Probably in a Better Place Than When She Started

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast, walking through the marketplace on some planet a 1000000000 miles from Earth. But we're not flight through entirety, not anymore. We're not even human. I'm Nathan. I'm James. I'm Todd. Just a supernova getting sucked out of a black hole at the moment. Happy election day. It's been one hell of a rollicking ride over the last 13 weeks. We've loved, we've lost, and we've been haunted by terrifying mental images of Elton Pope's love life. But we've recovered now and we're ready to summarise what we've learned. Welcome to our series 2 retrospective. So, a little while ago, Nathan and I guested on the Doctor Who Show, and David Kitchen came up with this method of different topics that he put them on little pieces of paper and we had to pick. So I've done this for today, and we've got 3 different topics that the gentlemen here are going to pick from. We've got the cast, Snog Mario Void, and a series 2 in 3 bowls. And we're going to be picking from those for the 1st 3 quarters of this retrospective and then we've got it's a wrap, which is obviously more about mummification. The end of the season. So as the most recent member of the podcast, James, I'd like you to pick first. And one, you just go into... Go for the filth. Oh, you want to snob marry a boy, do you? Go straight for the filth. Well, you do know me. Okay, well, you can go with Snog Mario void is in that bowl, so you need to just find something. They're like tiny fortune cookies, dear listener. Delicious, crispy and full of foreboding. Snog Mario void. Mrs. Moore, Ada Scott or Maeve Griffiths. I don't know who Maeve Griffin is. Okay, Maeve Griffiths. Oh, the children are disappearing. Oh no. From, uh, fear her. That was very good. I think it'd have to be Mrs. Moore because she's just so fabulous. It's not her? You're snogging Mrs. Moore? worried about the tea. Yes, yes. Who are you avoiding? And therefore you're marrying Ida Scott. Well, you would. Very good. And she has a lovely religion. Her sort of quantum Presbyterian religion. They I'm sure they have a lovely ceremony. I just see this as an exciting, you know, bar mini convention to your mother convention. Ah, the wives of series 2. The grannies of Doctor Who. They're not far off, Tom. Richard. Richard. Why don't you pick from the black? The black pole. Yes. I'll put the black pigeon on my head. Stupid boy turtles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Twisted boy. Why didn't they play in like, hello, Colin Neal. Why didn't they play Enlightenment, like an episode of Dad's Army? It was all there. It would have honestly. still podcasting about it. I'm really blind. No, it says here. Rosemary's baby, what does it say? Best adversary. Yes, best adversary of this season. Oh, well, I want to say Billy Piper's teeth, but they haven't reached apotheosis yet. That's such a good question, isn't it? As in the very, very best. Well, it depends on who you are. As a little child, I actually think the graphite squiggle monster was just such a genius concept for a tiny child. You're never going to forget that if you're under 10 and watching that episode. Um, but I think the best adversary of the year has to be bitchy dalek sick. Just because I hadn't seen, I hadn't seen dynasty. I haven't seen Aaron spelling in wear cheese and shoulder pads before as the Scarovian in Promada. They're freaking bitches. God, I love them. I have to default to the obvious, of course, and she's all in black Matt, and Josh, she's gorgeous. I'm surprised that Maureen Lippman doesn't get a look in here. She should. If she, perhaps if she'd just done something more with it. I know, maybe someone else should have that. And but it's really, what I'm thinking is, who do you take away with you in memory? What has really struck? So I'm thinking of point of difference. So again, doing the Dior little black, little black after 5 number and just changing expectations. We've seen Russell do this with everything. I love Mark Gatis's stories. I just wish that they actually got produced on screen as, you know in the full 4 hours that they need. It is this thing, though, where we spend our entire childhood wondering what would happen if the Daleks and Cyberman had a fight. And what we didn't realise would be that it would be just a sort of giant slapdown bitch fight. It's a dynasty end of season in the duck pond. So yeah, so I love Maureen. But no, I think as if I were a child watching this, it would have been that. But you're very right. But like, you're very true when you say that. What do you, what instantly comes to mind? And like for me, it's like the clockwork people from Girl on the Fireplace and the wolf from Tooth and Claw. But as an adversary for me, it has to be the beast and its various incarnations in that two-parter is the adversary of the year for me, right? When I sit down and really analyse and think about it. It's mainly for Gabriel Will's voice. Yeah, it's wonderful, isn't it? But the CG monster looks pretty good as well. What about you, James? Who's your adversary? I think the CG Monster looks good in this better than it did next season in our Torchwood. Yeah. Sorry. Unfortunate series one. Yeah. Like, ooh, we've got this CG monster leftover. Let's paint it great. Look, I would probably have to agree with you with Dalek Sec. Um, just... Yeah, it's the 1st memory, but because it's so tattooed on the frontal lobes. When I was rewatching the series 2 finale, like I was quoting those lines in my head. my husband. But anyway, like I said, I felt like I, you know, not that I was a kid when I was watching I was in my 20s. But the inner child, like the thing that sparks the inner child in me is the thing that makes me remember a Doctor Who, Billy. used to watch it. Yeah. I felt like I was, you know, an 8 year old and that was just the best thing in the world to me. Like the sort of SmackDown, you know, you are better at dying. Pest control. Yes, right too. Excellent. All right. Please pick from the far bowl. This one over here, which is this is about the cast. The cast. Oh, Sarah Jane Smith and K9. I found myself absolutely touched by K9's return and bawling my eyes out at the end. Resurrection? Yeah, yeah. But I do have some reservations about that episode and about Sarah Jane Smith's depiction. And um, I was chatting to Johnny Spandrel about this, who is not a fan of this episode. And he really dislikes the way that Sarah and Rose fight, the way that she's turned into sort of, you know, the doctor's girlfriend. And the way that she is a bit of a loser. And I think we talked about that in the episode. We did, and I had certain reservations too, because I always felt that she would go on to bigger and better things, but instead it's like she spent 20 years in a rut. Yeah, yeah. I mean, she does go on to bigger and better things at the end and we know that that's what happens. And her performance, you know, there are times where it's still that sort of performative 1970s performance which doesn't quite fit into 21st century Doctor Who. But there's times when it is really, really touching and affecting. And I remember at the time thinking that maybe they were cutting around her a little bit, but, you know, her reaction to canine's death is so, so heartfelt and so wonderful. And, you know, like I tear up every time I see it. I mean, you know, she was my 1st companion. I will always love her and, you know, I still was terribly excited to see her back. Look, I agree with everything that you just said. One of the things that I had a problem with was the fact that from here on in, she's always Sarah Jane to everybody, and in my head, I don't know, in my head cannon. She always introduced herself as Sarah Jane Smith, right? And she was called Ms. Smith, but often when the doctor was talking to her, she'd just be Sarah, unless he was on death's door when he would call her Sarah Jane. So I actually really like in the episode, pretendant actually does say Sarah at one point. And it always just grates, I mean, when everybody just calls us Sarah Jane all the time. Like it's just a minor thing, but it's just something from my childhood that I think is a bit of a rewrite. In fact, um, Gita, Rani's mother keeps calling her Sarah in uh, the Sarah Jane Adventures and Sarah keeps correcting her. So she's obviously decided to go with Sarah Jane at some point, but maybe I'm bringing that into it a bit. I wanted to talk about K9 because it's something that when we were discussing this episode, I think we overlooked a lot more because we were talking very much about Liz and that dynamic. And it was really lovely to have him back. And I would have liked it if when the doctor had started him up you would have got halloo master. Like the David Brierly voiced by accident. And then and then he goes, oh, no, that's the wrong setting and then gone to John Leeson. would have been kind of nice. Sorry, I just thought I'd throw that in. Let's re-edit it. James? Yeah, I think we raised this at the time when we did school reunion. Yeah, I think we all had a problem with the Sarah being bitter and heartbroken by her sort of parting from the doctor and mourning that relationship for 20 years. I think you can wreck on that because The parting of them in had a fear is not something she will, you know, she doesn't want to leave. They have a they have a bit of a hissy fit to each other. Well, she has a hissy fit at him because he's ignoring her and then and then he throws her out the Tartars, is, you know, like you can kind of understand that. But I think I raised this at the time, the, the, you know, they wanted to make her an alcoholic. Yeah, yeah. I think what we got was so much better. I think that would have probably killed the character. You may not have actually got a spinoff series if you've gone with it. The 1st time I saw this was sitting next to, as I'm doing right now, to the lovely Todd. And we saw it at the group viewing it. And, well, I mean, just it's very hard to see through a windscreen visor of tears, isn't it? But I remember we were talking about this and certainly I felt at the time watching this. I love how Russell always writes himself into his into those he most loves. So of course she was going to be an alcoholic and washed up and embittered. No, I loved the embitteredness because again, as you say, none of us were happy as small children with the way she was left. And we all thought, of course she's bitter and angry, and of course she had everything and she was dropped. She was booted out. And there was a more fraternal relationship between them. They were never the, the, the relationship that Rose has. But then again, I really love Liz's take on the slightly Mary Poppins school mom, take that she takes. Oh, good for you, tiger. And she says to no, she really handles Billy Piper very, very nicely, as in, you know, both as an actress and as a character. They have a lovely way of working off each other. It was really good to see for someone who hadn't worked on television for so long, just how quickly Liz got to the pace and picked it up. I was a bit worried for her. That 1st time when Todd and I was sitting there together watching it, we just couldn't really see it because it was all just, oh this is just everything. It really was. was everything. To have you, to have you such a big part of who you loved as a little child to come back on screen is very powerful. It's you know, it's one of the biggest acting jobs she's had in 20 years. And you can you can see that, like you say, it's that sort of presentational 70s acting style. But she picks it up really quickly. Very quickly. By the end of that story, I think she's kind of got the pace of it. And then when she gets her own series, she's amazing. Yeah, she's back in the swing, you can see that journey in that episode. I think really on a personal level. It's more about the fact that, you know, in the end, she got her reward. Yeah. And I think that's really it touches you. You did, yeah. Okay, it's my turn to choose. And guess what? It's up to snog, Barry, avoid. I was trying to avoid this, needle. Just have to snuggle Marritt instead. Okay, here we go. Snog barrier avoid. Gareth, Matt, or Christian Arthur. Bracket, the guard from the Impossible Pianus. He had a name? No, that's his real name, not. I looked it up. So I guess, come on, Todd, you're snogging. I'm stogging. Which one's Matt? I even wrote this and I forgot which one's the dark-haired one? I thought the dark-haired one was prettier than the other one, so I'm calling him Matt and the other one, Gareth. All right, so the less pretty one I'm avoiding. Yep. I shall obviously snore Gareth, and then, well, the guard in the Boston Planet looks like I'm marrying him for all the right reasons. Non-stop access to that, don't you, Todd? Yep. Gareth is Adiola's boyfriend. Right. And Matt is the one that they lure in afterwards. I think. Well, I've answered the question. And I can't believe I cannot believe people. I pulled this one out of them. Two relatively pretty boys, lucky you. Was the guard attractive? Can't remember. Yes. Have another listen to that episode. You need to... Oh, is he the one with the package? Apparently. All right, James, you're up. and you are up to the black bowl here on series. I'm reaching deep into the ball. Inter Valentine dials, black bowl. Why did we choose this bowl? It's a big black ball. I have picked out favourite moment from the season. Look, I think my favourite moment from the season, just because it has so much emotional residence, because we've grown to love her and I'm probably stealing your favourite moment, Nathan. is the moment when Jackie and alternate Pete. Oh, God. in the series finale. And, and there's that whole sort of comical interplay and then they just end up sort of running and jumping into each other's arms and like, it's wonderful. It's just beautiful. such an amazing. I was in tears the whole time. and they're both, they're both saying to one another, no, you're not my real wife, you're not my real husband. this isn't going to happen. And you're kind of thinking that's such a stupid science fiction concede who cares for God's sake. And just while you're thinking that they run into one another's arms. It's beautiful. And it fixes Rose's family. You know, there's a wound at the heart of Rose's backstory, which is her father died when she was little and the doctor fixes it inadvertently, but he does leave her better than he found her. Nathan? Well, I might choose another Jackie moment then in that case. And it is Jackie and Elton at the Laundret in Love and Monsters. And it's a wonderful scene because Elton's gone in with instructions from Victor Kennedy about how to strike up a conversation with a normal human being. And as he's thinking about all of the instructions in his head Jackie actually does it, each one of them 1st because Jackie is a normal human being who knows how to have relationships with normal human beings. And that whole scene and much of that episode was written in order to give Jackie Moore to do. And I think Brendan may have said that the original plan was like not to have Jackie at the end of the season in our universe, that she wouldn't be there, but Russell definitely definitely wanted to give her more to do in Love and Monsters, and she's wonderful in it. And that scene is so funny and just so wonderful. And the 2 of them just spark off each other. And it's a showcase for Camille. So I'll go with that. Excellent. Richard? Well, there's never been anybody else, has there? There's been a reason, Delphon eyebrow. If we're talking about most memorable moment, yeah, I agree. It does have to be the supporting cast, he also gets, Russell gets in, it's a standard Broadway way of writing that your subcast, you know, your, your Karen and Sean, Jack, yeah, Jack, from, you know your Bcast is always more fun. You know, your Niles and Daphne are always more fun than Frasier who's a scary man anyway. And back this year, weirdly. So, yes, anyone, any of the bees. I love the arc of Mickey. Yeah. Really enjoyed that. But yes, whenever Camille came on screen. I feel like as if I've been kind of pontooned into this by Nathan's constant glorification of, and rightly so. But no, it just, it highlights, you know, it makes us look at this. But yes, it is. It's probably. I mean, it's a lovely moments where they chuck over those undeniably ostentatious urns in Satan Pitt. you think, well, they had to go anyway. It's dreadful. But no, I do agree that Camille coming back in that little moment you know, as I just said, well, hardly anyone else. It really works, really works. Again, for a lovely sense of he understands what people are watching these things for. It really does actually feel like an operetto, or maybe even elevate that, but it could work as a Broadway show. Russell's Doctor Who under the tenet area. It is. Literally kinky boots out for heels. These are all wonderful moments and I agree with all of them. But I do feel that there are 2 moments that I really touch my heart. One is goodbye, Sarah Jane Smith. And that whole sequence is just... It just warms my heart when it appears from behind the... Yeah, but leading up to that and that way... It's that thing where the doctor doesn't want to say goodbye. He wants to brush it off and she won't let him. She makes him say goodbye properly and it's so good. She's great in it. And it also works that she's older than him too, and she has some kind of authority over him. So she won't let him get away with that sort of the crap that he got away with back when he was Tom Baker. She makes him say a proper goodbye to her and it's wonderful. And it's wonderful also because Dave Attendant's such a fan of the series, you know, and there's a lot of subtexts there in all of his scenes with her. That is just an amazing. I don't think he's acting at all. The other moment is at the end of Army of Ghosts, when the Daleks actually appear, just suddenly appear, because you know that it's them or you're 99% certain, but then when it's confirmed, your brain as a fan is going, oh, my God, they're doing Daleks in the side in the one story. Yeah. I think the music queue, the Dalek music queue appears just seconds before the Daleks do. How we didn't realise, I don't remember when I realised during the episode that it was going to be them. But it's a giant Dalek ball. But I didn't make that connection. No, they 1st watched... I've only just made the connection now. I just kind of went, like rewatching it for the podcast. I went, Benmark. How did I not see that? It's literally a Dalek fear coloured in the same way. It's so it's so bloody. So ballsy. But at the time, at the time, like, when the Simon's saying, it's not our thing and that's the thing, and it's a big round ball thing, like, I remember going to myself, it's got to be the Daleks it's got to be the Daleks, wanting it to be the Daleks. It's actually the same moment, isn't it? Where in, um, is it parting of the ways where the Emperor Dalek says, no bad wolf has nothing to do with us? And you kind of go, wait, there's a mystery we thought we had that sorted and now it's opened up again. And the fact that the ball has nothing to do with the cyberman is the same beat, isn't it? Like Russell does that very well at the end of most of his seasons that we've been leading you down this path. Flip. Yeah, he'll do it next year. We'll talk about it then. Yeah, probably in a much more successful way with series three. I would have liked to have been a giant egg and a giant cybermat come out. fantastic. All right, let's move on. Richard, you're up next. It's imagining how to go for the next. Maybe it's a giant yeti control scene. Oh, why can't I stop it. No amount of harpic or get rid of them, will it? I'm really keen to have Jody menaced by the furry beasts from below the rim. There's an episode title. Never needed one. All right, now I have with my with my roomy old eyes. Oh, I'm happy. It says Jackie and Mickey. I put the, well, we've just really discussed that, but if you want... Well, just to very quickly, again, what I'm saying about the Broadway simulancra of this, which is actually based on Jewish musical traditions, our French Joseph Toltz has written on this that really the whole thing where we can see Doctor Who this season is actually based very much from very old stories. And in fact, really old stories the way over, here I go on my trope, again, we get to ring a bell. I guess if you talk about social stories or mythologies that you have cast of characters, I mean, Tolkien does it really well. We now know, we have to say Tolkien, not Tolkien. Oh, really? Yes, the new film coming up. We say Tolkien. But I really like the arcing of that. And if you like the raising of the holy fool character or the slightly simple character who becomes the hero at the end is very much a part of musical tradition and Jewish storytelling. And now we have it in Doctor Who. I like how Mickey becomes part of their family. I can't believe that they're still boyfriend and girlfriend. They're virtually kind of brother-in-law. Well, not, are they? And she says, I'm not up the duff. I love that. She's got this few precious moments to say goodbye to the doctor and she pranks him twice. It's so wonderful. But I just, it's that family and that relationship in particular over 2 years has been the most interesting one on the show because it's, it's not very well sketched when we 1st see them. I don't think Jackie and Mickey really interact in Rose, but then in aliens of London, she's been, you know, sticking flaming bags of dog turds on his on his front doorstep for 18 months because she thinks that he's murdered Rose and then they grow together they fight the sabine together. And then it's so touching in Love and Monsters again, which I'm currently obsessed with because I'm in the middle of editing the episode, where she talks about how she had a mate who used to come around and help her out and he's gone. And it's so beautiful. Like, that relationship is so sweet. And, you know, everything's about Rose and how, Rose feels and how am I going to cope with you gone? She says to Mickey when he leaves at the end of the sidemen 2 parter. But what about Jackie? You know, um, Rose isn't home, but Mickey was at home and she's lost him and it's heartbreaking and just lovely. It's my favourite relationship, maybe in the era. It is incredible. how these 2 supporting characters grow. And watching this season, I realised up until Love and Monsters. We don't really have a lot of Jackie at all. We've got fake Jackie, but her screen time is very minimal, but her presence is there throughout, and it's testament to the writing and it's testament to the performance, just how strong it is. And I'm just so pleased that that 2nd last episode in the season she really gets to be the Doctor Who companion and she has her time to shine so brightly in it. Camille is just the best mum in the show and has not been topped by any, or even come close to anybody. since. I think Jackie King is very good but I still agree with you. Oh, in fact, I like all 3 RTD. Mum's a great deal, but Camille is obviously just my 1st love and maybe my favourite character. Ian Dr. Hooji. Nathan, Snog marry a void. Um, all right. Oh. Oh my god. Oh, and just loving monsters again. So Snog Mary Avoid, Victor Kennedy, the Azorbilov, and the Ursula Brick. I originally had the hoics or whatever it was, but I thought, I don't want to snog the hoics because those teeth are massive. They're bigger than Billy Piper's, and that's really saying something. It does seem to be a competition this year for the monsters to outdo Billy's tea. No, would you want to marry it? No, I think, I mean, you know, Elton's a nice man. and he virtually marries the Ursula Brick, so I'm sure that that's probably a good choice. So, um, Well, I'd have to avoid Victor Kennedy because he's got eczema and I'd get sucked into his backside, like poor old Bliss. And so I'm afraid. Very misnamed character, wasn't it? There ever was one. So I'll have to snog the... No. Yes, I'll have to snog the absorblov. Marry the Absorblov. Who are you marrying Ursula? I'm snogging the absorber off. Marrying Ursula. A lifetime of misery. Well, no, she's very happy. She's a brick. All right. Oh, it's me. Okay, what is the series arc? For you? What do you think of it? I was once on a podcast with J.R. Southall, and he said that the difference between Moffatt's series arcs and RTD series arcs. Is it RTD's ones are purely science fiction? So it's like the parallel universe and the Cyberman and staff, as opposed to, say, the hybrid, which involves the doctor and Clara or whatever? I can barely remember those arcs, to be honest. But here, for me, the series arc is what we've talked about. It's Rose, Mickey and Jackie and to some degree, Pete. It's the restoration of Rose's family. Like Rose is neglecting all of those people. She's lost her father. She's neglecting Mickey and Jackie. in order to run off and do something very inadvisable with the doctor. And she doesn't make a choice. She doesn't get to make a choice, but she does end up, I think probably in a better place than when she started. So for me, that's the arc. So it's interesting because you might think it's to do with torture, with the fact that that's throughout everything and torture, but it's coming, but really that's more of a device, not what the undercurrents are. And I remember we were talking to Stephen B from New to Who. And for him, this series, from what I understand, is a love story. And that's his arc. But I think I would agree more with you that it's about the restoration, the family. The love story arc is there for Rose for most of it, there's a few episodes where it perhaps isn't, which is an inconsistency which Doctor Who does. And I can see that point of view, that it's her love story. The doctor can never quite, this is as close as the doctor ever gets to love with anybody. Besides perhaps River, song, but she's not really a companion. So, I think what you've said about the fact that it's the restoration of this family is, in fact, the ark, even though you might on the surface think that it's about torchwood or it's about a love story with rose. It's actually, I would agree with you. James, Richard. I would agree with you on that. I think the Torchwood Arc is more just a series long promotion for a spinoff series. If only we'd got the spinoff series based on Tortured One instead of Torture 3. We might have enjoyed that a bit more. That's a whole other topic. When are we doing the tortured podcast? We're not doing that. But I would have loved Samantha Briggs to have shown up. I think I gushed about this at the time, but the torture audio is where they bring back Tracy and Cyberman are fantastic and it just makes me wish that they'd actually just done a series based on the torture in Doctor Who, not that tortured and tortured. I just wonder whether there's that much there. Do you know what I mean? Like it introduces torchwood, but torchwood is just a name that's dropped. And that's how the previous arc worked. You know, we had bad wolf just as a thing that got mentioned. And then we discover in the final episode that that's a thing that Billy has sent backwards and seeded throughout the season herself. I would have watched the hell out of that if that had been a spinoff with green, tight-suited, lycrid, tennis ball hat man. Josh, the werewolf. poke your eye out with a tennis ball werewolf. Yeah, I would have watched it that every fricking week. Oh, so let's talk about the things that were disappointing. Oh, did you get the best one? So the pit. So the pit we talked about this a couple of weeks ago where the pit opens at the cliffhanger and the camera climbs out of it as if something's coming to get Ida and the doctor. And of course, it turns out that it was just the camera because nothing actually comes out of the pit. So sorry, just to clarify, you've picked things that disappoint. And I called it the pit. I think what disappoints Auros Lynn's 2 episodes, so that's the Lantern and fear her, I think they're too similar. You know, like I like Doctor Who does domestic. I like a small scale thing. I get the idea. You know, it's not a big Doctor Who adventure. Austin also did tooth and claw though. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. See, that's good. But I do think the other two, which were in one block and for one terrifying moment, were going to be aired consecutively. And I just don't think either of them is as good as it should be. And I think Idiot Scientists better than the other one, but Idiot's Lantern, we said in our episode, was marred by that terrible performance from Eddie, who was just terrible. Yeah, I think I think those 2 episodes, to me, come across as the cheapest of the year, especially Fear Herb, which I'll have more to say a bit later. That's interesting when I listened to your podcast on the Idiot's Lantern, I came away liking the episode a little less. And it's the only episode this year that I actually liked a little less. Everything else was either the same or better. So, yeah. that's probably the most disappointing aspect Well, the thing I pulled out of one of the bowls was moment you'd rather forget, which... It's the same thing to that, doesn't it? I think it has to be the paving stone fellatio scene. worst album cover. It's just, it just doesn't fit into the show that you're making. It's a snide. I'm almost an undergraduate humour. Taking a stab at the show we love, yeah. and putting wrong humour tones. And just cheapening the relationship that's built up between those 2 characters for the whole episode. I actually don't I don't know what you're talking about, James. They snog. They have a bit of a love life. They still snog. I don't know what on earth you are thinking. Doctor Who does not do Snide World. It shouldn't ever go down there. Richard. Oh, I've got what your one was just, again, disappointed. I've got a favourite guest star. I could say most disappointing guest star, but maybe often. Sometimes often that's the same thing. Isn't it? I'm just saying no one's really disappointed me this season. Even Eddie was a blustering fallen in Idiot's Lantern. It probably is my favourite story just because it's what I listen to all the time, you know, the 50s nonsense on the radio. Even he fits nicely because he's so... Again, it's looking in Doctor Who from maybe even a wider angle is that when they don't give a resolved or fully realised performance. I look at it and I think, well, that's what a lot of people are actually like, completely undiscovered of their own internal territories and completely unable to register any truths of themselves or anybody else because they just don't know who they are themselves. So I think that actually the inconsistencies in performance in that story make it work really well. And I love Ron Cook and I love Maureen Lippman. So again, Maureen, mini is actually my favourite guest in this. Because it's just what Nathan and I would have done, given 3 quarters of a chance and half a Lippy between us. It's my turn to do the stare. Favourite guess wise. agree with you. More in Lippin. And mainly because what I discovered after we did that podcast. What agony? Agony. Wasn't that exciting? I think delving into her back catalogue, that sounds a bit more... It makes me love her even more, having found her previous work and like Nathan and I binge watched Agne at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were texting each other and finishing episodes sort of minutes apart. I've still got to get and watch it that I'm in now, thank you. I wish I hadn't watched Agony again afterwards. It's a bit terrible. Though her gay son. should I have said that? It's quite sweet. Yeah. She is certainly a standout. in that episode and something that sticks in your mind. I just wish you'd done the Gabriel Wolf voice as well. hungry. My favourite guest star of the year is Elizabeth Slater. Oh, yeah. Fair enough. Mine's Ida. I think Ida Scott in the Satan Pitt is incredibly good. Yeah, I don't see Liz as guest. I see her as core cast. Yeah, she's family. Yeah, She's too terrible. She's a recurring character. In fact, really, she's got more right to be there than any of the others. Even David Tennant. Well, exactly. The other one I would then choose is Queen Victoria. Oh yeah, yeah. Samantha Briggs. Let's move on to It's a Wrap, which is about end of the season, so I'll go with Nathan. Okay, let's see what comes out of this. I can't remember what I put in here. Oh, we need Jenny Ladd Award nominations. We've been doing a few of those already, haven't we? Kind of, but I've neglected. It's a Mayor Cooper for me. I've completely forgotten about the Jenny Laird Award and I think I'm happy to see it reinstated from here on. I think the most puzzling creative choice was giving something like Idiots Lantern and Fear Her, to our Oslin, who's not great with actors, who's very good with action and moving the camera around and stuff like that, but isn't that great with actors, and those are stories that absolutely live and die by the quality of the act, because because they're the cheapies, and because they're all about family interactions and stuff like that. And I think the acting needed to be better in both of those. James? Well, I was going to say the scribble monster from Fear Her, but we love that. But you can actually say that, James. if you want to. I'll draw all over Richard's point from earlier in the episode has swayed my opinion on that. I think you're right. Like as a child, big scary dirty in the closet. I mean, there's a whole lot to take away from it. Yeah, actually the big scary daddy in the closet is actually quite horrific. It is. Any little child who fear to, you know, oh, let's not go there because there's a whole lot in this story. yeah. It's a pity that fear her doesn't quite hold together direction wise. Is that what it is? It's the direction. Because I feel it is a strong story. And honestly, as a viewer, I don't get the connection between idiots lantern and fear at all. I can see it in construct and looking from, but when you're in there, it's just, oh, no, it's all, it's completely different. Because, I mean, Doctor Who only has how many stories did we defined in the three? There's 12 stories in the universe and 3 on Doctor Who. But no, I think I think you're right. Like, it appeals to the child. And that, that, so, so I'm not going to say that. I'm going to say David Tennant's teeth. Okay. Thank you. Richard. Well, I'm going to take the Nathan stick and go for go for the very wine view, the satellite view of the series. I think my journey Laird award might be for production. Oh, can I go this far? Production arcing tone from season one to season two. I feel we've actually gone from Ridley Scott to James Cameron. And I know that that's the way the series will go forever on and it guarantees bums onseatsuccess.com. But I really love the portmanteau talented amateur approach to season one, though, what the hell are we doing running by the skin of our pants, Heath Robertson? Let's just bundle it all together and do something whimsical and magical. When Disney was actually still fun to corporate Disney, which we now have with this season, that everything's been studied, and it's all been looked at through the lens of a viewscreen rather than a monocle, and it's been it's suited. It's suited and tied and it's proper. And I know what it's doing. I can see where it's going and I don't like the sense of the construct. The form is lovely, but formulaic is not Doctor Who. This is why I still love the Graham Williams era. And anything that Douglas Adams did, it's still my go-to for viewing because it's dangerously untidy. And I sort of miss that. I absolutely agree with you. And I don't know whether I've said this recently, but the thing about series one is that they don't know that it's going to be successful. No, you really don't. But when they're making it, they've got no idea of what the reaction is, they go into series 2 knowing that this is going to be the biggest show on TV and they know that fans will put up with a whole lot more fanboyness than they were prepared to do in series one. So series one seems to me to be super experimental in a way that series 2 isn't. And I really feel that I think you've expressed that really well. This is all very metal. I was going to say that this week. We not up to Moffat yet. Because I go for much more obvious things. I've got multiple nominations. I'm just going to start. The entire terrible London Olympics from fear her. Well, yeah. The old grand from fear. Oh, she was my favourite. I was her, let's say. My name's Chloe Webber. From Fear Her. The mother from Fear Herb for ruining. Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree. She did ruin it. Mary, Mary King of the Bushes. He. Todd's going to give this story a three. Eddie Connolly from Idiot Lantern. John Lumick. Oh yeah, he's bad. From the 1st Simon and 2 Parter, and Ricky, from The Cyberman 2 Parter, played by Noel Clark, is also in my nominations, because he just gives angry sex face the entire episode, and I hate that creative puzzling choice. James and I are clutching each other. Yes. Where is my Noel Clark angry sex face? I had to say this, I think, Noel, it's Mickey. I'm just ignoring. ignoring, I'm ignoring. Sorry, I'm just ignoring everything that you've just said. You know, that whole thing when they growl when they, oh, I know, I love angry sex first. I know that you're listening. Are we allowed to say angry sex face on the podcast? It's going to be the time. Tag. You always approach these with such professionalism and they always demount into blanc mange, don't they? They do. I'd like blame out... Look, you had a really good discussion about why he was like that in the bravado that he was putting on. I'm not sold. And I think Noel's performance as Mickey is so nuanced in that story. As a contrast, I find that other performance one note. So I'm putting it up for a nomination. So they're all my nominations. But surprise, surprise, they're not the winner. that Jenny Eledwald goes to the end of Love and Monsters turning Ushua into the brick, which I really dislike. I don't know how you could get around it. He's never going to be able to move on with his life. And I just think that she should have had a moment with him and died. And I just think it was the wrong choice. And that ruin, that ending ruins that story for me. You have to remember that when I 1st saw this story, I gave it a one out of 10, right? And over the years, I've actually grown to love so much of it. But when it gets to that, it just... We actually are recording this on the weekend that I'm editing and releasing the Love and Monsters episode. So I'll be interested to hear what you think of it. Everyone listening to this now or many of the people listening to this episode now will have heard that episode already and our take on what happens to Ursula and that very objection, that it would have been better if she died. So we do talk about that and have a listen to it because I was surprised by where that episode of FTE ended up going. See, to me, that story is the 6 out of 10 and that's because of the ending. You know, and I used to hate it. But now I really love so much of it. all the Jackie Elton stuff and all that team. But it just, at the end, just is ruined. And for me, that's my Jenny Letterboard. Sorry, Russell, but you get it. Yeah, well, you've been wrong before. Rarely, Nathan. Rarely. Oh, Todd. What do you think of series 2 now? What do you think of series 2 now? As opposed to back as opposed to back then. back then I just saw it as a wonderful romp. And we were terribly excited. There's the thrill, the Elan of never having seen something before. And we watched a lot of these, if you recall, back at Nathan's house with Todd in the room, so no one was allowed just... We watched them very carefully. We did, and which is not something we do anymore because we've got laptops and flip tops and duck hair and everything else that we all do, you know, it's all very post-David Tenet. I don't go back to these now. It's interesting, isn't it? But the thing that I really, really, that I have enjoyed watching again this season is the arcing of characterisations and the musical comedy sense of it again. So, yes, I think we've touched on all of those people of import. I do like the variants in tone. I do like that we jump from tooth and claw. Then we get Satan Pitt, we get a whole lot of lovely things that if we think back to our childhoods, we remember Doctor Who being as good as this, if not a little bit better, but it really wasn't. You'd sort of have to wait 3 years to get everything that we've had in one year, it does feel like 3 years worth of stories. So, if I think of it, no, I see it as far more polished than I would remember it because they've put more time into it. But again, it doesn't quite have the sense of newly discovered joy the freshly hatched feeling that the year before. I'm interested to see what comes along for season 3 and how I feel about that. It's interesting because this of the 1st 5 seasons of Doctor Who's always been my least liked. And it came down to the cyberman stories, which I really rated quite averagely. And all of those episodes, especially the 1st parts of both of the 2 partners. I've just really have enjoyed so much more, like 9 out of 10s whereas they were 7 before. And that's really impacted on my enjoyment of this season. And all of the stories bar, fear her and Idiots Lantern, have in some way increased in my mind. So it's really been a rehabilitation of this entire season in the arc for me. I think I remain sort of more or less unchanged. I feel the way that Richard and I were talking about the relationships between series one and 2 that there's something a bit less exciting about coming at it for the 2nd year. But I think I've also said this year that as well as writing it confident in the fact that it'll be well received, they are also writing it, having learned what worked and what didn't work last year. And so Series one has a very, very special place in my heart. But I think series 2 is is very good and I think I probably always have thought that. Do you have anything to add, James? Look, I think that series 2 is not it doesn't have as much joy and spontaneity in it as series one. It is more polished and it is more consistent for the most part. I think they've worked out what works for them stylistically and what works with the way that the show is structured now. Um, There are a few episodes that don't quite fit or um, don't quite gel in the, in the way that you'd like them to, but overall it's a much more level season. It doesn't have the highs and lows that parts of series one had. But, um, I think it it lacks something because of the, the lack of sort of less throw everything and the kitchen sink at it, which series one had. like we've got to make this a success. We just have to, you know, let's give it an arrow. Whereas I think they're a bit more relaxed there. And you end up with something which is probably a bit more... See, I think this has got a lower load in fear her. I don't think there's anything as close to that as the previous season. That's my only difference of opinion, perhaps there. All right, here's here's a topic for you. Daleks or Cyberman. I think this is an old age one where Doctor Who fans of classic Elk. Are you a Spider-Man person or are you a Dalek person? You could be both, but for me, I've always been a dialect person which is why this season perhaps suffered a bit because it was the cyberman. I really never really enjoyed a lot of the Sidemen stories in Classic Who as much as I enjoyed the Dalek stories, although Revenge of the Side of them, I really enjoyed. But for the side of them, that's more than the side women. But it was really interesting discussions that you had during the year in the podcast talking about the fact that this year the cybermen have got back to actually being cybermen and converting people, which is something that never really happened from the 70s onwards in Doctor Who. So I actually found them a lot more disturbing this time around. But I'm still a Dalek person over a cyberman person. Well, I mean, the sidemen are very much after the moon base, just the monsters that come along when Terry Nation's in LA trying to flog the dialects. And so they always have that sort of 2nd rate sort of feel to them. And so I think that Russell does a tremendous job reinventing the Cybermen, and I think the stories, the Cybermen stories are great here and he really gives the Sidemen a shot in the arm, which then Moffatt will go on to do much later as well. But yeah, it's the Daleks. Well, I refute your heteronormative binary condition. in this and I think you can actually have everything at once. And again, I only, I don't really have a preference, but I like them when they're both together at the end. And then it proves to me there's sort of the, why that is such a special moment. Okay, I'm going to meta the hell out of this, is that, right at the end with Doomsday, you see the antagonists, you see the threat do we say ostensible threat from another bingo point to this? I hope you've got your card there because we've covered a lot of them today, is that they're both ineffectual, numbing and numbed themselves and with such very small apertures to life. They are pretty much having just gone through an election that I don't feel very comfortable about. Some of our listeners are still going through Brexit and we have other listeners who are dealing with what's happening in the US and I feel wherever we are, we have to remember that those that wish to threaten and control, when we look at them from a great enough position standing back. And I'm thinking about some of the camera angles they got with that crane in that massive loading dock hall, with the big Dalek ball, James. And yes. Thank you. All of that is that you could see actually how small and futile and such hurt little 2 year olds. They all are, both the Daleks and the sidemen, and that it's really just representing such a very small part of ourselves that is only large when we allow it to be. It's why they scream, isn't it? It's why the Dalek scream. Yeah. Yeah, that really, these valuable lessons to try against microcontrol against trying to tell others what to do. isn't that really what Russell's been telling us all the time? Enjoy your messiness. Enjoy your rust. You know, but Liz and I and K9 have quite a bit of rust on us and I'm celebrating it right now. James Heidman or Daleks or both or neither. Well, I refuse both. I choose I choose the axles. Axons. I love the axel. Why hadn't they been brought back? Well, they were. painted green. No, they were too. Yeah, look, I mean, the Daleks in this happened. Yes, look, there are all these fun stories, but there's so much more to this show than those 2 enemies. There's so many more stories that you can tell. I find those stories often very limiting. I enjoy them. But what can you do after you've done the invasion plotline, the you know, loss of humanity plotline? What else is there? Okay, we're heading towards our final 2 topics. The 1st one is David Tennant and Billy Piper. Battle of the teeth. And that's our title. It is like an Ultraman episode, isn't it? Do they work together as well as Eccles and Billy did? I think they work better. I think they do work very well together. Different pictures. is, yeah. Because they're friends. By the end of series one, nobody's a friend with Christopher Eccleston. You do get that sense, don't you? But I really like that. But watching it, I find that tension really interesting. The doctor is a loner. He's a deeply unhappy, lonely person. I'm right here. And I feel that I feel that that just lends so much grit and weight in my in past stories. The one where Tom says goodbye to Liz, the one where Pert says goodbye. without even looking them in the eye. without even looking them in the eye. They're the precious moments for me, Todd. But you're quite right, Richard. Like we've got the same situation with Sarah Jane Smith and the 3rd doctor, that dynamic. I love that dynamic. But it's very different to the 4th doctor and Sarah Jane. It's the same with Clara and the 11 and Clara and 12. And I think if one thing I can take away from this is that having a companion with 2 doctors and having like a year with each really all these quick companion changeovers just before a doctor leaves or at the same time, I think you're robbed of something. Yeah. I wish Janet had stayed for 10 years now. I mean, wouldn't Janet have been amazing with Colin, though? Yeah, yeah, just for those. Someone who couldn't bully. Well, it would have been great. But we've all seen that interfix with sometimes. I think one of the things about David Tennant's performance this year is that, and you've hit upon this a number of times, Nathan is that when we're away from it, we go into the default of, yes it's all big hair and his shtick and everything, but you come back to it and you watch these episodes and he, I'm totally entertained by him. Totally in the moment, right? And I'll rubbish him, you know, away from it. It's a bit like what happened with Pertwee in the 90s with fandom is that he got rubbished and then you come back to it and you actually realise this is so enjoyable and you're so good. Yeah. I think that's right. I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing how I react to his performances in series 3 and four. But he has some great moments all the way through. I think we're actually just seeing Mirror Universe. Tom Zero. So he'll be meeting Louise Jamieson next year, won't he? We're counting it. Yes, I wonder how that will go. Any thoughts, James? I think David Turner's a very good actor. But he's limited by, and I think, Nathan, you've said this a number of times before, he's limited by having to do the Cod Cockney Dick Van Dyke accent. And when he's doing a quiet, considered scene, he's brilliant, but when he's doing the doctor shtick. It can be grating. You still enjoy it. I still enjoy all of series two. I think he gets better as he goes further on. Series 4 is still my favourite season, I think, of the new series because of the fact that you end up with Catherine Tate and she's a bloody good actress. I mean, she's, she's, whatever you think of her comedy. I enjoy her comedy. But she's a very good actress and I think, you know, not getting ahead of ourselves. When David Turn is given more to work with, he's very good. He rises to that performance? Yeah. Yeah. He's okay in series two. All right. Well, let's talk about the departing cast member, Billy Piper. I think she's been an absolute, amazing actress these 2 seasons. She sells every scene that she's in, the tears that she can produce and the emotions. We've discussed so much about roses, immaturity and self centredness. But I just have to praise Billy Pipe. But without her being the backbone of these 2 series, with her supporting cast members, the show would just not have survived would not have been a success. That's my opinion. Yeah She's the new series Barbara. No, in fact, Camille, also new series, Barbara. She is an incredible actor, and remember, at the time, it was that sort of usual fan thing. We think it's a recent phenomenon, but fan anger about casting this pop starlers in our very important serious science fiction program. But she ended up being extraordinary. And the big question that the show has now is how does it survive her departure. Because it starts with her. The show is about her and her family and she's about to go and that's going to blow up the entire show and it's just, I remember thinking at the time. What do we do? What can season 3 even be? You've got ESP again because my final question was about season three. What are we hoping to discover and the questions that need to be asked. So you've just answered that. You're right. Like the show doesn't recover until Russell leaves. From, from, from, from the fact he made her so integral to the pot. I agree. I agree. There's a loss. There's a loss that we all feel. Maybe we're meant to feel that. He really is that dark. So you're saying that that sort of hangs over the series until that's all wrapped up in series four? I can serve this series, definitely, with series 3 suffers because everybody's like, who is this Martha who cares? Series 4 is great. But until you bring her back and then write her out completely again with the spare doctor. We're getting ahead of ourselves. No, but just to go on that line, then you get the durning war of this doctor losing his shtick and everything falling apart when he's gnashing his teeth in waters of Mars. I don't care, you know, that if, well, it's a great audition for Hamlet, isn't it? I guess so. Which he was doing at the time. Which he was doing at the time. Yeah, there is that sense of, yes, there's there's the teen warrior, even though he's not a child, but he I definitely get the sense of Tina. Yeah, a Twinkie-Tink. having, having found love, lost it and really never coming to terms with that. And I'm quite serious on the Louise Jamison tone for next season because I suspect I'll be getting someone who's lost what he loved and is going to not be taking it all too well and maybe taking it out on others. You know, for me, it's going to be the rehabilitation of Martha her mother, the master, the 3 M's. the 3 things I'm looking at for next season, which I had problems with at the time. You'll love it, Todd. I know you. Nine out of 10. 9 out of 10 people, 9 out of 10. Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week, and for this series of Doctor Who. We'll be back for Christmas in July with a commentary podcast on the Runaway Bride. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at FlightsRentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter. You can also find our series 11 flashcast Jody Interterterra at Jody Interterra.com and at Jody Interterra on Twitter and our James Bond commentary podcast Bondfinger at bondfinger.com at bondfinger on Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter. Until next time, may you always remember to keep a firm hold on the damn lever, for God's sake. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Good thing. That was Flight through Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, James Selwood, and Richard Stone. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings Performance by Jane Orberg. This episode, probably in a better place than when she started, was recorded on the 19th of May 2019 and released on the 16th of June. We'd like to thank all of the people who joined us this series, Liz Miles, Adam Richards, Stephen and Dan from New to Who, Max Gelbart Simon Moore, and Peter Griffiths. We'll be back soon, but in the meantime, keep watching the teeth. I had 3 more Snog Barrier Boys. We'll do it for the do it for the do it. No, no, tell us what they are. Tell us what they are. Okay. The 1st one was Strong Mary avoid. Toby Z, Zachary Cross Splain, Danny Barton. All three, all of them. Okay. At the same time. At the same time. Nog, then marry, then avoid them. Okay. That's very clever because you may have the same answer to this. Stock Mary avoid. King Louis, Captain Reynolds, Mr. Wagner. Oh, wait, wait, who's Mr. Wagner? The teacher from the other teacher. Oh, the hot teacher from... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he is hot. And my five, all of them at the one time. Yes, and then you snog and then you avoid them. Thank you, James. And then the other one. Just pass them on. No, I meant all six. Which he might want to make it 9 because here's my other one we didn't get 2 Snog Mary avoid. Mickey, Ricky, Jake. Oh, oh, avoid Jake. He's got some very good facial cleansing work done since he's actually looking quite pretty now. I hate the hair. I hate it so much He was really struggling with his acne at the time. No, but I'm talking about his kids' TV presenter here. H from Steps. Here goes.