thing.

In this, it seems like they've made the costumes out of far thicker material.

Johnny Byrne sort of envisaged that the Silurians were the officers and the sea devils were the infantry and he imagined them as a commando unit in samurai inspired armour, which is why Solvix has that silly hat.

But his idea was, you know, they would be able to run.

And suddenly they're practically encased in foam rubber mattresses, or, you know, as it is on this sea base, a door.

[34:12]

No, they're terrible.

I mean, they really are just ridiculous.

Gary Gillett has this expression, squabbling rubber, which is whenever...

He always has one of eyes.

I seen him, you know.

Doctor Who aliens talking to one another.

Have you seen have you seen his title on his on his blog that he had back in 15 years ago that his favourite things were Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and Group 6?

A lot of things to love about Gary Gillett.

Oh, yes, I see.

Yeah, squabbling rubber is a collection of Gary Gillett's wonderful DVD reviews from Doctor Who magazine.

Oh, okay.

Which were the reason they're pretty much the whole reason I used to buy Doctor Who magazine.

Yeah.

So they just look ridiculous.

Like there are people in ill-fitting, badly applied rubber outfits, walking around very slowly to invade this base.

And the Silurians look like they're smiling at everyone.

That's the thing.

They've got the Venus from Fireball X or 5 puppet.

You know, they're so peeled out and it's not the 60s anymore.

It's just this.

Well, they've got big dilated eyes.

[35:13]

Yeah, something. very, actually, yes.

There's a lot of Jerry Anderson in this isn't there?

Yeah, and the reveal of them is terrible.

The Solurians and the sea devils are just revealed in a standard mid-shot, you know, there's no sort of...

Robert shoots like he's still in the 50s, yeah.

Yeah.

The weird thing is, like, a lot of people give Penn Roberts crap, but Face of Evil looked fine.

Some makers looked good.

Pirate Planet looked good.

Like Pirate Planet did have the reveal of the captain.

You saw him from behind and then he turned full face into the camera and that was really effective.

Roberts rises to a better script.

I think I think it might be partially that.

I think also he was a bit frustrated and disillusioned by being pulled up a week with the pain.

Yeah, he's not a technical guy.

He's an actor's director. old school.

I think he's better on location than he is in the studio as well.

That too.

And we do have a studio bound story with maybe 3 minutes of pre-filmed work.

Oh, and I suppose the water tank stuff.

So maybe 5 minutes of pre-film stuff, whereas most stories get, what, 10, maybe even 15 if you're lucky.

[36:13]

It's not a bad story.

And it has its...

It has its character moments.

I really like Maddox, so I really like Karina.

I like bits of Preston.

Her hair mostly.

Her hair mostly.

But you've got a very talented guest cast. a very experienced guest cast and those 3 people I mentioned. aren't super experienced.

They haven't led shows before.

The people who have led shows and led movies, Tom Adams and Ingrid Pitt, are pretty terrible.

Ian McCulloch.

And yeah, well, he's so bloody terribly forgettable, you know.

I think they all did their best under duress, but in the end, it comes up to what that line that Dame Edman used to use a lot.

Poised.

Are they poised?

But there are real flaws in the plot, and we just get fan wank, winge, is that why have you got someone who's really unsuited for the role to be the only person with a plug-in, and the only person who can also, you've got to plug into him to get the AM radio out and listen to the outside world or indeed communicate.

[37:19]

Why does that have to go through their missile operator?

Why have you only got one missile operator on the base?

Well, I mean, the idea was that the previous missile operator was sneakily killed by Ingrid Pitt probably before the story opened.

There was no inquiry or was there an inquiry?

Yeah.

Look, I think the problem with it is that it's a clunky macho remake of Earthshock, it's...

Camp macho remake, which should mean that we'd love it.

Well, if it had Beryl Reed in it, that would improve it enormously.

Yeah, that's true.

But it's nasty and everyone is killed.

Yeah, it's awful.

And, you know, like more aliens with green pus coming out of their eyes when they die, you know, there's just an unpleasantness to it.

You know, a sea devil shoots someone in the face.

All of those people get electrocuted and lower themselves gently to the ground.

You know, it's unpleasant and it's a place the Doctor Who is now going to mine.

[38:21]

This is what Doctor Who thinks it's about.

And so gone is sort of whimsical tea time entertainment.

And instead, what you get is really poorly staged and fairly cheaply realised remakes of aliens.

Yeah, I mean, even if you look back at the story that immediately springs to mind, like what story is like this in the 70s is horror of Fang Rock.

Yep.

But even if you look back at that, you have that beautiful scene where Adelaide and Leila discuss honouring traditions, but also honouring and listening to science.

The equivalent of that in this is the aforementioned comedy, and I suppose comedy padding scene of Turlo and Preston in the cell, which is enjoyable when it's a moment of lightness, but it doesn't have the same poignancy of Leila saying there are better ways in science and Adelaide being momentarily changed before she's horribly murdered.

Well, I mean, I think that Horror Fang Rock is like a haunted house horror film where people are being picked off one by one and it's being terrifying.

[39:24]

But what it doesn't have is endless scenes of people firing guns at one another.

And that's not terror.

There's just a kind of bleak nastiness to this.

And I think it's entirely Saywood's fault and it's just going to get worse and worse over the rest of the season and next season.

Yeah, it is.

I don't remember Burns scripts on any of the other shows we've mentioned being this bleak.

Yeah, people of Trarkan has hardly any guns in it at all.

Got a hell of a lot of frock, though.

Yeah, I mean, even in stuff for Space 1999, you might have had a couple of deaths, but you still have your main cast of 8 who are alive at the end.

And also Space 1999 with deaths there, the characters mourn and discuss the death. deaths.

Here, so many of the deaths are just uncommented on.

Like Preston is shot and Tegan reacts for a moment, but then they've got a job to do, you know.

It actually plays into Tegan's moral dilemma thing.

[40:25]

Doesn't she say let's not let her death be vain?

But it turns out one person does actually survive this story, which is Buick, because he's the one switching on the gas down in the thing.

Oh, that's all right.

Does the doctor, Tegan and Turlo, just bugger off and leave him to explain why there's all these dead people and lizards hanging about the place?

and turtles?

And can I also just say the sea devils as a combat force have worse name than Stormtroopers?

Like when they're killing Nielsen, he's literally stumbling around on the spot, he's moving no more than 2 feet laterally and they still take about 7 shots to kill him.

And again, that's just nastiness.

We blind Nielsen and then watch him get repeatedly shot until he falls over.

Like, why is this painting?

Eric Saywood, why is this happening?

A biography from milk publishing.

Didn't the audience figures reflect that what it went from?

I do a todd moment.

It went from 7600000 in the UK to 6.5 for the last episode.

It's not really goodness me.

The appreciation index actually didn't fluctuate that much.

[41:26]

It's 65, 64, 62, and 65.

So, um...

Mind you, by the end of the season, it will have dropped 5 points, I'll be hovering around 60.

So, circling the drain.

We've done very well to only circumnavigate the Nerka.

Well, we're leaving Buellik behind to explain the deaths of his superiors and inferiors as we are jet off into space to visit Tegan's grandfather 100 years ago.

Until next week, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes, where you can also leave a review for us, and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

Over on Bondfinger, we have recently put up the wonderful commentary for a slightly less wonderful film, Never Say Never Again, and we'll be...

[42:38]

We'll be back, we'll be back on Bondfinger in a few weeks as well, with Roger Moore's Swan song, A View to a Kill.

You can find all those on bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes.

Again, you can leave a review.

And Bond finger cast on Twitter.

Until next week, may none of your sea monsters leave green paint on your plastic uniform.

Thank you very much for listening a good night.

Good night.

Good everyone.

That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

This episode is Ikta Ogdell, was recorded on 19th of November 2016.

The next episode will be released on the 27th of November.

If you'd like an exciting new job in ICT with plenty of room for advancement and all the hexachroma you can eat, check out the listings for sync operators at LinkedIn.co.nzand.

Warriors of the Deep. 19th November.

[43:41]

Yes, go ahead, Richard.

Yes.

Yes, it's fine.

Cool.

I audible?

You are audible?

Yes.

Yes.

I'll be home.

We're on.

It's been so long, I think.

No, we've done podcasts.

We put the television on.

Richard, could you just hold your microphone a bit further up?

Actually, on the shaft, microphone, move your hand up.

Can that be the out?

I'm just getting some rubbing on my end.

Oh, yeah.

What did I say?

All staying.

It's like a carry on filming by five-year-olds.

I'm sure I said that before.

That's tautology, really.

Eat more cake.

Right.