Past Master at the Double Commentary

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who commentary podcast whose keyword is respect. Black cotton gloves will be worn at all times, and there will be no drinking, swearing, or smoking of herbal mixture in the presence of the commentary. Anyone who breaks these rules inadvertently or deliberately between now and the end of the episode, we'll find themselves scrubbing out the preparation room for the next month with a toothbrush. Understood? I'm Nathan. I'm James I'm Todd. I'm Peter, and I'm an acrylic Henry Hoover, full of Evelyn Waugh's awful offerings for this one. Well, so here's the background. This is another of our commentary podcast. In July 2017, just 2 years ago, we asked you to vote on 4 possible stories for this commentary. As if it was yesterday. So it was the mark of the Rani, the mysterious planet, terror of the vervoids, and revelation of the Daleks. And the winner, Richard's Choice, again, with 45% of the vote was Revelation of the Dialect. So we've got our DVD ready to go. We're on the main menu with sort of play all selected, and we'll press the play button when you next hear me say the code word spielsnape. Okay, I'm going to lean over and... many safe words being given away. He's for free, no extra charge. Wow. Imagine using the word spielsnape in a sort of intimate. that a safe word? James and I have never had to use our safe words, have you? What the same safe word? All right. We share a flex. Okay, we're ready to go. And I'm going to press Spielsnape. And we're off. So I'm going to play a drinking game with your listeners for this episode. I'd like to know what the revelation is. So every time you hear me say, that's a revelation or some variation, you need to take a drink. Ah, see, I always just assumed that we had genesis of the Daleks which is the 1st book of the Bible, and then we had resurrection which happened somewhere in the middle, I think, from memory. And then we have Revelation. So we're just, we're... I'm very disappointed we've missed out on the Leviticans of the... Leviticus of the numbers of the Dale. Luke of the Dale. Yeah, 1st Corinthians of the Daleks. Alright. So here is who's our director, Peter? Graham Hopper. Because it, I was going to say it's one of the best openings since Pat Trouton landed on a beach. It just has, doesn't that feel atmospheric? And doesn't it look cold? That's a revelation. Don't you? Just warming you up. Don't you think that he is desperate to recreate Caves of Androzani? It is the same opening? Yeah, yep. So a photographer of a distant planet than the 2 of them sort of wandering out and talking, but also just the complexity of the world. One of the things that we've said about Sayward is while he might not be great, he's kind of capable of recognising things that are great. And so a mashup of Ks of Andrazani, which is brilliant and evil laws, Evelyn was the loved one, you know, also brilliant. This doesn't feel like, like our standard take on, say, what does it when you think back to what we've thought in the past. I think both those stories are great. Yeah Well, I think... I remember saying... I remember saying that that was the best of the, of, say it scripts. I think this one easily is his best script. Have we all watched our season 19 box? Have we unearthed out and opened down? Oh, I know it pretty well. The earth shock one does hold up quite well, doesn't it? I love the score. Love bit of earth, love the direction. and I like the pace and I like the writing. I think, I think if we had just done that that once, we, I would be happier about it, but given that we then remake it every 6 months afterwards until, say, we decides to go away. Could you not say that of Evelyn Wars, bright young things period? I guess so. The mutant thing has just taken the nut roast role. Is that what it is? Yes. Oh, and it just exploded. You know, you don't have those. That's a revelation. deadly. So, um, the mutant is, of course, played by Sir Lawrence Olivier. It's actually played by someone called Ken Barker, who I've never heard of. He does great job. But wasn't there some talk? Yes, JNT wanted Sir Lawrence, who I think it had become known to him. would be interested in role on the show and said, okay, we've got to have a character that's all on location. So I know what. We've got this character who comes out and rolls around in the snow with the doctor and goes, ah, let's offering to Sir Lawrence which they did, and Sir Lawrence politely declined. That's insane because I would have thought it would have been much better to offer him the role of the father in the glass Dalek. You know, that to me would be much more logical. Anything involving heavy makeup. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's just such an outlandish idea. I've got a great role for you so, Lawrence. Can you drool? Tell me, Larry, darling. Can you drool? It's famous miserable bastard. here he is Very own Clive Swift. Uh, a.k.a. Richard. I didn't know you were in Doctor Who, Richard. This is I'm glamorous. Still a black bulb. for this story. I wonder where that will lead us. This opening scene is marvellous, the way it sets up the world pulling right back from the sarcophagus up the top, introduces all the characters. And we have Colin Spall as well, don't we? Is he lilt? lilt. And he will be, he was in our, um, Sigment 2 parter in series two. So one of Graham Harper's old school friends, I think we decided. Didn't Brendan say that? It was like, um, it was like Graham Harper only an actor. I think this is one of the few 80 stories. It looks like it's had a tone meeting. Yeah, things on board. Do you think there's been a crisis of consciousness for this one? I think Scram Harper. Tot and Peter. they've looked at it and said, hm, this season has been, um, because they were getting responses, weren't they? already that the media had been... Look, it hadn't been negative for the season, had it? Not overall, but it, yeah, it had quieted. So we've already had the announcement that it won't be back next year. That happens during the 2 doctors. So we already know that, but everything's in the can by that point. And, you know, the more I think about season 22. Like, I don't like it very much, but it does seem to be trying to do something a bit different. And I think it's something that's a little bit ill advised. But here, there's a sort of fantasy world thing so that the grossness of it isn't. I mean, it's our 3rd story with cannibalism in it for the season. She's collecting things. That's a revelation. I've never seen her do that before. First time ever. Sorry to interrupt you. She's decided to be a botanist. Yes. What did you say? Hey, I'll give Eric so good credit for this. He hasn't forgotten the roots of the character. Oh, please. But he gets it right, doesn't he? He gets the relationship between the doctor and Perry Wright, and it's probably the only time this season. It is, it's better, isn't it? It is. It's played with humour. So they're kind of sniping at each other like an old married couple, but in the end, they do like each other. And there's a number of times in this story where they meet. Revelation. Who knew Jenny Thomason was playing a dual role? I'm not going to that day, spa. That's a really, really strong chemical peel. So he will drool on Colin in a minute. So do keep an eye out. I'm having real Joan Plough, right? You know, everyone's going to just get changed. up for anything. But yes, I mean, they actually get the relationship right. And there's a number of times in this story where the doctor and Perry catch up and the 1st thing they say to each other is, are you all right? And, you know, I was worried about you. It kind of works. Yeah. Yeah. I think people generally sort of say that that kicks in at Mysterious Planet, but I think you're right to kind of locate it earlier. It is kind of the worst thing about Perry, isn't it? That, you know, in every story, including this one, she is just being manhandled by men, um, and dragged around and stuff, and, and in fact, the character of the, um, DJ is a nice relief from that. He doesn't, he's not lusting after her at all. They wanted to play the DJ. So Lawrence Olivier? Jenny Thomasson? Roger Daltry. Me too. They did. That's right. Again, politely decline. From his palatial terrace. The use of big sticks by Perry kills people. That's a revelation. No, she's killed someone. This is Perry's 1st murder for the story. for the for her time on the show. Does she do that to Jamie as well and the 2 doctors? Does she give him a whack? Am I thinking of that rice? She's bit aggressive. Yeah. She's, well, Jamie didn't even get a chance to dance his K, but there's a revelation right there. There you go. But we forget how hot the casting of this was at the time, this was absolutely on au courant. Not just for young ones, but Lexi Sale had a really thriving punch you in the face stand-up, which was stand-up, you know, in the circuit crowd. So the young folk watching this were going, yeah, yeah, especially the London crowd. This definitely feels absolutely of the moment. It's just missing Grace Jones. Yeah, in that little scene. playing Orsini. Naked in body paint. That would be mildest. It's, yeah. Do you think he's playing against type because he's actually really quite sweet in this, whereas he, no. Alexi Sale, because, I mean, he was, you know, sort of angry and communist. Well, he's very communist. His parents and he, when he was a lad, his dad was a steward for in a Liverpool factory, but he was flown to, they were flown to Moscow as ambassadors for the party and shown off to the holiday camps. they made, like, make buttlings look like Disneyland. He said he's allowed. was awful. They put him off state communists. How many gunfire shots do they? But the poor guard just gets riddled with bullets. Oh, you see, I actually have a problem with those 2 characters. I think that they're the least successful characters in the story. But also, it sort of shows how much the series moral compass has kind of come off that they're meant to be good guys. They're sort of a, you know, a concerned daughter and a doctor who's accompanying her. And they think nothing of just gunning this guard down in machine gun fire. What happened to good guys kind of knocking out guards to get into places? Well, it is his attempt to be kind of edgy and stuff and remember that Holmes's story, the previous year, that this is very largely based on, has no good guys in it. Like everyone is awful. And so we're trying to replicate that here. There are no good guys in this story. It's like a melted pizza. Oh, stop it. making me hungry. But this again was the tenure of stand-up at the time. We were in the middle of, dare I say, the beginnings anyway of neoliberalism and Thatcher had been there for how many years was it, James? Six? 900? Yeah, 5 or six. So again, there was the sense of, will this pleasure ever cease? Yeah. And we weren't, we didn't have the innocence that we had under Harold McMillan. We didn't have the innocence that we had when Heath was around. or the hope, you could say, there was this sense of just brittle burnt irony. And that's why I mean, this is very much of its time. It should have been very successful. This is the thing we felt... Listen to the commentaries that you did of season 22, gentle listener, if you go back to it. This is better than the received opinion. Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's probably the best story of the season. It's certainly the most successful, I think. works on so many levels. What do you think is the best, Peter? Pharos. Do you? I think Varos is terribly overrated. Um, Ideas wise though. Yeah, it's got a big idea at the centre of it. That's true. And it does build a world. I mean, the world doesn't look particularly successful on screen but I believe the world has allegory. It's entirely contemporary, as is this. This isn't entirely successful. No, but it's a trial. be successful. Have a look at this. It's where the person comes into shot here and their feet aren't on the floor. Yeah, yeah. That's where it is. You'd had everyone in long shots, so you'd been able to see their feet, it would have looked like... So you feel like the that it's going down the floors rather than being just a patent video effect. That's right. And so the fact that someone walks into frame and their bum is where the floor should be, if your brain was processing it, doesn't work. But it is also that idea that a lot of this is mediated through television. So we're talking about Varos and Varos is about people watching Doctor Who. And part of the thing that I like about Varos is that it imagines Doctor Who as being an incredibly crappy program. So what the people are watching on Varos is terrible. And here, everyone's watching things, everyone's on screens and stuff. So having that effect, which looks like the V hole, the vertical hold on your, like Richard is old enough to remember this as well think we all are. That's a revelation. Now, I think she's terrific. She's fantastic. Yep, absolutely superb. I can't believe that there's controversy over the fact that was she giving a performance as a feeble character or was she giving a feeble performance? performance is excellent. No, she manages to be downtrodden and a bully and unlikeable. I the intruders. Do you know, do you know that there is actually something to that? The beginning of this scene was cut. And I've seen the start of this scene. I can't remember how I don't know if it's on the DVD. And she has this very weird performance moment where her and Tarkas are talking. And he says something like, oh, you've got to let it get out of frustrations. She turns around, she goes, shut up. And it's the weirdest performance moment. You can see why they cut it. So they cut in just after that. And it gives context to her strange thing there where she goes fine, Ian Trudeau's. So there we go. I actually find the DJ really annoying. I kind of love him. And of course he's annoying. Yeah. And it's the one thing, the story that I don't like. So Lawrence, we've got a great role for you. Alexi Sal. I don't remember it working at the time. The Alexei sailing, so it's just felt, again, odd, but we weren't living, we weren't in the UK. Yeah. I guess the thing is that it pays off in the 2nd episode where I really do like him when he drops the axe. Yeah, yeah. And so I've grown to like it a lot more, but I still find it, I don't know. I don't know what's happening in even in universe. So these people are in suspended animation, but they're conscious enough to hear him talking to them. Like, this is like hospital radio, isn't it? You know, in Britain, hospitals had their own radio station. And so that's very much what this is. And so the people who are frozen in suspended animation waiting to be revived, who are really just being sort of chopped up and sold to their relatives to eat in a traditional season 22 way McDonald's, McDonald's. But we're supposed to imagine that they're that they're listening and they're being entertained. I gather that they actually pay money for the deluxe package, which includes the DJ talking to you. Why would you want to listen to a local like hospital radio station work? Would you not just listen to a radio station? It's a revelation to me because I always believe that it was more like, you know, this is like the world that the great healer has created and to, and to put a mask on it. They've got this. oh, we've got the DJ who talks to your to your loved one. So it's sort of a front so that none of the relatives actually question anything that's going on there. It's like, oh, yes, here's our DJ, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, it's covering up the fact that they're using the bodies for food. Yeah, yeah, okay. That's how I feel. That sounds reasonable. Yeah, so I don't like these 2 either. And I think it's very say wouldy and very nasty. And, you know, like he's a drunk as well, which again, you know just adds an extra kind of anti-hero thing to it. But like the scene of them being tortured later is really not. Oh, it's horrible. and that's where the character who I think is the most awful analogue of things that go wrong around this point. Richard Burton and Elizabeth Turner. Because you, I'm quite sure that's what so would had in mind as you're watching that. Were they married again for the 3rd time while this was being shot? It just feels like it. That's a bleak 7 location. Look at that. I have a moment to think. Yeah. Well timed, was it? The comedy turban. She's wearing it now, James isn't she? Great. I do love Eleanor Braun. She is spectacular. I would have preferred. I would have preferred Jennifer Saunders, but, you know, it still works. Imagine that. And Dawn as Davros. you imagine? Well, I would want Dawn to be Vogal. I interviewed Nick Mallet, and you know who he wanted Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders to play. I think I do. Vince and Deba. Sorry, what's that? The mysterious planet. Must be the not we here. I've ever seen the whole thing. Complete with the sort of stripy sideburns? Possibly complete with stylurian costumes. So Savalong Glitz comes back, remember in Dragonfire. Dabros. That's a revelation. I didn't realise that was actually the correct pronunciation. That's why I'm always doing it. Actually, in the Greek, how would we? Well it's not really a Greek word, but yeah, I could, yeah, you could say Danveros. Yeah, I think she's just trying to sound very continental. Like her gorgeous outfit and everything. spend the money on this fricking turban for nothing. Yeah, she really is too damn good, isn't she? She's wonderful. And actually, a lot of characters in this story have a slight accent. Yeah, the computer does. Tassenbika does sometimes. That's right. But no, her assistant should have been Kenneth Williams. Yeah, the lovely Runcible, the fatuous. Saywood wrote this whilst he was on Holiday Inn Roads. Did he? Yes. Okay. I don't know. I'm being full. Exactly. That's a revelation. Bashing around with Jackie Lane, wherever that accent took him that. I think she's superb. I wonder if this isn't a nod to the conventions. I wonder if this isn't JNT, saying, you know, like, though people light behind the scenes. Yeah, yeah. It just feels like all the bickering I've ever seen behind the gilded curtain at every convention I've ever been to. Saws. Well, maybe maybe even maybe even in a TV production. I mean, the whole thing is this sort of huge production. Yeah. Or every amateur theatrical. Why do you keep looking at me, Richard? actually trying to watch this story. Listeners, I hope you're watching this story. I don't know what these people are talking about. But you wouldn't think based on Saywood's past working, Doc 2, that he had a touch of the camp, would you? Think about slipback, which is coming up, which is him trying to do Douglas Adams. Sorry, that's just the filthiest expression we've ever used on this show. Would you like a towel? I need a safe word, people. A safe word will be slipped back. That's not safe at all. And this, I love the fact that we never see a camera. We know that this whole thing is being monitored. Everyone's on TV. You know, the great healers watching TV, the DJs watching TV. We never see a camera, but Joe Bell is super aware of being on camera. And so we just get these little moments where the characters regard the actual camera, which is sort of high up. It looks so great. It's so well done. The doctor does it at the start of episode 2 where he walks into the reception and just catches sight and sort of frowns. Yeah, well done. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you get that a little bit in caves too, don't you? With, um, uh, um, Shara's Jack in his bass watching everyone on TV and morgas. Yeah, we do see that. Yes, shoot 1st and ask questions later. The guards weaponless, so all they can do is run after them. Straight into the camera. Camera. Ow. Look at this. What magnificent location work? Yes, this is our last use of film in Doctor Who in classic Doctor Who, and it looks incredible. It really does look a lot better than videotape. Amaing. Yeah. Yeah. But Graham is one of those few directors. can do location and studio work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that looks lovely. And I think we said in our Colin Baker episode that Colin is much better on location. that when Colin is in a glitzy light entertainment studio with all of the colour saturation turned up to 11 to try and compete with his wretched costume, he plays it too big. But when he's on location, he's actually really considerably better, I think. Stop looking at me, Richard. We discussed this with Nathan. I'm not going over old things. is fantastic. Well, this is a strange thing. I mean, are they talking about the doctor's penis here? Yep, yep. That's a revelation. And at the time again, thinking this is one of the funniest moments in Doctor Who I've ever seen. It's really perfectly timed. Look at where his hands are. It's fantastic. both know what they're doing. They do. Is it apt though? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Look at context. It's all about... it's also Colin. I mean, what is his doctor? That's a revelation. I rarely use it. That's a revelation. I actually love his, you know, slowly hauling himself up the wall acting as well. You see, I think this crystallises the relationship between the Dr and Perry, how it was now, it should have been when he jumps off and leaves her on top. It's fantastic. Is he getting his revenge? He's just saying, well, screw you, you broke my thing. Yes. This is fantastic. I'm sorry. Bye. She kind of goes... Just look like the tartest food machine is set to Twinkie constant. Oh, you fat shaped shirt. I actually remember at the time being relieved at how much clothing she was wearing for a change, you know, like it wasn't her, all her wretched boob tubes and leotards and stuff. She actually had some clothes on it. It was a bit of a revelation time. She had to cover up all those nut roast rules. Revelation. Yeah, she does look so much better, doesn't she? And which comes in studio later on. She's wearing the same outfit she was in timelash, which is, you know, quite a fetching sort of brown tunic thing. looks based on that. Yeah, I like that too. Certainly, I think, one of her best. Costumes. The Mysterious Planet one is pretty good too. And Michael? Yeah, yeah. vision in pink. It's okay. But it's always those daisy duck shoes. Yeah. Those stupid things in time lash, not time lash. What is it, mysterious planet, when she's stomping around with the new forest in a pair of daisy duck pumps. Foolish bint. Have we had the Australian cliffhanger yet? Oh, we're about to come up. Yes. Actually, I was thinking about that because I can't remember. I can't remember what it is. I think it was. Yeah, I think you might be right. Just that. It wasn't the dalek. Just before the Dalek, wasn't it? That's pretty shoddy. one of the shoddy ones. It should have been the Dalek. It could have been it could have been an end of one Dalek end of episode one Dalek reveal. But we have had them before. But it's always the case of these. They just went, oh, this is the time boom. And if they'd gone 20 seconds or 30 seconds either side, half the time, it's a better cliffhanger. But didn't production build them in? No. That's why we had the ones, you know, where the Hacienda is this way. That's the best one ever. love that. It's my favourite. Having said that, like the cliffhanger for episode 3 of this is different depending on which territory you're in. Okay, well, let's talk about that when we get to it. I think you're all being very kind here. None of you have surpassed the Mali linoleum floor of the excellence. Yes, the bath mat of doom. Which, again, was not meant to be a cliffhanger. No, they had to move things around. I think it might have been trying to get into the city and the Daleks coming around the corner, but they said, no, we've got a nice bit of floor here. We'll make that the cliffhanger. Look, it would have been really hard to lay. I found it quite exciting. Obius coming back. Oh, I'd really like that carpet. Hello, still. I want the morpherton's back. Yes. And can we have Jackie Hill as well, please? Oh, please. Humans are unparallelled in their dexterity. Not fur brains. But Meg lost track of you or an earthly child? I like Meg lost Jackie, actually. This is the thing. She's good in everything. Yeah. I think we said at the time, she takes a very thankless role and humanises it. gives some dignity. Yeah, absolutely. wipes the walls with Lala. It's quite impact. kind of embarrassing, isn't it? Who else is on screen? Don't know, can't see. And she's got and she's got longer bangs and everything, hasn't she? Her extensions are even better. Yes, yeah. Oh dear. Jackie, would like you back on the series. We got a wonderful role for you. The mutant. All around in the snow. Chucky Lane. No, he'll. He does look like not the same. Save on a makeup, Bill. No, that should have been Larry. He does look like someone who Pierce Brosnan would have just dissed, doesn't he? They all look like pre... No, of course this is Roger was still Bond, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah. But only for once. Oh, he's totally wham there. doctor. I thought that was Roger. That's a revelation. So I... is a revelation. No, it's Richard Keel. Look at the teeth. It's amazingly gross, isn't it? They wanted to do a glass dalek for a while, I think. Terry Nation, the Daleks. Right. Slash mutants. It's actually in Doctor Who in an exciting adventure with the Dale. There's a glass darling. Right. So this is something that we've always wanted to be able to do. It is gross, but I think it looks amazing. Like, I think they're clearly feeding... They're feeding air into sort of the stuff around his head so that it, like the heads all sort of throbbing and stuff. like a big old vein. And there's a lot of KY jelly beans. It's getting very Kenny everywhere. Safe word slip back. Are you getting Captain Crewman noises as well? When are we doing the Kenny Everett podcast? Ah, we're doing it now. I remember thinking that the way that he turns around so quickly is fantastic. Like, you can believe that he's a disembodied head. Well, I thought the ship had blown up, you know, when he was escaping and all that, they managed to save their head somehow. A lot of peting going off into space. Can we not mention that? Long before Futurama. had this. Yeah, yeah, that's it. He's head in a jar. It kind of looks a bit like Tom Baker. That's true, saying. We've got a great role for you, Tom. And it's the same offscreen attitude too at the time. James, please tell me in what way does he look like, Tom? The sort of pulsating brain looks like. Silhouette. A silhouette. It's a season 18 Tom. Yeah, silhouette. Oh, top throb. looks like an excellent to me. looks like an excellent. Oh, beautiful. With his big cowl over his head. More like a gel guard. Yeah, here's a bit. Do we know what ever happened? I need Brendan here. Do we know what ever happened to bloke on right with nice perm? Because he does definitely feel like someone that would have been in 30 seconds of bond before being thrown the keys to the higher car and told to sod off and sort it out for yourself while I go and taunt Caroline Monroe and my lovely knitwear ensemble. Yeah, the number one hit with careless whisper the next year. That's a revelation. You must say, Caroline, John. Caroline Monroe just did a piece for the Guardian on her career which mentions the lovely Roger and his knitwear. They both started as knitwear models. She said he was lovely and we talked about knitwear. I have to say that both of the mutants in this story, I think, give good performances, like one of the location and him, as it builds to been... Yeah, they're really good. It's quite touching when the mutant outside is dying. Oh, dear. Oh, no, now it's going horrible. Yeah. Yeah, punch the woman in the stomach. That's what we want to see on tea time TV. Hashtag Davros too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are Graham. Harper's creative decisions, aren't they? Well, I think it's the script. I mean, like this thing where we're going to like, you know, where Colin wants to carve bits of a face off. Like, you know, I just don't think that's the right tone for us to be taking. Yeah, I actually think Mr. Lilt there is one of the most misbegotten characters ever to appear in Doctor Who. He's so unpleasant, that he takes out a flick knife and says, I must mark her, which is just not Doctor Who in any way. No, no, he doesn't do it. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a great character as well. Great actor. William Gordon. Yeah. So this is a response, isn't it? Is there something where he says, no, I want to sort of create an amoral kind of character who's not? I can't remember. There's some story. Is it Lytton? Did he want to create his own litter? Well, Lytton was his. Yeah, Lytton was his. I don't know, but I think that this is that he's a good character and this is him trying to be Robert Holmes and having a sort of homesey and double act with these two. And I think it's reasonably successful and partly just because William Gaunt's really good. I think everybody in this scene is just amazing. Yeah, I mean, the characters are well written in this story, but they're all played to perfection. And in fact, the story's just full of homes and double X for want of using that expression. Fogue, Vogel and Kara. Fogel and Kara. Tarkas and Lil. Yeah, um, the doctor and Natasha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Show Bill and sorry, not the doctor. Yeah, the young doctor a little while. Joe Bell and Tessa Baker. Yeah. So Joe Bell is obviously based on Mr. Joyboy from which you should just really put your iPhone down right now at this point switches off and then go and read the loved one, which is incredibly brutal. Like, it's actually more brutal than this. Um, and yeah, it's really horrible and super, you know, you know like Evelyn Moore clearly was a truly terrible person. I was measuring Royal North Shore hospital with a large part of it when I was reading that as a student and assistant architect. I had to go and measure lots of nasty bits of it. And it was the perfect thing to be reading sitting outside for a hour thinking, I've got to go back into the bowels of that. No, I'll read a bit more. It's more fun. It's really horrible. It's super funny. I read it at school for some reason. I don't know why they thought it was appropriate, but I guess we didn't really understand it when we were in year nine. Now reading is an adult. It's horrible. Are you saying that, Eric, they would turn something down? Yeah, a bit. Well, saying that this is based on the loved one is doing love and disservice. I mean, it's just wholesale ripped from it. Yeah, I mean, the loved one has lots of stuff about, you know, the relationship between England and America and stuff about Hollywood and like it's broader and got more interesting things, but it's got this place called Whispering Glades, which is the sort of giant necropolis. So tranquil repose. Even that there's a little bit of dialogue about how Americans have embarrassing names for this. You know, when Perry hears, it's called tranquil repose. She says, that's like something we would come up with in the states. And so it's a massive necropolis and it's, you know, beautiful and wonderful, but it's, you know, racially segregated and Jewish people aren't allowed to be buried there. And it's really, really kind of horrible. Uh, and then there's the, um, the dog cemetery that the main character works at the pet cemetery, the name of which happy hunting ground, I think it's called. And the end of the loved one, Richard, do you remember? I want to spoil it. I'm not going to spoil it, but it is just about the blackest darkest thing that I've ever read. It's wonderful. Well, Stephen King tried to ape it with pet symmetry, didn't he? But he never got quite as... No, no, it's nowhere near as terrifying as the loved one. This lovely location filming. IBM Portsmouth. Is that where it is? I don't know why they built pyramids there that they did. Still here to this day, children. You can still go along and toss a jabble light at each other, so that's good. What do we think of the timing thing? People critique season 22 because they don't seem to work out exactly how to do two part stories with 44 minute episodes? Well, I think I think they've worked it out by now, but here, the necessity was that these 2 were doing pantomime and so they couldn't do certain blocks of recording in studio, so you had to write them on location. Right. So the doctors wearing a pantsomime keep there. Well, I mean, they're not on in the studio at all for episode one. That's right. And that's a lot more studio, not a lot more location stuff than we would ordinarily expect in a story in this era. Um, It's about about the same. I think, maybe. Mark of the Rani had double the... double the location filming allocated to it. But that's because they got an extra crew, right, for free. So, I mean, but episode two, I think there's they're indoors a lot more. Yeah, yeah, right. I think it just seems like there's more location work because it's all clumped together in one episode. So, yeah, I agree, James. and the fact that Dr. and Perry are all on occasion for this episode. Just, yeah. Yeah, and I think people might get it in reverse in season 22 where they say that the doctor and Perry just take forever to arrive. So why are they keeping them separate? I think they were probably trying to the inverse, which was set up of a convincing world and then bring the doctor into it. It doesn't quite work. But it's all right. Yeah, I mean, he comes in and breaks it all. Like they come in and just sort of wreck it. They and the Daleks sort of come in and wreck it, I think. I actually think Barris is the worst story in terms, basically, in terms of keeping the Dr. in Perry out of the world, through the whole device, in the Tartar console and having a hissy fit and all that. That's the one thing in that story that I find the pacing really bad. If I had to pick an episode this season, that's where they've stretched. I feel like they've stretched one episode of 25 minutes into 45. I mean, they do it a bit in time lash, don't they? running under time and they just record a whole lot of kind of stuff that's marking time in the TARDIS console room with Herbert. Yeah, but that's a bit later on. Yeah. I think it depends on the quality of the rising here. The scenes between them are good. And so you don't mind watching Adler scenes of just a doctor and Perry wandering around. And, you know, and these guys here in this scene have got so much exposition of world building with the great healer and the food across the galaxy and then their mission. You don't mind at all. Oh my god, I just love this. I can just sit here and watch it all day. We missed that scene with Joe Bell talking to his assistants, and I think it must be the only reference to nose picking in Doctor Who. Not even in the new series. I don't think so. I mean, Tom Baker went around with a big old booger hanger out of his nose in Keeper of Truck. He did, though, didn't he? It's quite over. Well, nose picker is a cockney reference for many other. You know what I'm saying, don't you? Once a nose picker always, a nose picker son. you know, it's pretty much the same as, you know, shirtlifter. That's a revelation. I don't yes. Sorry, guys. tuning in and out of your conversation, but I'm actually watching this episode. thinking of the listener at home loves us talking all over each other on the show. Otherwise, you might as well just sit and watch it with this turned off and read them. Oh no, you wouldn't, you'd go and turn everything off and read the loved one, wouldn't you? Yes, exactly. In a comedy turban. whilst watching Soylid Green. Uh, yeah, which Seywood said he hadn't watched when it was when he was riding this. And it really, that, that's perfectly fair because it was so mimetic at the time. You didn't need to have seen silent green to know it. It's like most Kubrick films. You don't need to have seen them. Yeah. To get the message, get the drill or get them. I love that it's all being shot in the 0 room. It has the same set. That's a revelation. I just found it lying around in props somewhere. Very observant. very true. I'm just waiting for Bostock to levitate. I was going to say Bostock. He actually looks smelly. Yeah, he looks oily, doesn't he? He looks like a conventioner at a Dr. Convention around this time. You need a line there where Kara said, oh, it said you only have to breathe on a victim. I said, no, I leave that to Boston. I do love her line. The odours of nature have charms all their own. She is so tremendous. You totally been to an old style, not too conventional. And her pleasing personality. That's a revelation. She is so good. I love her so much. It's a brilliant performance. And, you know, she went on to be in Emmerdale wearing a blonde wig. Really? I like to collect... She wants... She once rang the office. Gary Gillett answered the phone and almost had a coronary on the spot and was like, oh, yes, right. And then hung up, said, Jenny Thomasson just rang us. She said she can't come to the awards because she can't get a dress at Monsoon. One thing about the makeup here is she's got this helmet thing with the lines there, but then she's obviously meticulously drawn on her forehead. Her forehead so that you can't actually move that helmet up her tail so that it matches. It is a very strange choice. It's an... It's a creative choice. Puzzling creative choice, yeah. But it works. She's got her pseudo-layer buns at the side. Yeah. Yeah, she was very well regarded from, was it upstairs downstairs? Or the Duchess of Duke's Street. It was one of the two. She played a lead role. Wow. It's like someone below stairs. Right, right. Wow, look at that. They built those purposely. What are those IBM pyramids? That's actually quite well done. It's a glass shot, isn't it? Looks amazing. I love this. This doesn't quite work. No, but I love it. There's no way the doctor could miss sighted the dialler care. Oh, no, that is good. Again, having it, rather than appear in the background, having them in the background and having it cross in front of the camera. And it is an incredible location. Doctor Who, until the new series, Doctor Who, oh, well, I guess, I guess, uh, frontier in space using a sort of modernish building to be a building from the future, um, two, in fact. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not something they do very much, though. It is a good location. I think you can see people wandering around with clipboards like behind windows occasionally. This is so gross. Oh, it's horrible. But again, it's nicely shot. I do like, you know, Tarkas in the foreground. Well, we're torturing people in the background. I do like my misogynist torturing to be well shot. Yes, yes, why? It's gross, isn't it? Tarkas is a good character. He's generally sort of amoral, isn't he? Allows all of this to go on, but he does have good intentions. Does he? I think so. trying to safeguard tranquil repose. He just wants to get back to what they're doing. He says it later on and, you know, help people and save lives. That's my friend tortures... Yeah. Well, yeah, amoral. You look like you're seeing this for the 1st time. In some ways, I am, but I'm just remembering again British SF and how it never properly veered into the Americana of Spielberg and Lucas. It stayed post teen, didn't it? It was always a thread of dystopian. We knew what was coming. I'm just looking at the footage of the Arctic splitting up today like crazy paving on the news and then looking at this and thinking, well, exactly there's too many people to feed and the atmosphere's becoming acidic. We've always known this. And Doctor Who was always right there. We've talked about Rachel Carson's silent spring in Planet of the Giants and really way, way back. Again, I'm most impressed watching this and the beautiful lighting and the staging. Carper knows how to set up a multi-shot. Yeah, yeah. And get it. to look interesting. Really, really well. But also to then show us exactly what the script's going on. These were really intelligent creative people working on this on this show. And then we have Alexi Sale, who again, I don't think he's well served by the script or by the part. But he's just there as a cypher, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah, I think a story like this is a good example of the old studio system where the different creatives are bringing different layers to things. Harper's bringing an entirely new layer to this story in the way that he's shooting it. And it just wouldn't have been there with some of the other directors of the era. Ron Jones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here we go. So we're heading towards our cliffhanger. Look at that. Colin's eating a few pies this season, hasn't he? Yeah, well, just wait until next year. Do you think that might be a restoration team special edition somewhere where he falls on the marble block and it shatters? We have to remember his veto of the character options figure, don't we? I'm 23. Yeah, you remember that? They did a full car. I'm trying to remember Edward. Edward did a full carve, but they knew. Colin said no. That's not doing on sale. He's sucking my gut. Had the season 22, Colin head, but the body of Joan Sim. It was a little bit Thomas the Tank engine in the end. I just think the hair is truly horrible in season 23 as well. I give you that. I do like all those fanboys when Jodie Whittaker started being the doctor, all those fanboys explaining that the doctor would never do anything trivial, like give herself blonde highlights and you kind of go, where were you boys during the 80s, for God's sake? Well, the 70s. I love the way with this, how that thing's rocking in the background. I think that's great. It's setting it up. Oh, that long shot was good. I've had more of that. And that's, I think that's a great, there you go. Well, do you know, it was originally supposed to fall onto the camera and go dark? So like cut to black because it had cut off all of the lights and it didn't work and so he flared it to white instead. Works really well. Rather fabulously. The working title for this story was the end of the road. It's not a very 80s Doctor Who name. It's very, actually, it's a very new series. Yeah, so many people. Do you remember when Doctor Who used to have a big guest cast? Like, you know, we have these news, like series 11 where there'll be like 3 people or something? One of them will be a frog. No. Yeah, I mean, 80s or 2 just had endless guest cards. Now you look at Warriors Deep and you forget who some of the characters arcs. There's just so many of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also they were names. They had good actors in every one of them, like we're seeing here. We may not know them so well out here, but if you were living in the UK and ever went to rep theatre or ever just watched any of the long ongoing series. These were names that got you in. What were the ratings like on this one? Do you recall? The ratings were, they went up. Like I remember them being strong at the end of the season. A Dalek bump? Yeah, no, there was a bump. Yeah, that's harlic bump. But interestingly, the bump came for episode 2 because episode one had the same ratings as Timelash episode 2 the previous. Episode one was... 7.400000 in episode 2 was 7.77. Right. you go. couldn't quite remember. Respectable, isn't it, for the time? I think so. And it was back in the top, it was like about 65th for the week. Like, from time lash onwards, the ratings and the places went up but, you know, it was too late by then. The show was on hiatus. Now we're playing too cosy hindsight moments because that's what we all do, isn't it? Have a have a custard cream. You can leave the rich tea where they're sitting. Let's go for that deep, the deep and good biscuits. My favourite moment of Trump in the UK this week is that little sign that a grandma held up was that Dear Queen, don't give him the good biscuits. I hope that Colin is thinking the same for Dar Ross. If they don't know, we've got custard creams, they're cannon aren't they, bloody hell? had a terrible accident. That's a revelation. Would this have done? Would this actually have gone on to simply be respectable after this hiccough of if we hadn't had the response from Michael Gray and all the rest of them, and they just let it keep going and not do the hiatus, which again, no one seemed to know what to do with it. How would it have been if we just had 2 more years? This has been good writing. Well, I think that I think, I mean, I remember feeling that what is, what's the problem with Doctor Who in the 80s, like the early 80s, is that they set a world and then they just put the doctor in it and nothing very interesting happens. Like there's a series of captures and escapes and stuff and then just sort of we get on with our lives. And so, John Wiles, you mean? But the storytelling What's wrong with the space museum? That's an outrageous accusation. I actually really like the space museum. So I just think it seemed a bit tired and they stopped knowing why they were doing it. And it has also stopped. I think part of moving away from Saturday nights and just the TV landscape, it just becomes yet another thing and and they're not thinking about who the audience is beyond the people that J and T meets the conventions and stuff. I think the main problem is must be seyward. I mean, I'm not as down on Eric Seywood as some people are. But I don't think he's interested in the character of the doctor. He wants to be writing Blake 7, doesn't he? Yeah, actually, he might have done better on Blake 7, although it wouldn't have been clever. Can you imagine Avon and Villa spouting say you would dialogue at each other? You must think me a fool. He couldn't have done worse with season four. I've just started watching that again after I can't tell you how many years since I watched it. I've never opened the DVD box, so it's at least since VHS. It doesn't really stand up as well, does it? Do you know, what I think is... Oh, moments. Yeah, here's the shot of the doctor realising he's a magnificent organ. What? I love that look too. He knows something's up, right? And it's underplayed too. Oh, yeah, totally. Colin is so on point on this... He is, I actually think Colin's performance in this season is pretty good. It's pretty up there with everyone else. I think it goes slightly off when someone meddles the next season and says, no, no, play it like this and be more jolly and do this take them away from his instincts and I think it goes off the tracks. Do you? Okay. He's actually a very good actor. He's just... No, no. On audio. But, you know, given something meaty and understanding. Thank you. Thank you. Say word slip back. But given something to sink his teeth in too. he actually can do a pretty good job. Yes, thank you. I don't think it's Colin, particularly is the problem in this era at all. No. No. Yeah. And I just think it's the tone. Like something horrible is going on. And I also think Colin has an inclination to play roles big. Sexy's normal computer voice. That's you, James. That's a revelation. And so I think if a director encourages him to bring it down, then you know, it's pretty good. I do actually love this voice. Can you imagine if every Doctor Who computer had this voice? Imagine the boss. Sexy boss or Votan? should have been. They're all taking the piss out of Major Barrett, aren't they? As you should. Wasn't it Juno Baker doing the voice? If you just had a look at the captions there, the computer in brackets said sexily, you're welcome. I love this scene. There's a moment that the doctor and Perry just look at each other as she's going through things and just look at them. It's fantastic. Yes, yes, yes. We both think the same thing. And now I'm going to put on my face. Oh, it's fantastic. I think I think you're right about the size of Colin's performance that he kind of lacks interiority. and like classic doctors don't really have interiority, but coming back from Davison, where you could very definitely tell what he was thinking, he was always trying to do something with a line. Um, whereas, he looks like Eric, say what that. He does. That's a revelation. That's the revelation. Wow. It's one of Saywood's own wigs, I think. I wonder if that wasn't deliberate. Who was pissing Graham Harper off the most? Precisely. Because he is, he really was the Dougie Cameron light, wasn't he? Just because he was kept it together and held order, he still had that military precision and that very short fuse. Canfield had he'd worked with Canfield? Yeah, he's been an Enjournue, yeah, yeah. They both worked on the seeds of doom together. Right. I forgot that we were still on location here in what would have been episode three, but you know, there is a lot of location work. What are these things? They're amazing. It is a great location and it is really good. And in a sort of proleptic reference to the parting of the ways. We have bastic bullets here. welcome to the stage. once again. I say, can I have Orsini's jacket? Look at that. It's amazing. I like the gun. actually, with the little sort of... I like the little nod too. Sophie Eldred screen test we haven't seen yet and that he's wearing her jacket on the left there. She's got bastards. It's very up middle class. The gun reminds me a bit of the Keys of Marinus, the little pod things. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Words never heard. That gun reminds me of the keys of marinace. I like this screen as well. The looking through screens, like having a transparent thing. So we shoot them through a screen. Yeah. Did you do that a bit last year in caves? Yeah, he had holograms where people walking around. Walking around, they did too. How beautiful it was. I'm definitely getting a vibe that this scene is titillation for the for the production office on how they would be casting the 7th doctor and companion because honestly, tropishly, it's almost scene for scene. I'm not a little girl anymore. I love how they both have rats' tails. That's very period, isn't it? And this, of course, was supposed to be a flying dalek, but they couldn't manage to do it. But they seem to have brought a lot of explosives. It's a great explosion. I believe this is an aerodrome? Plastic heads. That's a revelation? There's plastic heads on the closed captions instead of bastic which is what it actually is. Long suffering person doing the captions, like, what? What? Plastic. Is it an old World War II? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still talking to her and getting more frustrated. fantastic. Perpetually the statement. I do like the use of the term, the word inhumation as well, for burial. I think Eric's having fun with this script, and you don't get a sense that he's having fun a lot of the time. I think, you know, like he's branching out. I think just the military stuff, you know, that he wants to do something a bit more satirical. And that he was away from the production office and so maybe he wasn't have the stress of, we have to remember what it was like for him as well. And JNT was just rattling around, really giving no feed except criticism and then going to a convention and bringing back whatever received fan wisdom was of the time. really didn't help. But also too, J&T wasn't allowing old writers to come back. You know, Eric's talked about that, you know. and that's a problem. Was this the era at which he was spending most of his time doing his Christmas panto as well? Well, that's what the Colin and Nicola were doing with Anthony Anley, I think, at the time, the Christmas panto. I mean, where's your priority? Yeah, oh, so that's why they're not in episode one. That's right. Yeah. I think they might have decided to shoot in Portsmouth because it was near the Panto location as well. Oh, God. Well, look, I mean those things are still important. And one of the things that Russell and like the other 3 letter initialism, like that RTD and JNT have in common is that they're both acutely aware that part of their job is to keep the show in the public eye and make it huge. And Russell manages to do that by creating the sort of, you know Doctor Who cinematic universe with bunches of spinoffs and all sorts of things and he does it really successfully. Well, he also creates a show people want to watch. Well, yeah, there's that as well. Yeah, the pilot massage with Mistor didn't get off the ground. Wow, I would watch the hell out of that time. Spiel, Snape, Spiel, Snape. Oh, Edward. Our safe word for today will be either Romulus or Remus. Not both at once. No, they're interchangeable. Haven't they been embalmed? Look at that. This story just looks amazing, doesn't it? It looks really good. I genuinely think that when the show came back in 2005. This was one of the few stories you could have taken and shown alongside it and it wouldn't have looked like a museum piece. The Graham's really good with his studio cameras. Everything's covered brilliantly. It's the lighting and the setting. It's also the positioning of the actors and the way that the camera moves around them. You're not aware of a camera presence, but look how many jump cuts there are. There's a lot of... I actually love Colin's delivery of that line. Oh, yes. And then boom, boom. And the Christmas Daleks. So excited to see Christmas Daleks. They're beautiful, aren't they? Who would have thought that colour scheme would work? It looks amazing. And they look even better when they come back. in a few years time with the nice sexy eyes. Oh, yeah, well, they've had a bit more money spent on them. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they're new props, aren't they, when they come back for remembrance. I think they made like a half dozen new props for this. I wouldn't be surprised if they reused them. Oh, okay. The white dialects in this island are new props. Yeah, right. And you can tell when the gray ones turn up at the end, they look like they're a bit more rattly. So this is just a redress set of the other office, isn't it? Oh, so it is. They've just turned the lights blue instead of pink. Someone's turned on the air conditioning in the 0 room. This is just like this creepiness of his character there is just... It's gross. Oh yeah. And it is weird how the doctor sends Perry off with him. Go with the sexual predator Perry. In, um, in the loved one. In the loved one, his analogue, Mr. Joyboy, lives with his mother and is coded as gay, isn't he? Like, he's a cosmetician. And there's a wonderful detail where there's a female lead, who's not really a lead, because the book's so misogynist, and he expresses his love for her by sending a series of corpses up to be kind of given the finishing touches. It's her job to give them finishing touches and the corpses all have big smiles on them because he's so happy about how their relationship is going. That's what I mean by toning it down. The loved one is very, very much nastier than this. But I love the fact here that he drops into his English accent and he's a beautiful character. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is very sweet. Is that shot differently? Like, is there some sort of baseline or something on the lens? In this in these shots? Yeah, it's short and soft focus. Yeah, I thought... He saw one of the unsung heroes of Doctor Two. These characters who come in and just align with the doctor and his friends because they're good characters and then end up dying horribly. In fact, he's the only good person in the whole thing. Yeah. So he has to die. Yeah. Horribly. Horribly. that he that he dies. I like how well done that is. too. Like I don't, you know, like killing character is for effect, I think, is sort of terribly cheap and stuff. But having it done just in audio and not hearing it, I think it's really good with a doctor's reaction and stuff. Oh, yeah, it's over the microphone. Yeah, very sane. Why don't you kill him? Yeah, it's wonderful. Look at this lovely scene. She's doing such a good job. So this is the temptation. of Tessemika. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? It takes Davros's character back to where it started because in the previous 2 stories he's just been a cypher. Whereas in Genesis, Davros could read people. manipulate them. What do you think of Molloy as Davros? He does a nice line and a gurgling laugh. It's hard. hard to say, isn't it? Because, again, it comes down to script and direction. So Malloy, again, ooh, he's good on the audios. He's great with Colin in the audios. Really, really nice And I, this is Molloy here now, isn't it? Yeah, he's lovely in this as well. He's a meteor devil, isn't he, to go with our current theme? There's a lot of offal in this. awful themed podcast today isn't he? He's better than... I like him in all of his 3 stories. I think he's better than David Gooderson. I think probably the problem is that, you know, in Genesis, you've got 6 episodes with him. You've got quite a lot of time and you get to see him before he turns into the creator of the Daleks when he doesn't have that mythic status. I think that's also the point. You get the fragility of the actor himself, Michael Wisher and the tiny bath chair and the withering and you get lots of pull back shots of Dave Ross. But Malloy definitely is a far more rubicund Davrils. I've been eating better. Yes. What both of them get. And I think what probably Julian Bleach gets as well is the different registers, you know, that he has a very quiet voice and perhaps even slightly camp, like a, you know, when he speaks very quietly. I'm right here. I love this, how they enter the daleks in this scene. Oh, this is oh, gorgeous. Oh, there he goes. Oh, this look, this look. Oh, the little puppy look. And now he's dead. He does fall in a very comfortable way, doesn't he? I think it's a great extermination. Yeah. It's better than people just lying down. She barely reacts in destiny. Well, in fact, I love her line, you know, like in that... Well, like we were saying earlier with Colin being very external and that's all interior, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. This is a nice little scene. I like the fact that he has, um, taken him upon himself to call in an outside force which we're going to see shortly. Like there's something going on in the background that you don't necessarily pick up. Yeah. And we are made privy to everyone else's. You're a very naughty man. It's a revelation. I think we should have a little time. I mean look at the framing of that. Well, well, that's the that's the camera that that's what we're going to see. Desert Baker has been watching all along. And in fact, they were all looking up in the air while they were conspiring, only to discover that in fact, look, they have been being observed by the great healer the whole time. Do you remember how cut up this was in when we 1st saw it in Australia? Oh, this ripped the climax out of it, didn't they, with Joe Bell? Yeah, yeah. I did they? Yeah. So that scene, there's a, you know, the scene and we're getting ahead of ourselves, but whatever. Where Joe Bell dies and it's perfectly timed. I don't know how it was achieved, but his 2 pay falls off onto the ground, like just a moment, you know, there's a little bead wonderful because at the start of that scene, he's fussing around with it in the mirror. But all that was cut when it was shown in Australia. And so she rushes in and then she rushes off and we don't know what she's done. Like she threatens him and maybe goes to stab him because there's a prolonged scene where he's sort of stumbling with a syringe coming. That's the thing where she goes to stab him, and then you hear him sort of go, and then it cuts to her running through the corridor so you don't see any of the aftermath. Oh, okay, you don't see any of that. Again, the Dalek eye stalk just came into shock when she turned around. Another great directional. blocking is so good on this. How did oh, because he's got a gas mask on? I was just wondering, how does how does Boston manage to sneak up on anyone? That's a revelation. Smell anything in that thing. The music in this as well. Is Graham Harper the only director who ever got an actual scorer out of Roger Lim, rather than squeaks and squawks and Ark of Infinity soundscape? Yeah. I'm struggling to remember it. But, uh, it's like Cave Zone Design. It's the 2nd iteration of that. Right. And Roger Lim did that as well. Yeah. Did directors get to choose who did the music? No. It was just assigned? No, not those. Chris Cranfield always said, we'll be having none of the Aussie striney, blokey type noise for me. Thank you. I want the London saxophone call. very much. Maybe he just made his preferences known ahead of time. Yeah. That we did tell that story on the podcast, I think. Yeah. And you know, it's actually a little bit debunked, that story. Is it? Yeah. Although, I mean, there's one... there is literally one episode of the 52 Blake 7 episodes, only one of them isn't scored by Dudley Simpson, and it is Canfields. And do you know why that is? It's because they were running behind on their schedule so much that Dudley couldn't keep up with the finished episodes and Duel was the only one where he said, I can either do this episode or I can do the next episode. You can't have both. Wow. So it's a coincidence. It's a coincidence. Richard remains unconvinced. I would have liked to have played the president's wife, actually if I was in this. It would have been relaxing, you know. Do you like a bit of frothing? Yeah, yeah. I can froth on command actually. I can froth on command. Who is lying underneath that? I'm like Elizabeth Moss. Or is it just a mannequin? Well, the hands look real. No, they borrowed from from the Thunderbirds, their Lady Penelope's hands, from the close-ups in the Thunderbirds. Off the Sitex cushion. I told you how she's always coming and saying, Mr. Joe Bell. I think Big Finishes missed a range here. They could have the Mr. series. I've heard Mr. Jobil. And then guess who else? Who else? Senator Alcott from the Minder Evil. Mr. Fu Pang. Just stop it. If you say that 3 times, Peter, there will be a box set by the time we finished recording. then we'll have Mr. Mestor. If you say Meshtra Fufang 3 times, a Chinese dragon appears. A vinyl one. Oh, so here we go. Yeah, here we go. I actually, she is so horrible. I mean he is so horrible to her. Like the, the, um, what does he say? I think I would rather have sex with my own mother or something. Or other snog mayor. like a fat fawning creep or something like that. It's really gross. really awful. Yeah, yeah. And she says to him, I knew you could be cruel. She likes him even though he's a horrible person. So here we go. We're not requiring much acting from Clive, that here. He does say, yeah, I have the pick of the women. So I think he's really pushing his boundaries there. blank you. Yeah, awful. Own a falling creep. Oh, yeah, that really gives an insight, doesn't it? Yeah. To think I almost threw up everything. That's a revelation. Oh my god, here we go. Death by syringe. I don't know if this should be in Doctor Who. No, well, the ABC sensors clearly didn't think it should. It's also the way she moves. She's got a very pathetic kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So here we go. And it looks like SteadyCam as well. Like, oh, yes, we're just going to walk past. Yeah, we'll just nothing to see here. Wow. Yeah. But then this. She's just got a weapon in her hand. And all the gunge has gone out of it into him. And do we think it's embalming fluid? Do we think that that's what that is? Yeah. So this was cut out of the Australian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's unfair, isn't it? But, you know, he looks down. Oh my gosh, it's got a true pain. That's a revelation. No, it's not, but you always have to pay the entire time. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. Goodbye, Tess and Bika. did love you. Oh dear, this isn't going to go well for her. Jess hands. Why are Daleks italicised in the subtitles for these things? I don't know. No, they should bring back the Century 21 typeface, shouldn't they Peter? Yes. Which had us cuniform mixed. Yes. style to it. For when the Daleks speak. Yes. And convert everything into Rels. I wish big finish to throw some guys. like, oh, how many bells has it been now? It's been forever. So this is one of the endings of part three. Oh. See, I like this too. Like, and the way that he's not looking at the camera. There's something there's something interesting about that choice. Which is actually quite a good end. You're in terrible danger. So he is looking at a camera. It's also one of the instances where the 1st thing Perry says is I've been worried about you to the doctor. Yeah, yeah. is a puppet in this one, isn't it? The head is a puppet. No, no, the head is Terry Malloy. But how does he... So he's sitting on an office chair and swivelling around. Not that far. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And apparently it was very uncomfortable. Yeah, but it's all around. It's fooled me to this day. It's very funny actually. Oh, no, no, because you look, if you're in the close-ups, you can see that you can still see the line between the latex and Malloy's. I assumed it was a 2 shot. So when the head swivels, it was a part. No, no, when the head swivels, it's him swinging round. That's dedication. That's cruelty. Yeah, yeah. But it's really affective, isn't it? Because it helps sell the fact that he's just ahead. James, where was the other end of... It's the bit where Devil says, destroy that DJ. Okay. Both of them actually work. which is not that usual for a four part Colin Baker story, is it? Well, not in season 22. That's horrible. Look at the big bruise on her face. We didn't comment on the bit where Grigory says I'm a doctor and I'll recognise it's the awful thing that Richard talked about earlier when they cut me open and things start plopping out, I'll recognise the function of every, you know, major organ and stuff. I think, really? No, no, no, no, no, no. That's a revelation. You know, despite that, and despite the death by syringe and all of that. I do think this is a strong season. Stronger than some of the ones around it. I've got a question. How about you? I don't think, Glastonic. Is the problem for critics at the time was, Saber's writing was not strong enough, comedically or drily, he, in fact, he's not an even watch. So it isn't necessarily fun. And that's the F factor that I wanted to ask you, but you will today. It seems a good moment as any to ask you. Is this fun? I think that this, I think that the performances and the direction are good enough to kind of paper over that and say what's not good but he's not, he's not super terrible. There are some good moments. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's, but I... I'm just talking about dialogue right now. Yeah, his dialogue isn't good, but no, people are doing their best to save it. And there are some funny jokes here. I think Kara's stuff is really funny. You know, like... Yeah, I just, I guess I think that, that it stopped being, um, a family show and it, so it's the thing that, you know, your mum and dad aren't going to sit and watch with you because they, they'll think it's too gross and off-putting. And, you know, Doctor Who is always a bit like that, I guess, but this is just it turned up to 11. Well, I think this would have been quite fun if it had been an isolated instance. If you'd had like a black humour, gruesome story in a season that wasn't all black humour. Whereas it just feels like it's crystallising everything rather than being a fun aberration. Look, I mean, I don't like, I don't dislike things being black and I really like black humour and stuff. I just don't think this is very good. Black humour is the problem. And also the inverse of what you were saying, where the directors bringing a lot to it is the 2 doctors, where you have actually a pretty decent script, but the director's not bringing anything to it. just left to stand or fall by itself. This shot here of Dove Ross flying. I always got confused by as a kid, I couldn't quite work out what was happening. It's going a little bit beyond what the show can actually achieve at this point. So there's all these elements, kind of mattered onto each other. It just looks like a giant mess. Do you know, I've seen... the DVD? I've seen a version of this story where Davros is not hovering in the air there. He's hovering at the top of the stairs and that's the shop. He's not hovering. at the top of the stairs and speaking down to Orsini. So I wonder if they just thought that didn't work. They've taken Davros from that and plopped him over the top. I don't know. But he was talking from the top of the stairs in the previous shots. Yeah, doesn't quite work. And I can't work out what's happening here. Is that a giant dalek now? What's happening? No, it's just the composite shot. It's related to death. It was supposed to be hovering above them and shooting down on the bit because of the limitations of the production. couldn't make it work. It just goes to show how completely dispensable those characters worth. Or they do is chew up runtime. I mean, I guess what they make the discovery of what's going what's happening with the uh, with the people who are in tranquil repose. I don't know. Well, as with so many say word characters, they're decent enough by themselves, but once they've finished playing whatever role they have in the story, he just, yeah, just dispose of them instantly, they never get a good ending. It's nice that she's sort of been brought into the main action here. I love her delivery. Her great big bomb, like... You fool. It a bomb. It's a great big bomb. Oh, both die. You before me. It's so good. She is just tremendous. Is this her audition piece for Patsy's mother? Pretty much. Get the impression that Eleanor Braun was always slightly too good for anything she was ever in. You remember our 1st gigs were on David Frost with, that is the week that was when she was, well, because she'd been hanging around with Clees and Chapman and the other lads. And she was there as one of the writers and one of the performers right from the early days. I remember her being in bedazzled. Oh, yes. Here we go. It's bomb. It's a bomb. And she just... she turns to him. She's so good. Look at this. And you see, even, even that terrible, say witty and dialogue she manages as well. Ah, that's a revelation. All of it. The way she, he sort of stabs her under the breast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where Leila was taught to strike underneath the breastbone. It's just... So you know where Seward got the name of her character from? A local potato in Rhodes when he was... What, the car potato? Yeah, the cara potato. I thought he'd watched episode 5 of the Keys of Marinace and said oh, I must name a character Kara. And the name Tasmanbika is named for the saint of barren women. Oh, it does sound like a great name, actually. This is amazing. Dalek's being blown up by rock and roll. Can you imagine if they'd gone the whole hog and had sort of ticket to ride or something being played in the background, taking it all the way back to the beginning? They could never have afforded it. Is that the same specific gyrating in the background? inspired on thing? It's not a great death by him. I would have liked Grandmaster Flash. Just for the whole month. murdered him. Yeah, Colin? Yeah, it's nice to see that Colin is not the progenitor of violence in this one. But, I mean, that's the same thing too. He just, like in earlier on in this commentary. I said the doctor comes in and breaks it all, but in fact, does he make any difference to the actual outcome? What has he done? She's kind of wandered around in the world, hasn't he? Yeah. The Daleks are doing it. It's the Daleks turn up and... Yeah, yeah. But then that was a criticism of the early RTD years as well, that the doctor didn't instigate action. But remember that he inspires people to instigate action, and I think that's a strong choice. Yeah that's true. Is why is that why this almost feels like a late Billy story to me almost? Not in the incidental action, but in the setup and the, yeah, no there's only one. Yeah, no, obviously not. But then if you look at the motivations of the characters and the behaviour between them, yeah, the Hartnell was always just just keeping back and letting them shoot it out. Yeah, he doesn't. I mean, Hartnell doesn't become the doctor, really, that the same in the sense that he's the sort of major male lead hero of the show, you know, so he does wander through the world and just try and get out of it alone. Is your carping granny on the settee as they're sitting in the corner because she still owns the house. It's a shame the doctor doesn't get to talk to Kara. Do you know what I like? I like the way that Davros is shot completely differently. Like, he looks, you know, never for a 2nd did you think that Davros in the Perspex tube wasn't Davros? was clearly Davros. But then when you actually see him and his shot from below, And the performance is slightly different. You kind of think, actually, no, no, how can I have possibly thought that was Davros? This is really Dave Ross. Are we going to shoot his fingers off now? Not yet. Everything's blocked so well. You can follow the action brilliantly. Yeah, yeah. Oh look. I'm just excited to be back down in Iron Gron cellar. With exactly the same props from UFO Moonbase. Make the serving wench playing Davros in the tank. Lusty enough they are on that. They really are the props from they are bosses old bits and put bulbs there. So we have ancient in the background. Yeah, the Greek statue. What's that doing? Art? But don't you think these sets look amazing? Oh, yeah. look like they've had a ton of money thrown at them. Yeah. Do they who's that you get a different designer for each story don't you? Yes. This is Roger. I can't remember. Right, okay. Roger somebody. Ah, delicious people. I think the mask is good as well. I do think, you know, just technically it's better than Michael Wishes Mask. We're only getting this writing because Britain starved, almost starved during the war and didn't lose rationing until what, 54? Well, into the 50s. Yeah, I think it was 54. We were only we were only about 4 or 5 years before that, but we never went through the deprivations that they did. So, and the real consciousness that we are paying the victors to not start another war, and that's why we don't have an aerospace industry, and that's why my pick of the week, by the way. we doing pick of the week? Why? It's something that James has lent me, which is summer of rockets with Toby Stevens, whom we own, as his young Maggie Smith's son and Keely Hawes. And it's about the late 50s and British rocket tournamentary and how they were leading the world. But it's done as a soap. really lovely. It's elegant and gorgeous. But no, the sense of Britain had lived through what, in effect, was the effects of a civil war again, without actually finding it on their own soil. But the V2, the fact they saw Von Braun taking the Americans to space, the same man who launched the V2s on them. That anger is still here. I'm actually surprised that it took so long for Doctor Who to be this when this is the British consciousness of the working people who are, you know, lived through this stuff. This should look very familiar. Yeah. I love this. The doctor, you know, said to Perry, I'm sorry about the DJ and... Yeah, that's actually quite a nice little moment for him. Sorry. But there is is is Davros Thatcher? I'm just putting it out there. And now... Yeah, again, I think this is unnecessarily gross as well. Like that. Oh no, that's great. That's a revelation. Action from the doctor. Oh, no. Those guards were actually on point. They're on the doctor, right? Yeah. Oh, on the bits. Oh, chompy, chompy finger boots. I'm glad that we've kept that too. So Julian Bleach has a robot hand. It does, doesn't it? He's the Luke Skywalker of new series. Look at these cheap and tatty models. I think they're beautiful. Are you right? I do love that one that has the little sort of rod. Why are they picking the fingers up and putting them in an esky? No arm in trying. Why does Davros have green blood? Oh interesting. Because there's more copper in it or he's a Spock fan. Yes, he's a he's just cosplaying. Do you mean, oh, no, Khalid's had red blood. We've seen it, yeah. Oh, lots of exterminations, but they can't really fire. Well, I was just thinking that the suffusions of copper sulphates are put through for whatever reason. By the magic of the internet, James, just informed me, the designer on this is Alan Spalding. Oh okay. There you go. Well, he did that marvellous line in tennis accoutrements, of course. Oh, dear. That's why all of Dar Ross's tennis balls are sprayed chrome. You're lucky with the new Dalek colour scheme. They won't sort of neon green. I wonder what else Sable or JNT had wanted to do with the Dartex because you know he would have wanted a rainbow darlic. It would have been out there. Give me, this is probably just the production team going, I think we'll just go this far, John. I think this... You know, that rings a bell. I think they were planning on having multicoloured Daleks for remembrance. Ah, like in the, like in the movies. Like in the fabulous victory of the dialect. Oh, God. I love those. They look like all, they know, they look like all of the ice lolly ads from the 60s again. It's a lovely TV 21 thing. They've got such big asses, though. It's the colour of baked bin sauce. Yum, yum. I love this. Davos is trying all that he can. This is a very long demo, isn't it? Yeah, really extinct. waiting for you and yes. I love that. Wow. I love that Davros goes. Oh that's right. I'm not getting the logic of why the doctor is still alive. He's the star of the show. Hang on, but why has Davros not found? But also, do these Daleks realise it's the dog? No they don't recognise it. No, they just said that it doesn't look like the doctor, yeah. Although Patrick Troughton looked like the doctor. Yes, they recognised. Oh, they had a sneaking suspicion, didn't they? It's an electric moment when they realise who he is. I guess, you know, if you want to be geeky about it, it depends on the dalek timeline, doesn't it? This clearly comes after resurrection, whereas who knows where that comes. Okay. All right. I'll go with that. Even though I never, never, never like those explanations ever. Since Daleks have time travel, which at some point is rudimentary and nasty and at other points is really precise, I guess it just depends. Yeah. how they fiddle with their own timeline. Well, they just nipped out of the DARDIS and... Yeah, not that time machine. The chase is called. Really? That's a revelation. Yeah, Daleks and relative dimension in space. No, really. doesn't say that. doesn't Susan say that she made up? she made that up? No, but she was a 5th columnist all the time, wasn't she? She made up the name. Yeah, she made her time relative dimension space from the initials. So it was called a TARDIS and then she worked out what it was. Oh, okay. I thought it was the other way around. I thought if you meant mean capsule. Why not say? No, but in the dialogue. Yeah. It's confusing dialogue. She says, I made up the name from the, yeah, it is confusing dialogue. You could actually... Just possible that they were making it up as they went along. No. Yeah. It's very convenient. That's the revelation. So it's been ceded. Thank you. In episode one, deliberately. I would like to explude it. Todd, can you come out with that at some point and say, I have a bomb and I would like to explode it. A great I just don't understand why they're all still alive. Is that the ennui, that the rest of the week? What do you mean? Why are they still making this? Well, yeah. Well, that's what we're told to think now? And that's what we were being told was the response we should be having then. We saw that the cancellation, but I just think it was too rapid a change is what you were saying, Peter, too rapid a change too soon. But I don't know that it's actually ineffectual. And I really like the political commentary of it now. Yeah it's angry. It's super, super angry. It's very mid- 80s. It feels the absolute rightest piece of casting or season is putting Alexi say all right in the middle of this. It was one of the angriest and most literate comics of his time and would just talk about all the things that are going wrong and all the rights and services that have been pulled away from the British people. And the fact you're not, you're reading about it because Murdoch owns the sun and the star and you're just, you're going to look at it now. Yeah, same difference. They elect whole governments. control the world. This is very confident, this story. It doesn't feel like series that's faltering. No. I think that rapid change is is it's a focal point that the BBC can use as an excuse. A focal point for the assassin's bullet. But, you know, always become too dark and violent. Let's rest it and rethink it. That's just an excuse. They've been wanting to cancel it for years. If they thought it was too dark and violent, where was the head of drama reading all the scripts saying this is too dark and violent? Exactly. just an excuse. Yeah. Well, I thought that they wanted to save money for breakfast TV or something. And EastEnders. He's dangerous. They needed the budget for a new twice weekly. Super series. But this was making money, wasn't it? It was an extremely short-sighted decision. It was simply that a few of them. wasn't Yentov, was it? We know it was great. No, it was great. There's talk that the 1st mess grade had to clear up when he became controller was to report on his desk that said Warriors of the Deep was unfit for transmission. And that sort of focussed his attention. Was it? Who knows? Have you seen it? I love it. I actually quite like it as well, but there are those scenes where it's clearly a rehearsal, you know, like Janet Fielding thinks she's doing an in camera run through, which ends up getting put to end. Which is true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, green paint all over the set because the merker hasn't had the chance to dry. Oh, and the murker. The name for a certain type of wig. No, that's Merkin. It's marvellous model work. Everything about this story looks like it's had money thrown at it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't, if there was any justice, one of those 2 would have been killed. Yeah, but I think that's part of the thing too. Don't you think that, that, you know. Yes, I do. Yeah. that this is the best we can hope for is people who are terribly morally compromised, kind of survive, I guess. But kind of good at their jobs and so might get the police back on its feet. Yeah. We don't really care though, to be honest. Well, it is feeding the galaxy. Yeah. Yeah. Better be a galaxy. It's all word peril, isn't it? Now, where do we think the doctor is going to take her? I would plump for bezing, Stoke? Basingstoke, the planet Barcelona? and Draculus one five? Yeah, it's a bit cramped on pantro. Why is that? Why did they actually have to cut this? Brisbane? And that's a revelation we'll never actually know. Why did they do that? Because he actually had said Blackpool, which is the next story. Yeah, but you don't have to have that being the next story, just having a nice... Right, but I think J&T made the decision that to freeze frame it on there. You don't know where they're going to be. They've got, you know, they don't know where they're going. And I actually think it's highly effective. It's one, I think it's great. Well, if he was going to see basiled and it's not that effective. But we don't know. I actually didn't. I actually thought that that was an impressive cliffhanger at the time when I 1st saw it. I thought it was great. It was better than about half we'd had this season watching in Australia. That's it. It's not quite the Florana speech, but... You know the word Blackpool doesn't exist anymore. Really? What? It ended up on the cutting room floor and they've lost the footage. Oh shit, the place. Yeah, yeah, that's it. I thought of having a revival. What are you saying? So it was Pat Godfrey for this one as well. And of course, Pat had designed... Yes, Bongan. What a marvellous story that was. I agree. enjoyed it. Well done, the 45% of you who voted for it. It was a good choice. I chose terror of the vervoids, which I think is a fine choice as well. And shorter. I should eliminate on timelash. I will like time watch too. Oh, so do I, but Timelash fun. genuinely good in places. In places and genuine. That might be a revelation to many people. Oh dear. All right. Did I miss something then? No revelations here. Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. We'll be back soon with a very special Christmas episode, and then back in September, probably, with our coverage of series 3. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter. You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody interterra, Jody interterra.com and at Jody interterra on Twitter at our James Bond commentary podcast bondfinger at bondfinger.com at bondfinger on Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter. Until next time, after a lifetime of punching people and forcibly let me try that again. Until next time, after a life of punching people and forcibly pouring Voxnik down their throats, may you retire with no consequences and enjoy the life of a simple farmer. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Good night. Good mincing.