The Demeter Seed Game

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety. The only Doctor Who podcast whose syllogism merely requires its grim conclusion. I'm Brandon. I'm Nathan I'm Todd. And do we know what a syllogism is? Would you like to explain to the listeners at home? So you have 2 sort of statements that are logically connected that lead to the truth of a 3rd statement. So all men are mortal. Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal. Elephant to pink. Nelly is an elephant, therefore Nelly is pink. Exactly. Well, in this case, our facts are that we are a Doctor Who podcast we have covered every story to date up to an including mind warp. So the grim conclusion is it means it's time for terror of the vervoids. Right, what can I just say? A few things at this point. No. Oh thank you. One, the Bogus Megarian did not switch on his translator. Two. I'd never been to Stella Stora. You're obviously confusing me with someone else. Three. Compliments. are undergoing a change. You should see the faces, dear listener. Because it was on a previous time, the doctor's path crossed mine. I find myself in a web of mayhem and intrigue. You know, I really like the line about the guy being pushed into the pulverizer and in my book, that's murder. And of course, when exactly does Edwards want Mel to break her neck? I never realised that like at the end of that cliffhanger, until it was pointed out by the commentary or whatever it was, that he's obviously going to murder people and do things, but you know, he gets killed first. There is a slightly more innocent interpretation of that sentence which is we don't want you breaking your neck, at least not until you're not my responsibility. I think he was being cute and funny there. Yeah, yeah, cute. It's funny by taking her down a Darkened Dally and talking about breaking her neck. Is he a member of Gamer Gate or something? He is charming. So Todd, I think he might be pinpointing a really horrific flaw in not only this story, but in fact, the rest of the trial. Well, that is written by Pip and Jane Baker. Terrible, terrible dialogue He's not signing on as a martyr yet you know. I'm not going to completely diss this story. Okay. I have alluded to the fact before that I really have not liked this. And if I watch it in isolation, I probably give it about a 6.5 out of 10. But when I find that I actually watch it after Mind Warp, I actually give it a bit more, like 7.one, I actually enjoy it more than mine more, perhaps because of its simplicity. But I do find it's like this deck of cards that has been set up you know, with different beats along the way. And you just have to flick one of the cards and that whole premise just falls apart. I mean, I have to give some kudos to Pip and Jane Baker that they asked to come in and write this after, you know, other writers fail to be able to deliver a script or or at least, you know, other writers fail to deliver a script that Eric Saywood was prepared to go with. Okay, yeah, that's fair enough. I think that you've identified something good about the shift in tone at this and it's commented on in the trial where the Valiant asks the doctor, is his defence that he improves. And it is, you know, very definitely, we've had a horrifically cynical story that exemplifies all of the horrible things that have gone on in this era, particularly with the mistreatment of Perry, but also with that just, say, would adolescent cynicism that's plagued the story for quite some time. And this is actually a real relief from that. Yeah, I think that's what I get when I get to it. It is a relief from that oppression. And so he's not around because he's quit. Now, this was filmed 4th after the ultimate faux episodes 13 and 14, which, of course, led to Eric leaving as script editor. As you alluded to, they had horrible troubles filling this slot in the season. So initially they thought they could have 2 connected 2 part stories using the same sets, much like the Ark and Space and Revenge of the Cybermen. Or the Ark. Or the Ark, indeed. Who are the writers? The writers were David Halliwell and Jack Trevor story. So both completely new to Doctor Who. David Halliwell came up with full scripts. They do exist for a two-part story called Attack of the Mind, which dealt with the Freds and the Penelopeians. The Freds are tunnelling Rodent Society, and the Penelopeans are these beautiful people and who say they're under attack from the Freds, but actually they're using their psychic powers to attack the Freds, and the doctor and Mel barely escape having caused a civil war. So it was another piece of prosecution from the valiard. The 2nd coming, which, as the title suggests, was meant to be the doctor coming back, there's not much known about it because Jack Trevor Story, the writer, according to Eric Saywood, couldn't get his head around writing for Doctor Who and would just get fixated on just images. Like, sort of Eric would say to him, like, okay, what are you considering? And he'd say, I'm considering a man playing a saxophone in a gasometer. And Eric would say, and the story? Yeah, well, that's coming, you know. So that got rejected. So, Eric thought, let's go with an experienced writer and approached Christopher Hamilton Bitmead. Didn't he just say no? No, no, he came up with an idea called The Last Adventure, also known as Pinacophica, which was to be set in a museum of key times and places within history. And again, full scripts of that were written. But Eric didn't reject it by talking to Bidmead. Eric said to John Nathan Turner, this is boring and unuseable. Bid me then contacted the production office a month later to say to John, I haven't heard from Eric. Now, the next story to be commissioned for this slot was Paradise 5, which one of the missing audios. Yeah, which due to the unavailability of Bonnie Langford, they adapted instead with Nicola Bryant. And that's quite good. It's written by P.J. Hammond of Sapphire and Steel and Torchwood fame. You know, it's not brilliant. It shares some similarities with this. But the creatures in there could never have been realised. No, they were sort of chariubs who could speak. So with all of those falling through, they turned to Pip and Jane Baker to write this story very quickly, as you've said, Todd, and also with John Nathan Turner script editing rather than Eric Saywood, because Eric Saywood had left and was just about to do his tell all interview. Did say would commission Pip and Jane Baker or did that all happen after he left? No, I think he commissioned them because I think the scripts came in and he just, that was it. Yeah, he just kind of went, yeah, all right. regardless of what else he may have thought, he did also know they were a pair of safe hands. And it is a competent script and it does do some things, you know that don't happen in this era. I've complained that these stories are always set in underground space tunnels that all look the same to Perry and that sort of nasty, cynical things happen. You know, they set up this world and then just have the doctor run around being captured and menaced and escaping and that kind of thing and nothing really happens. Whereas this story develops a bit and it does have a mystery and like various different things happen. I just love your face as you're describing this because it's like you're screwing up your face going, ooh, you know? Yeah, look, I don't think it's great, and it's certainly not inventive. I guess the best analogue from a previous story is robots of death where you've got people on a confined luxury vessel being picked off one by one. Here, it's a little bit more diffuse because you've got Raj, and you've got Howard, and you've got Lasky, and you've got the Megarians, you know, you've got a whole bunch of people who all want to take over the ship for one reason or another. So it's not particularly clear, but it does mean that a bunch of different things go on. And so it's not just a sort of linear capturing and escaping plot. In fact, it's not really that at all. Like the doctor doesn't get captured at all. Mel gets knocked out. once, but essentially they're given free run of the ship and they get to find out what's going on. They investigate things. And then given the free run of the ship, because the doctor has met Tonka Travers. What a name. his old friend. And it's one thing that I absolutely detest in Doctor Who when we meet an old friend. And he's also met Mr. Hallett, who he describes as being, he admired him or some such thing. And unfortunately because of the casting of the most pathetic actor. You just kind of think, why is the doctor, why does the doctor admire this man? Because he's just he's just a cretin? See, for once, I don't have a problem with, you know, the doctor running into old friends because we already know that this is at some point in his future. And as you said last week, Nathan, it gives us gaps in the doctor's timeline where we can imagine this has happened. And I don't know. I think possibly also because of the relationship between the doctor and Travers, it does feel like 2 people who've met before you know, it's not the people of Carfell saying, oh, doctor, you know, you came here several generations ago, but there's no chemistry between anyone. Because Colin is now in full-blown, cuddly Colin mode, you know he's lovely and he's sweet and he's silly and Travers is just like I don't want you on my ship. For God's sake, why are you here? Like Michael Craig is playing at Lake Judith Lucy, and it's rather fabulous. I think the relationship between the 2 is good. I think I agree with Todd, that having the doctor made 2 old friends is incredibly lazy, and we did see that in the pretend season 23 that never happened, which was just lousy with the doctor meeting old friends in sort of every story. But it does give us a bit of shorthand. You know, it's the psychic paper for this episode. It's why he doesn't have to prove himself to the authorities. And the relationship between him and Michael Craig's character is pretty good. It is, actually. I do like the way they play against each other. I do think Michael Craig, however, does have this thing where you take an actor from a real-life setting and put him into a science fiction show and he has to deliver lines in a stilted sort of way. So I actually don't particularly think he's great. He, of course, start in the ABC TV series GP after this. He was great in that. But he's in a real world situation like on earth, not in a fake spaceship. But having said all of that, you know, as much as I criticising, I actually do like him. Whereas the actor playing Hellot or Mr. Grenville is so pathetic. And there's an outtake which you can never unsee. So people go and watch them. You know, he's just spoken to Mr. Kimber. Mr. Kimber's revealed that he's actually, you know, was an investigator. And this outtake, oh my goodness, he walks into his cabin, sits down, bumps his hand on his knee, as if annoyed, then he has to think about what he's going to do next, so he takes a pistol grip to his chin and sort of scratches his chin, and then he gets a bright idea, and he clicks his fingers and gets up and walks out. It is so, so pathetic and it is one of the best decisions in this story not to include that scene. I like how he's got a sort of slightly northern accent. And so when his dresses are Megarian, he's a Megarian with a slightly northern accent as well, which is quite good. Alert. Alert. See, the thing that does my head in with this whole story is the fact that it's in the future. And so the Matrix can just extrapolate all this. Well, in the Deadly Assassin, they do say that they use the Matrix to extrapolate possible futures. just don't buy it. That underlining premise just doesn't sit well with me. Well, I mean, it is kind of stupid. Imagine that this is a real trial, presumably during the recess. Colin's gone and just watched a whole bunch of his future stories and has picked the best one. And so he'll leave here knowing all about going to happen. doesn't pick the Marion conspiracy. He doesn't pick arrangements for war. I mean honestly. Is he the one doctor? But there's another problem here, which is that what seems to happen is that the doctor actually seems to successfully defend himself and his defence isn't that in all of the prosecution evidence he was actually doing the right thing. He's intervened to make that point from time to time during those stories. But here, it's played as if he actually delivers a decisive blow on the prosecution, when we see Travers asking for him to solve the problem. And he says, you know, I'm explicitly asked for help, and then and only then do I intervene, and the Inquisitor says, yes, uh, and that's irrefutable evidence, Valeyard. And so all he has to prove is on this one occasion, like his interference was asked for. And that just doesn't make any sense. And then it's the genocide thing that comes in that gets him in trouble again, but it almost is meant to look, and it's too ineptly done to actually sort of come off. But it looks like the script is saying that the doctors actually won the case at that and then it's derailed by the genocide thing. But isn't the genocide thing just in the next story, just then dismissed? Aren't you forgetting about article seven? Like, isn't it isn't it the case with all of all of these stories that we're going to forget about the secrets? We going to forget about Perry's death. We going to forget about the genocide. It's just like we get to a and then it's like reset button. Yeah. So it's not one big giant 14 episode epic at all. It is just business as usual with some trial scenes thrown in. And the trial scenes at this point do really start to detract from the story. And it's probably going to come as a surprise to no one listening that this is my favourite story of the season. What was your favourite story last season? Mark of the Rani. And is it for the same reason? It's Pip and Jane Baker, write fun, Doctor Who. It's not necessarily sophisticated by any means, but it's fun reliable Doctor Who with the beginning, middle, and end. There's clearly defined characters. And in all 3 of their Doctor Who stories, and I suppose we can say 3.5 really. They do rely on the series mythos, you know, they've got time lords and they've got old friends of the doctor and what have you but it never feels as leaden as when other writers do it for some reason. Now, I think it's possibly because as you say, Nathan, when they do it, it's it's right to shorthand. It's saying, you know, the reason doctor can ingratiate himself in this situation. not going to spend 20 minutes of him doing it, is because he knows the captain of this ship. And yeah, it is a convenience that 2 old friends of the doctor happen to be on the same ship at the same time. I won't deny that for a second. But, You know what? I never noticed that convenience until you mentioned it just now Todd, and I think it's possible because the story just breezes along at a clip. You know, we don't have to wait 25 minutes for the doctor and Mel to arrive in the story. They're there right at the beginning, getting in amongst it. And I quite like the doctors. perceived reluctance to get involved. You know, he's still getting involved, but it means also that Mel who, as we don't have an introduction story for her, this is her introduction story. She gets involved in the investigation and she's coming to the doctor and saying, well, this is what I think is going on. She's taking a proactive role. The screaming at this stage is not a character problem. You know, she screams in understandable situations except for the cliffhanger to episode nine, which is just bloody ridiculous. Like, he screams in the right key. So that the closing sting fits. Yeah, like, I think Mel's screams are far more effective in the last episode when they're just little yelps of fear, like because she is surrounded by killer plant monsters in a dark room, you know, it's like that's an understandable thing, but the kind of sustain a scream note for 5 seconds. I don't blame Bonnie for this. I don't even think I really blame Chris Clough. I think this was coming from JNT. Oh yeah, no, it very definitely was. Do you remember the sort of publicity around Bonnie Langford when she was 1st cast where she was presented as a return to the companions from the 60s who screamed? And she doesn't play it like Victoria at all? You know, she's much more plucky, she's much more brave. I really like Bonnie Langford. I think she's really good. I like her character a lot. I think she's overly stagey here and it is a problem that will continue. She's a bit too presentational and she's playing it as kind of children's television. She's not playing it naturalistically. And that is compounded by the terrible artificiality of the dialogue that she's given, that makes it worse. But, you know, at least she's not being menaced by anyone and her relationship with Colin is not antagonistic, it's nice. I agree with a lot of what you've just said. I can't fault Bonnie's enthusiasm and the way in which she throws herself into the role during her time on the show, but she is very stagey. And I think it's heightened here because the doctor has to take a backseat, right? And so the companion has to be the one driving it. So it's sort of heightened a bit more. Yeah, and there is times when she does drop it back a bit. in this but I love her relationship with the Colin Baker doctor. Like I actually think they work for me, they work, they work. Whereas next year I think it does become a problem in the 1st 8 episodes where she's like 150% full throttle and that really undermines things. And it's a shame that it takes so long for the character of Mel to actually get onto earth. Yeah. Because you've mentioned this before, that when we do get to Delton Man and she's on Earth. There's a more naturalistic performance there. But we're going to get 12, 14 episodes of that children's acting and that for me becomes a problem. At the moment, it's not. The other thing too is, you know, there's a character called Janet in this, the stewardess. And unfortunately, the actress passed away a few years ago from cancer, but she's so natural in her performance. And with Colin, she has little scenes with Colin, very few, but there's just this, there's just this wonderful moments with them. And it's sort of like when I watch it. I mean, yeah, melon the doctor's great, right? I go, why couldn't you have come with the doctor? Yeah. My favourite moment with Janet in this, it is such a little tiny moment, it's when Grenville slash Hallet has been killed. And Kimba says, I recognise him, remember? And you come to Janet and she actually shakes her head. It's like, I'm not going to remember that tiny little thing. You know, I attend to all these needs on the cruise ship. And it just makes her a real character. You know, very often in Agatha Christie's because this was inspired by Murder on the Orient Express, um, and then there were none, et cetera. Very often in Agatha Christie stories, characters will remember tiny little details which you wouldn't remember as a real person and it makes her a real person, and that bit at the end where the ship's under siege, and when it's over, she just sort of cuddles up to one of the security guards. You're right, Todd. She is such a naturalistic, likeable character. And it's kind of weird because she's not given anymore to do than say, Madame Katrona, who was fabulous last week, and we just didn't get around to mentioning her, and she was fabulous. But Janet makes more of an impact just by sort of inhabiting a reality within her world. She plays it real, whereas I think other people in this production and I've talked about, you know, Michael Craig play it like, well we're acting on a spaceship. Yeah, you know, a sheet entertainment set. Yeah, where she actually does play it real. And that relationship with the 6th doctor, which I think is just lovely. And Colin is, as you said, is never more cuddly than he is here. I think there's a lightness of touch. There's the whole going down the wrong corridor, sort of thing. I will say this, however, this is my least favourite look for him in his entire time of the show, that hideous, hideous waistcoat with that awful yellow bow tie, and then his hair is never as long as it is red. It just looks dreadful. And then the director chooses to put him and Bonnie Langford against a green screen thing in space. So you get all that fringing around their curly hair. How are you doing? Yeah, I mean, this is another Doctor Who episode where the model shots are done on video because they've spent all the money at the beginning of the season on the trial spaceship. they don't look good. They don't look good. But that being said, I do like the tracking shot into the lounge at the beginning where you see the side of the ship and then it comes up into the lounge. And I like the idea of that green screen looking out the observation dome. The fringing, as you say, Todd, is a problem. They have cleaned it up slightly for the DVD. And the heads up display on the bridge where it was great. The black hole of Tartarus and all that, that looks quite good. And they actually need it for a plot thing because we need to see that Bruckner is driving the ship into the black hole. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, it's supposed to be this luxury liner is that correct? It looks really cheap and tacky, like with the chairs and the really small cabins that don't seem to look out into anywhere. Like, I just find it looks really cheap. There's a sort of deco thing, which is kind of looking at murder on the Art Express. So I think the problem was... lighting? The lighting's a problem, but I also think just the complete lack of extras. Yeah, yeah, seem to be, you know, maybe 5 people on this. Oh, especially when the Mogarians or whoever does that voiceover thing saying stay in your cabins. How convenient. Which is bizarre because the scene where Grenville Hallett slips into the Hydroponics Bay, there's about 10 technicians there who you think just put them in some other costumes and have them sitting in the back of shots just to fill out the space. Yeah, I mean, the doctor wanders into the gym at one and it's empty and he wanders into the lounge at one and it's completely empty. I mean, the ship is largely deserted. See, I have a problem with the gym set. Oh, it's really cheap and tactic. terrible, you know? But I like the hydroponics, but, you know, there's things like well, you've got these creatures in these pods, but you're going to booby trap the whole thing, sort of explodes, and they're released, and then you've got this assistant who's obviously, you know, infected, but it undermines, I don't know, the security guard and the captain, like, these are the things that annoy me about it. Then when you start to think about these things. It's sort of like it's all artificially created so that we can get to certain cliffhangers and certain beats in the plot. But when you pull it apart, I find that it falls apart in certain aspects. And that's what I, that's a continuing problem that I will have with Pip and Jane Baker's scripts from this point on. Speaking of cliffhangers, one cliffhanger in this story, I particularly hate and it could have been really good. It's like, okay, so they use that display on the ship to show that the ship is headed into the black hole of Tartarus. Okay, that's the cliffhanger. Okay, no, no, we're getting a really good shot of Bruckner's face looking in awe at the black hole. That's the cliffhanger. Oh, no, no, we're back out in the corridor now. And it has to be a close-up of Colin Baker saying, your colleague is aiming this ship into the black hole of Tartarus. It's like, we did not need that. A terrible, terrible cliffhanger too, because that seems like 2 minutes long. Like they just come in and it just gives Colin the chance to turn what could have been a visual threat into word peril. You know, we're standing in a corridor. I love the delivery of that line into the black hole of Tartarus. It cuts to Laski's face and she goes, whatever. And then it should go to Cliffhanger if we're going to be in the corridor, but it has to come back to him. And it's like when they find the mutant, like they open it up. Mel screams and then it zooms in on Colin's face. It's like, are you thinking about this people? Just the reveal of the mutant would be enough? Yeah, yeah. Colin screaming? Well, Colin's face is covered by a gas mask. You do like when everything explodes in episode one and she screams. Yeah, I think that is a good cliffhanger. that coming out. Something that has often been raised about the story is, you know Lasky says, oh, you know, the verboids are designed to be servants and they don't need food and blah, blah. And it's like, why give them a bloody deadly sting then? But she does have a line. It's sort of an aside, so it's often overlooked. She does have a line where she says something must have gone wrong with the DNA profile. So some mutation has happened, which allows them to be aggressive and it's implied and not, it should be more explicitly stated, but it's implied that's Dolan's work. But the thing is this, to me, it's sort of like, they're so paranoid about everything down there in these things getting out right? Does that mean they've actually hatched one before? Like, to me, it's sort of like they've actually had to deal with a real vervoid, because would they then actually know that it's actually going to be successful? Yeah, Brugner knows too, that once the vervoids escape, everyone's in terrible danger. Yeah, so maybe she does know they have a stinger. I think that they've just read Day of the Triffords and they know that genetically engineered plants inevitably rise up and wipe out all of human civilisation. You know, I think, come to think of it, I think that's another thing I like about Pip and Jane Baker stories is that they take the David Whittaker approach if they take a scientific idea and construct a story around it. So for Marco the Rani, it was the idea that an amoral scientist would see humanity is just walking piles of chemicals. In this story, it was because in their research they found out that plants and humans had at that point recently been revealed to share some of the same hormones. So what would that work include? Later on in time in the Rani, it's the idea of a cerebral mass changing time, you know, and it gets a bit more esoteric. Oh, and strange matter. And strange matter. Because that was only recently discovered. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, they, unlike, say timelash, you know, timelash has science fiction ideas, but it's not about taking real recognisable science, copyright, Christopher Hamilton, Bidmead and turning it into science fiction. Now, we, of course, have spoken about Brian Blessed as the big guest star last week and Joan Sims 2 weeks beforehand. Of course, this time we have honour Blackman. I actually really like her in this. I think it's a bit thankless and it is a bit wasted. Like, it's kind of overcasting, isn't it? But she, I mean, she is so brilliantly fabulous in Goldfinger. Like, she must be one of the best Bond girls in the history of the show until that roll in the hay, which is, you know, deeply insulting and kind of embarrassing on all sorts of levels. She's, you know, a cut above everyone else when it comes to actual acting. She has a class about it. I think she's got it written into her contract that this is my best side of my face. At some point she gets knocked out or killed. Like you have to show this part of it. I think people need to play the Demeter seat game. where she's in the lounge in pink and then somebody will come up to her and say well, there's a problem. Go and check the hydroponics, have a Demeter seed. Then she's in her purple outfit in the gym. Somebody interrupts her, oh, quick go and check the isolation room have a Demeter seat. Then she's had it allowed in her pink outfit, reading something and something happens to me to see. Then she's back into the gym again. It's very funny if you actually watch. There's a couple instances where that doesn't happen. But throughout the whole thing, I just kind of go, okay, she's there, she's there. all the way through. And in fact, she does hate having her routine interrupted, doesn't she? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, a routine seems to be, you know, a bit of reading and then the gym. And that's that seems to be her routine and let her minions sort of worry about everything else, which is quite fabulous and quite funny. And she's got that wonderful scene with the doctor and Mel with the Demeter seed in the lounge, which I really do like. And that's something that we've done before where the doctor's companion is much better at dealing with people than the doctor is but the doctor thinks he's better. You know, like Mary and Tom in the pirate planet. And I think that that's terrifically good. I like her relationship with Colin. I think that's really funny. And the great thing about that Demeter seed scene is the men in the scene are completely locked out by the women having a scientific conversation. It's really great. And then, of course, you know, when Raj finally turns up, Lasky's like, oh, what do you want? And it's actually the doctor who jumps through his face. You said for him. This is your fault. You know, they're things that I don't particularly like. Like you talked about the key, like, you know, in the dialogue. The key 6 is, no, it's key 9, your luggage is, like, I mean... How does she get in? Yeah, yeah. If it's the wrong key handed she get in. And then, you know, we put old towels in a bucket and we're just going to put them into a furnace, like, you know, you know, so Mel's going to be put into furnaces. Everything, like, it just seems like a complete waste of, you know rather than washing it or whatever. just right down there. Like, do you know what I'm saying? When you start to think about it, that makes no sense. Yeah, I mean, why couldn't the line earlier have been, whoever was in that bucket has been thrown into the washing machine and give it a solid rinse ticket in my book, that's murder. Things like that just drive me up the wall. I think too, there's something really kind of childish about the 6 and 9 thing. you know, and it's like the McGarian who doesn't switch on his translator, which goes on for about 15 minutes, that scene, and it's not, you don't have to be that smart, you know? Sign posted in episode one when, you know, Janet encounters a Megarian and doesn't switch on his translator. Like, I mean, that's the thing I have with this, is the fact that I find that it is pitched very childish, which, you know, fair enough, but when I watch it, I just kind of think, okay, didn't switch it on. Oh, Rudge, she's up to something. This is a complete slide plot just so that we have an episode three. you know how we don't. And then so when the doctor actually vocalises that, you know, this is just a sideshow, well, I go, yes, it's just a side plot to continue the story for an extra episode. Whereas in other Doctor Who's, there are side plots that do that but you don't think that as that happens. Yeah, it's not a sign person. I think, though, you know, what could have happened is the doctor could have been locked up for episode 3 to prevent us from getting to the resolution. That's peaky. That's pizza, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least the story develops and there's a series of different threats, which aren't related to one another, but, you know, are reasonably interesting. But I think it is TV written by kind of dumb people who think they're being smart. And obviously that's really clear in all of the dialogue. You know, the way that words are used, like big words are unnecessarily used and make everyone sound sort of terribly artificial. Is your study of all 1980s, Doctor Who's so antidiluvian? Yeah, the antediluvian and the brown study and all of that sort of stuff, which is just like hanging a lampshade on the fact that no one talks normally, everyone sort of speaks in these sort of stupid, stupid, abstruse, weird, rare words. Here's the question. We call them vervoids. Why? I think there's a kind of plant called vervain. and that's what they're named after. But yeah, no, I don't know. Are you making that up? No, that's a real thing. It's a real thing. Kelly Ann Conway told me. They also apparently slightly look like volvers but I wouldn't know. Oh yeah, well, it's a great tradition of Doctor Who monsters that look somewhat rude. I never understood. No, I still don't really wonder why that is. I think they look like cauliflower. With the sort of Banksia for a mouth. But it's quite funny because they, you know, when they do their gas out of their, whatever. And there's a little bit that comes out sometimes. And then other times when people are in showers and stuff, it's like they've farted rather than... something like stacks and stacks of it. Do you know what I'm saying? Like when you watch it, you kind of go... it's just a little bit coming out and then all of a sudden it's like... And then, of course, when Mel covers her mouth, it's like, oh, God that's... I would have been eating. You know, a sign from old man from the state of decay. What do we think of the verbo performances? I think they're hilarious. We are doing splendidly. for the next 30 minutes, at least. And they come out speaking English and knowing who everyone is. Do you know what I mean? They know Professor Lasky. Yeah, yes, we know who you are. Yeah, yeah. They're actually a bit terrifying when they actually do confront everybody in a group, like in the corridor and drag them back to that. Yeah, I think that's quite good. And I think Mel's best reaction is when she sees that compost heap. And it does the thing that was kind of promised with Collins doctor where he's alien and has different values because he interprets that as the vervoids following instinct and compares it to the compost heat that Mel had at home. And that's a true way of looking at it, but a different way from how Mel's looking at it, but he still respects her feelings enough to comfort her. And her reaction to that, her being upset, I think, is well played. I think that whenever she's given a proper emotional reaction to things, even though her tendency is to overplay things. I think that that's when she's at her best. One of the things Eric Saywood says in the various interviews he has on these discs is that, you know, he was against her casting but he wrote a specific circular logic scene for her and Colin to play, and they did it as an audition, and he actually says that he was actually quite surprised at how, like, she actually did it well, and he actually says this could work. actually admits to that. Yeah, it was a big problem because, of course, she was a famous child actor in the Just William TV series where she played Violet Elizabeth Bott, who was always going to scream and scream and scream until she was sick or something like that. And so she grew up being kind of hated on television. And then there's that terrible kind of Noel coward line about her in that play, which let's not repeat it. But I might link to it in the show. No, no, no. I think we're going to. So she was in a play with an elephant. No, no, I think it was just a horse. There was a horse on stage. Oh, right. And the horse defecated on stage. And Noel Coward said that the 2 biggest problems in the play could have been solved by kind of inserting the child actor into the horse. Oh my lord, which is really horrible. And I mean, I love Bonnie Langford. I just think she's terrific. And she's all funny. It is really funny. But I think she's lovely in the show. It's unfortunate that her 1st what, 14 episodes or something or 1st 10 episodes are written by Pip and Jane Baker. So that's a big problem for establishing her character. But I think she's really plucky. She's likeable. She has some advantages over Perry in that they don't have the antagonistic relationship. She's not constantly being threatened in a sort of sexual way. She's never sexualised in the way that Perry is. And since the show's been on. She's just been lovely, you know, afterwards. Yeah, I mean, she's now in EastEnders and she's absolutely killing it in the role there. And her stuff on audio is just amazing. Like, they get the character and she's given light and shade and um, in this, one of the things that I have a problem with is that I don't know if it's in this story. they say that she's a computer programmer or whatever, which I never buy. Because the 1st scene she's to do with health and fitness. And it's sort of like I could buy her as like owner of the gym or personal trainer or something like that. referencing Colin's weight in that way in the show, I think, is a mistake in that scene. I mean, they play it for last, but I don't think it really worked. It's not fun And then she's in the gym all the time in this. So it just leads me to that she's a fitness fanatic, you know? The problem with her being a computer programmer is they don't get anyone to write or edit the scripts who knows anything about computers. Because, you know, the few references we get to computers over her tenure are written by Pip and Jane Baker. And the whole megabyte modem thing. They do explain that in the making of as Mel is wrong when she says it's a megabyte modem, but the idea of the megabyte modem was cutting edge technology then, and there was a fear it could be used in the Cold War, et cetera. So if she sees a piece of advanced technology, she's going to think it's that, and they both say, as it's realised on screen, a box with flashing lights, it's a stupid line. Well, I mean, it's kind of a stupid line. Is there really a megabyte modem? It just sounds like 2 words to do with computers that have been smushed together. She doesn't strike you as a real person at all, really. And that is a problem. Yeah. Yeah. So other people in this cast. We've got Rudge. Yep. And Doland and Bruckner? I think they're all reasonably competent at times. Yeah, I think Brookner can sell that cliffhanger to episode 3 and going slightly crazier as things go along. He was Stimson in the leisure hive. Yes, that's right. Doland, I think, is pretty good. He was quite terrifying in one of the English House of Cards miniseries. He's pretty good in that. I think he's okay. He underplays it here. I think he has to because he's supposed to be the villain. But I think that's hilarious because, like, you know, when the Mogarians get their deadly coffee, both he and Janet are not there. What's Janet doing? Is she filing her nails? like, you know, what's going on? Because, you know, I reckon she could have been the mastermind of this whole thing. That would have been hilarious. We did not ask for refreshment. Yeah, I think Pip and Jane are trying to create a red herring where we think it's. I kind of hope that she was going to be the sister of the poor mutant girl and she's after revenge on everyone. being the poor stewardess as well. Yo, that's the thing. At the end of the story, she and the Commodore, who, of course, has his arm injury, wander off into the dark shadows, then she kills him. Speaking of dark shadows, you know, in the bits of the ducting with the vervoids in their compost peep. Again, we've turned the lights down. So there's a contrast between the bright lights of the cruise ship public areas, which would be brightly lit, and the dim light of the ventilation shaft, and it's not like a Star Trek ventilation shaft where everything's neat and tidy and in metal tubes. like well, no, this is behind the scenes of a consumer area. So, you know, it's not a complete mess, but it's utilitarian. And then we get the sort of emergency red lighting in the conclusion, which also looks great, and the sets look really good under that, and it does look scary. I think that those whole sequences are great. And when they use the v, what is it? Viennesium. Oh, yes, another wonderful rare metal. It's probably the most valuable substance in the universe actually. After that substance that was found on the floor of silicone. Of 2 twins, plates. or Maconite. or zanium. That's right on J3. I was going somewhere. methane. But, you know, it's really quite gravel. Why do I have to put up with this? But it's really quite haunting, you know, all of, and they're dying as well, I think is pretty good. There is that shot of the fake doctor's hand with the with the leaf, you know? I don't know, that leaf should blow away. It shouldn't sort of vanish. The whole point of it is it's autumn. You know, they do that great colour thing where the vervoids change colour and they just do that on the video. And the idea is, uh, and it's a very Pip and Jane idea, it's kind of trying to be smart and scientific, but not quite coming off, but the idea that they accelerate the life cycle and it goes from spring to summer to autumn and they all die. And the music kind of sells it as a sad moment. At that point. Like some of the music is very clunky, you know, in the 1st scenes like, you know, they're bang, bang. Well, it's Malcolm Cline. Yeah, so Malcolm Clark did twin dilemma. You did attack of the Cymon, did you? He did attack assignment and he had a bad tendency in attack of the cybermen to underline all of the jokes. So to do a little comedy sting when something funny happened, and he does do that here, and that's kind of embarrassing. Oh, yes, is that that sort of panpipe music that you do-doo-doo thing. Yeah, it's not quite that, but at certain times when the doctor says some really pathetic jokes, like, don't throw a talent meal or whatever, then there's a little... happy moment. Do you know, I hate the line. I wish I could get rid of my waste as easily. Because I never read it as W-A-I-S-T. Oh, clearly what it's meant to be. I always read it as W-A-S-T-E, and it's kind of like, couldn't you just nip off to the loo, Colin? Like, really? Sorry, he wants to go in a bucket. to go down to the furnace or whatever it's called. Choking in a furnace. The pulverizer. Is it a pulverizer? It's like a moment out of... Sorry, Galaxy Quest, you know, where she's going, who puts these chompy things in? We've got the pulverizer this week. Can I like the iris thing? I think that's. Yeah, it's really well done. Now, rating. Ratings Mel debuts to 5.2 million. Yeah, I thought that she would probably get a lot of people in because she is famous. This is big casting, isn't it? Then it drops down to 4.6. Then we're back up to 5.3 and I think 5.2 for the final episode. So, you know, it's the one it's the one story that does rate above 5 million, but it's still all 85 to 93, you know, we're still in that sort of sort of range. I mean, next week it's going to drop down to 4.4. Figure that out for the penultimate episode. I think the penultimate episode, spoiler alert for next week might be the strongest episode of the, not the strongest story, but the strongest single episode. It's always the way, isn't it? that often really great strong doctor episodes don't rate as much. And then the next week, because the final episode of season will get 5.6. suddenly like then the one after gets the viewers in to see something that perhaps is not quite as good as what they missed the previous week. But look, you know, I came into this expecting to really dislike it. Like with all the, we've discussed all of its sports and they're all there and I consider Pip and Jane Baker scripts to be like colouring in books with, you know, you've got all, it's all cenciled out with all the numbers, then you've just got to get your, your crayon and, and, you know, fill it in, right? And sometimes I go in the lines and I do a really great job and other times it's like, I've just scribbled over everything. And so I actually quite enjoyed this after doing my head in the previous story. There's banal dialogue. There's situations that don't make sense. There's some poor direction, but there's some good performances. I think Colin's just lovely throughout the entire thing. Bonnie's really in there giving it an all. Lasky's fabulous. I love Janet. The Commodore works. I don't particularly like a lot of the costumes, been these jumpsuits and those shoulder paddy things. I think you like them, don't you? Well, I don't necessarily like them. They're not necessarily something like cosplay in, but I like that. There's a design aesthetic in this universe. And the crew of the ship have uniforms whose lines reflect the casual wear of the society. Like if you look at military uniforms in our world, they're based around formal attire in the civilian world. So the sort of having the mid-chest panel, which is a common feature in all the costumes, or most of the costumes, and then having a similar mid-chest panel on the crew uniforms, it's just a subtle little thing that makes the world feel connected, and it's not just, let's put everyone in curtains like in time lash. That's why I like them. I also love Mr. Kimba. Any show with Mr. Kimberley? against bonus points. Arthur Hewitt? Arthur Hewlett. I'll have to show you this. He's in a very early episode of The Avengers, along with Ortron from The Monster of Palette. Oh, no, they would have been really young. I would say Frank Gatliff is in his 40s and Kimber looks like he's in his 50s and that's 20 years before things. He's Steed's boss in that one story. Because he was in state of decay, wasn't he? Yes, he was Calmar. No, he's charming in this. He's lovely. So, you know, when he dies. I really feel sad at that point. Yeah, Janet's reaction is great. Yeah, yeah. Janet's reaction's really good. it's really terrific. Look, I like season 23 more than season 22. I'm kind of glad that the miserable cynicism of the Sabred era is now over. I don't think this is very good, but it's pleasant and brightly coloured and reasonably enjoyable and it is Colin's doctor looking really horrific, but actually being really rather lovely and playing to Colin's strengths as an actor, I think. And I'm just going to say this coming from me. You know, I love season 22. I love I love the friction and I love all that. Had this been his doctor from day one, maybe things might have played out very differently. I think they would have done. I think you're absolutely right. And that is possibly the reason that this is my favourite Colin Baker story. I agree, there's nothing particularly groundbreaking about it. Not only is it kind of standard Doctor Who tropes. It's standard Agatha Christie tropes in there as well. And even then, you know, when Doland is revealed as the murderer. It's actually not terribly clear. I think because Malcolm Tierney's performance is very good, but because he's so understated, that moment is understated as well. As a kid, I never realised he was the murderer. But to me, as a kid, who was the murderer didn't matter because there was monsters. So I think also it fulfils the Doctor Who brief of, you know, it works on different levels for kids and adults. But yet, it's just Colin is clearly really enjoying himself, that comes across in the performance. He has immediate and great chemistry with Bonnie. The rest of the cast seem to be enjoying themselves on a black man has said later that while she enjoyed herself on it, she felt that the BBC weren't giving the show the support that it used to have and she was right. Michael Craig had was told off by the director several times because whenever he fired his gun, he'd go, and they had to explain to him, no, Michael, we do that in post. Oh, sorry, I'm just so excited. Like, he was really happy to be in it. It's nice to hear. Yeah, so it seems to be sort of a callback to those early Peter Davidson days where when the guest cars talk about it, they're like, oh, you know, we were in Doctor Who and we were having such a fun time. Doctor Who is starting to be fun again. That's why I love this one so much. Well, dear listener, we've been charged with genocide, so we're going to come back next week, but it had just all that swept onto the rug, because, I don't know, we've paid no tax or something. It's the ultimate foe next week, so do come back for that. In the meantime, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter. Don't forget, you can vote in our Tom Baker commentary, and the 4 options are the hand of fear, the sun makers, the stones of blood and the horns of Nymon. You can find a link to the poll in the show notes, and also at flightthroughentirety.sexy to see what James Bond was up to at roughly the same time as this, or maybe about a year later, check out Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter, where we are currently slumming it with Timothy Dalton. Until next week, may none of you forget that you're not supposed to be able to have oxygen, so why are you drinking a water-based beverage? Thank you very much for listening a good night. Good night. See you soon. That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley, and Brendan Jones. theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. This episode, the Demeter seed game, was recorded on the 1st of April 2017. The next episode will be released on the 21st of May. Fans of the Doctor Who cookbook will also enjoy the vegetarian cookbook we've just released at Flight 3 Entirety Press, including recipes for smashed vervoid on toast, Varga primavera, and lush aggressive Musaka. Now, what's my line? I'm surprised that you didn't say anything really rude about slumming it with Timothy Dolson. I've already been a sexual predator enough about Timothy Dalton, I think. Just formulating a line. This is Colin's last story. This is the last one he filmed. Yeah. Finally, they get it right for him. So unfair. Like, you know, he, he, he's given so much and he's tried, The character's changed. He's really, you know, he doesn't deserve the treatment that he got. Yeah, he's responded to all the criticism. gone above and beyond because it's not his job to fix, you know, and yeah, he. They just don't want the show and they just don't want the show. Yeah, there are times when I can hardly blame them. Yeah, well, yeah, but they make decisions to ensure that they just don't want the show. Yeah, yeah.