Subtlety and Undertones

Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety. The only Doctor Who podcast with a LinkedIn profile is varied and eventful as Letitia Jones. I'm Nathan. I'm Pisa. I'm Todd, and I'm a somewhat sidelined, but not miscast regular for this episode. Well, you know what it's like when you fancy someone and they don't even know you exist? Well, that's been our lives for the last 13 weeks. So this is us getting out. But before we do, we'd like to welcome you to our series 3 retrospective. Okay, let's get on with this. Peter, it's your first time here, I think, for a retrospective, so you get to dive into the box of delights, first of all. I'm very excited about this. Box of delights. Hopefully it'll be something like Kinder, yeah? You cleaned that up beautifully. All in the family, Martha's siblings, Tish and Leo. All right, let's discuss. Um, well, Goo Goo, Mabatha Raw is fabulous as Tish. I understand she might have been in the contention to play Martha as well. Like originally? Yeah. And of course, she's gone on to have a stellar career. I think she, anytime she's on screen, it's clear that she's going to be, you know, something special and go on to do big things. Leo, what a shame he's not a morgue. He got such a cute little face on him, but I think he was a CBC presenter at the time or something along those lines and his availability was not huge. And so that's why he's not in the last 2 parts or if he had have been, it might have made those bit more full. So I think the idea was that he was going to do the Thomas Milligan role, wasn't he? That he was going to welcome her on the beach or something like that. Yeah, which would have been kind of nice because he was a little bit of a sort of silly goofball in Lazarus experiment and, you know, gets hit in the head and falls over and stuff. And he's just terribly sweet. And it would have been nice to give him a chance to be sort of heroic. I think it is someone else in the window when the doctor looks in at the very end, it's not. Doesn't he get that one? I thought it was him. Does he not get one scene, does? where he's strolling along the beach? Yeah, yeah. in Brighton and he manages to kind of escape the, you know, it's not the talent. Yeah, that's right. I think coming back to this, I enjoy both of them and I'd forgotten, you know, perhaps how comedic he was in that episode. I think it's a shame that Martha is a one and done companion because we've missed the opportunity to actually possibly see a sibling go in the TARDIS and experience what the companion goes through and actually have a shared experience. We never had that in Doctor Who. She's the only companion really in Doctor Who that actually has a family. I mean, Yaz now has a sister. I mean, I think the closest we ever got was Brett Vion and Sarah Kingdom back in 1965. I mean, honestly, recasting that. But, you know, if you think about it, you know, educate a brother who died. Turlo had a brother who was just there to get rid of him. Lisa had a father. don't know what happened to him. But so many Leila had a father. Yeah, but... had a talented brother as well. I guess the thing is, so many 2 companions, either only siblings or orphans or they have like a distant relative. I mean, I know Tegan had a 1000 relatives, but actually to have a sister or a brother go into the Tartars, you know, with the companion. I think that would have been great. And I think they're both very capable actors, actresses. Google, I think, is spectacular. I've mentioned that before and it would, and it's a shame, I think. I think the closest that we get is in the Lazarus experiment where both of them get to run away from, you know, the Lazarus monster together. And it's really fun. I think it's really enjoyable having her there. It's the John and Gillian principle and then we wonder why it wasn't followed through. Well, I think Russell has set up a good family to follow Rose's family, but they don't get explored in the same depth. So Lazar experiment is good for that. You know, you do get a feel for Martha's family and it feels like you're, you know, revisiting elements which have already been set up, but that kind of falls by the wayside a little bit. I think too, by getting Martha's mother kind of involved in this sort of conspiracy. We don't get to see a normal family relationship very much. You know, the 1st 2 parter of the whole sort of RTD era is very much about involving the family in Rose's adventures. But here they kept it a little bit of a distance, partly I think because Martha's older, but also because we've got this sort of weird thing where the family's involved in a sort of conspiracy that Mr. Saxon conspiracy. So we, we, the only chance that we properly get to meet them just in normal circumstances is in the last experiment. Would have been great if Francine had jumped in the TARDIS for Daleks in Manhattan dressed down a pig sleeve or to... We'll get to her. All right, Richard, next in the box of delights. Um, Snog Mary, kill. Harold Saxon, Professor Yana, and the master. It's kind of like a flummery, isn't it, or a fool or a delicious trifle because really you mix them all up together again and eat all of them, can't you? So I just think this has turned into one of those films that not in front of my trifle. turned into one of those ones. you can really do all with all, can't you? Are they all interpositional? It's like those old mego figures we played with in the 70s of Batman or Spider-Man or Wonder Woman, but once you got their onesie off, apart from the gimp mask, they all had the same bodies and you could pull them all backwards. anyway, that's my childhood for you. If I had to, of all of them, well, look, Saxon, oh, it'd be like sorry, how can I say? It would be like walking a ferrish in a crowded dog park, wouldn't it? I don't think you'd get a lot of time to yourself. I think, I think whatever you ended up doing with Harold Saxon, it would be highly energetic and over very quickly. So I'd probably avoid Harold's sex. And Professor Yana, however, I mean, he's a charming sweetie, isn't he? But I think I would end up being the Ian McCellen too, Professor Yano, and we'd sit about in an apartment and just say horrid things about other theatricals. That's vicious, isn't it? That's all the seasons are vicious. you'd marry him. Now, the master which one? Because I actually really like Jeffrey B's master. So I probably, oh, except, oh, it'd be like kissing a budget bolognese, wouldn't it, just be all over your face at once. Snog Peter Pratt's master and get a nice eyeball or 2 in here. That's more like something Calvin would make for lunch, isn't it? With a floating egg in the middle. So, yeah, why not? I mean, you know, I'm all for a master stock. See what I did there? I'll have that. Thank you, Todd. That was, I hope, was enjoyable for the listeners as it was for me. It was good that you got that one actually. I'd forgotten I'd put that in there. All right. It was illuminating. Nathan? What have you got for us? Okay, series three. So this is the themes of series three. What do I think? So what are you, yeah. So I think that my feeling about series 3 as a whole is sort of largely unchanged from this process. I think it has the best arc that any of RTDs eras have, they're kind of finding their way with series one. Series 2 is, you know, Torchwood, I guess it's okay, but it doesn't really sort of affect the individual episodes quite so much. Whereas this one has a very, very clever thing. And it is an echo of what happens in series one, isn't it? Where the villain in episode 11 travels back in time to the middle of series 2 and then is mentioned, you know, over and over again and starts to affect what's going on with Martha's family and in episodes of series 3. Now individual episodes. I think, you know, people have sort of a different idea of how successful they are. But I also think too, the wonderful thing is the order that RTD introduces his villains and things. So series one introduces the Daleks, who are Hartnell's nemesis series 2 introduces the Cybermen, Troughton's Nemesis, and series 3 introduces us to Pertwee's nemesis. So all of the mythology is being introduced for an entire new generation of fans in the order. Series 4, this on... Yeah, yeah. I just think it's, I think it's just wonderful. It is sort of really fun. And as for the quality of the episodes, I think I don't think there are any outright stinkers. I think there are fewer low points than last year, and there are one or 2 sort of spectacular high points. So I think it's really good. There's also an emotional arc there with Martha. I mean, you know, it's a little bit hit and miss. You know, I don't know if people particularly like the fact that she's got this unrequited love for the doctor, particularly from the doctor's point of view. He treats Martha a little bit shabbily, but it adds an emotional resonance to the season, which I don't think that the previous 2 had. They were sort of plot fundamentals, whereas this actually, you know, development in the character. I think there's a confidence in performance, and there's a confidence in production, like that all comes together in this season, that makes it, for me, so much more perhaps rounded and every episode, there's quality in every episode, as you said Nathan, there's a few dips, but I just think there's so many solid performances and enjoyment in it. I've been surprised at the consistency and certainly Freema's performance for me has been an absolute highlight. She's so likeable. I have this theory and I feel bad saying it because I love series one a lot. I think that each RTD series is better than the last, that they just gradually get better and better. And I could be wrong, maybe series 4 is a car crash and I'm misremembering it, but I think I probably am not. Each series learns from the last one. Each series, they learn what, you know, works and what doesn't work and they sort of build upon that. And, you know, series one comes out with a great deal of confidence and the advantage of not knowing whether it's going to succeed. So everyone's absolutely trying their hearts out. But, you know, we've had 2 years of Doctor Who now, and they've learned from that, and I think series 3 benefits from it. I like what you're saying, but we've seen years and years. We've seen banana cucumber. We know that he's only happy. This is RTD when everything is up in the air, and it's the greatest show in the galaxy, and the clowns of evil are running the show, but he fears he's internal clowns as much as he celebrates them. I really do think if we'd had a full season five, I could not have done those 4 specials for an entire season, because it would have been woeful and indulgent in the worst way, and it would have all been the Jungian shadows are out in the park to play eating the tiny animals in the trees. It really would have been horrible and dark and indulgent because that's where Russell ends up. When he has a success. I know. I feel it. He doesn't feel he deserves it. He feels that it's all been pissed up against the wall. He hasn't tried hard enough. It's the curse of perfectionism. I think it would have been dire. So you're saying it's good that we had those specials because that allowed him to kind of have that little coder at the end. It's good that there's only 4 so I cannot watch them if I choose. Do you know? Do you know, I think there is... Do you know, I think there's a problem with the fact that the last 2 parter is a little bit polarising and that's not the case in any of the other Russell seasons. And so when people think about this season, if they don't like the finale, in your mind's eye, it brings it down a little bit, whereas actually on average, the call of the episodes is as good as any other year. agree with you. I mean, I was discussing last week. The final conclusion, I find a bit of a letdown. And so that sticks in my mind, and certainly having famous performance in that, which is not showing emotion, sticks in my mind. And that's not the case, like for the rest of the season. So it's interesting that you picked up on that. All in the family, the master's wife. So we're doing the American version of Tour Deathos Dupart, that had Warren Mitchell, but this one had Archie Bunker, which was called All in the Family, and launched the career of B. Arthur, as Cousin Maud. So how does that work with Doctor Who? Is she really spun off that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was the cool, lefty educated aunt of all in the family. And then she gets to spin off good times. And then there's Maude. Yeah. And then there's good time. Good times a spinoff for that. It's a spinoff of Maude. amazing. There we go. A little bit of television history there. Yes, that's where I did take that. I think it's so clever. You know, the doctor has never had a wife. He's had a potential girlfriend. Nathan, you always talk to us about the Pertuy era, how the master is the alternative to the doctor, and in this time, the brigade is the wife. Very true. He leaves her at home and she gets moaney. Does that mean that Joe was just a bit on the side? Yeah. Oh, yeah. But we're talking about fiction. We are. We are. So I just think it's so delicious to have his companion being actually his wife. And she's so wonderfully portrayed. I think she's the best performance. It's super transgressive, actually, and you can actually see the doctor slightly shocked that, you know, the master's boning his companion is clearly kind of the sort of subtext of the beginning of sound of drums. And the doctor's actually quite shocked that the master has a wife and that is kind of... genitalia. That's right. But she is amazing. Like she is fabulously fabulously demented and increasingly so. And she's got that weird posh girl kind of way of speaking, but she gets sort of gradually more kind of unfocused and unhinged. And the best moment is that sort of bizarre white girl dance that she does in the cliffhanger to the sound of drum song. She's super, super strange. You can imagine she would have just lost her grip on anything with a year trapped with that master. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's said, isn't it? She learns that everything ends and that the world is utterly completely meaningless and that the destiny of humanity is essentially hell. And so she loses it. She becomes like the master. We talked about this last week. And so there's a real kind of existential sort of philosophical unmooring that happens to her, which sort of underlies this weird unfocused, strange performance. And the fact that, you know, we see her beaten as well. Well, I was going to say that earlier. I mean, Richard said he might marry Saxon. I said, well, be prepared for the shiner then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. avoiding him. Her performance in that last episode and just through looks and the body movement is, I think, just extraordinary, like how broken she actually is and the turmoil that she's going through, I just can't praise Lucy Saxon enough. Yeah, she's just been rifling through Russell's lollies draw hasn't she? Really? I don't think there was much in that performance. You just, you know, I think I think the idea that she's kind of broken and mental. The doctor saves Francine from becoming like that by preventing her from killing the master in what I think is, you know absolutely Francine's high point of the season. I really love that. And the doctor relieves her of the gun. And then Lucy, who's broken anyway, shoots him. And there's no kind of moral consequence for her because she's already kind of signed off when it comes to any kind of morality, I think. Peter? Dip into the box of delights, yeah? I also like the signifier of the sanguine dress. She's in red, isn't she of the final? Isn't she in white for the 1st partter and then in red for the second? Snow White and Rose Red. Possibly. I like the fact that she's got a black eye is not highlighted. No, they don't lampshade or draw attention to it in any way. And so it's possibly the most powerful image of the season. Yeah. Yeah. It's real proper evil. It's not cartoonish evil. It's the kind of evil that happens on our street, you know. It's just left to kind of speak for itself. I don't think the, you know, the kids may not have noticed or understood what it meant, but yeah, it's truly horrible. All right, so I picked from the box. Series three, the master slash John Sim. His general discussion about the master slash John Sim. No, no, I think it's some kind of, it's a writing prompt for some slash fig. Which master we ask ourselves. So, Peter Watson. Clearly, it's missy. So, Peter, what do you think of John Sims performance? Um, I'm going to do your trick, Todd, because at the time I wasn't entirely sure about it. It was such a radical departure from the way that the master's been portrayed in the past. I've grown to like it more and more because, as Nathan always says they must should be the opposite of the doctor that they're facing. And so see him as a perfect opponent for David Tennant's kind of high energy sort of hog the scene kind of thing. And, you know, he comes and he takes over the show. And so it becomes the master show. And I don't think you could have done that with a Delgado style mask. You need someone who had his own energy and kind of was able to co opt the show like that. And he'd also already had his own successful series. Yeah. And he might argue more successful than David's secondary parts in all the things he's done previously. You can absolutely see him coming in and being the star of the series. Yeah, it has to be plausible and the fact that they've chosen the star of the other big successful science fiction-ish series on TV. I think it's perfect casting. I still think Missy is probably better. And I think Missy works for the same reason that John Sim works that she is a credible alternative doctor and she is more fun than the doctor. She has the advantage of absolutely being more fun than Capaldi's doctor. It just should have been Rebecca Frant. It should have been anyone who faced who faced Capaldi off in the thick of it. Paul. Poor Rebecca Front. Yeah, well, Chris Addison's there being exploded by Missy, so that's a thing that happens. In reality. Look, I think the big moment for the master, the 1st time it happens is in claws of Axos, where the master is vastly more fun than the doctor and he's working alongside unit, and that's what the master should be. The threat should be I'm going to take over the show. And I think John's him does an incredible job. I think he's really, really great. And it is just him being the other tenant, you know. It's, look, I think there are maybe one or 2 scenes where I kind of think I'm not quite sure that that came off. But on the whole, I just think he's incredible. I agree with you and Peter. on this. I've said it before. Like, I didn't like him at the time, but now I've completely changed my mind, and I think there is so much subtlety and undertones in his performance, and then he has those flashes of over the top, which at times I don't think necessarily work, but it is to try and be the opposite polar opposite of David Tennant doing his shtick. And I really, really enjoyed him this time round. And it's his performance that holds that last 2 part, well, the last episode in particular together. I'm really impressed. So when John Sim comes back um for series 10. I actually think it's a slightly better performance for being toned down a little bit. I agree. And I'm not entirely sure why that is because it's got all the elements of his master. It isn't quite as manic. He's also got Gomez taking up 98% of the screen whenever he's in the office. He's actually just, if you remember, back in the 70s and 80s, we had that little colour sidebar on the urge of early digital fracting of televisions. And that is actually John Sims in those scenes, because she's the entire rest of the production. Maybe it's also having a different doctor to act against and a different energy. You know, you see, I don't think I don't think the master is reacting against quality doctrine that he's reacting against Missy. And that's, yeah, so that's why he sort of slightly modified his performance. I think that Moffat doesn't quite... Well, he probably does get what made John seem work as the master but he's deciding not to use that in this episode and that's fine. He's doing something. and highlight the change in missy. You might need a slightly more generic master. I also think that Moffat will not acknowledge anybody else's work. I think that's true. I think he's super generous towards RTD. I think he really likes RTD's work and I can see, particularly in series 5, that he is really self-consciously working within RTD's tradition clearing up some of RTD's plot holes, referencing things that have happened in RTDs, Doctor Who. I think he's very keen to give credit where credit's due to RTD. Isn't it interesting you say that because I've just pulled out all in the family, Francine? And I do actually feel that if there is, in fact, um, I was going to see Laurel and Hardy, but I could actually just as easily say Crawford and Davis, bet noir between Moffat and RTD, it is in the and get out your bingo card for FT, the apotheosis of, of, um, of Martha's mother, as I believe she's actually just Stephen Moffat and Russell's, being very naughty. in the writing of her with the arched eyebrows and, you know, that pirly hair. The white powdery. Scottish accent. Scottish accent. The fact that she completely loses and wants to destroy everything around her and then somehow manages to pull it all back together at the end of the at the end of the season without shooting anyone. No, it's definitely the scene is written as Moffat as RTD sees him. I think I want RT to, if I have my wish from this, if you know, say it 3 times and it'll be a real series. I want to see Vicious rebooted with Moffat and RTD in that tiny apartment bitching at each other. Chibnall lives across the hall. Oh, in a fluffy slippers and pulling the bits of nylon balls off his card. Oh, it will be miserable. I can't wait. What else do we want to say about Francine? I think she's the linchpin of this series. I think she's, she is actually the face of, um, I wouldn't say conservatism because she doesn't strike me as conservative, but she is the face of modern median Britain, the middle, middle thinking of the middle-class of the middle purpose of the, I'm neither this nor that. I can see the respectful side of all arguments, but underneath is the seething fury of misappropriation of truths and that anger that nothing has actually turned out. She's the post-Blair middle class that was promised everything and has received nothing. And I actually find it also very interesting, that it's a black family because we have the Obama syndrome. Wouldn't that make a great film? But again, the promise of neoliberal loveliness and bloody nothing has really come out of it except more destruction. You could say that's not his fault. However, we also know that the Obama administration was in favour of doing things that are entirely harmful to the economy and to the people, such as fracking and all the rest of it anyway. And they did nothing for the Chicago Blacks. And I know this because I've heard these people talk about it. So I think that Francine is actually there to tell us that it's not working. So again, it comes back to Morphin. Nathan, Peter? Well, I mean, that's a really interesting reading. I hadn't actually thought about a lot of that. Can I just say on a more pure art level, that I went to the 50th anniversary convention in 2013, and they had a Mothers of RTD panel where they did with Camille and Anjoa and Donna's mum whose name escapes Jackie King. Yep, Jackie King. And it was amazing. That is absolutely, you know, my, yeah. Ultimately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't even know this happened. The listener can't say this, but Nathan has actually just turned into a Catherine wheel. Binny, right now. And I think she sometimes gets unfairly overlooked between, you know, obviously Camille is a goddess and Jackie's amazing. I think Francine is amazing in her own way, but because she's not instantly likeable because she's had kind of, you know, she's got a bit of a tough backstory. You know, she's trying to keep her family together, her husband's left over sort of, you know, the young blonde. And, you know, there's things which have gone wrong in her life and she's bitter about them. I'm right. I also think too, you know, there's that angry black lady thing where we're much more likely to we're much more likely to have a kind of negative reaction to black women who are cross. And it's a sort of famous meme and stuff. And so she comes in, she's instantly annoyed. She's annoyed with Clive. She's really brisk and businesslike. She doesn't like the doctor and is initially suspicious of him. And it's obvious that Russell is toying with us. He knows how much we loved Camille. And here's another mum. Maybe we get another great mum and she, I think she's wonderful. I do think that later on in the season when it all just becomes about, I'm worried about Martha being in danger, that that's a little bit tiresome and we'll see more of that next year. But I still love that moment, that fabulous sort of film noir moment in the cage with her and her husband. Plotting to kill the master and kissing one another and stuff. I think she is, she's really something. And I would have given my right arm to be at that panel, Peter. I want to thank Nathan for helping me rehabilitate Francine. I used to just go around saying how much I hated her. Why did you feel like that at the time then? I just, you know, she was just so horrible to the doctor out of nowhere. I've wanted to be her for years. But also her irritation is amusing. I mean, it's written to be funny, the way that she chafes against the doctor and that, and it is, her gritted teeth kind of performance is really funny. There's that moment. She's super vulnerable where David Tennant rushes out of the room in Lazarus experiment and bumps her and knocks her drink over, but he actually hits her quite hard and she's kind of a bit like she's physically shaken by it. And it is just that doctor. He's so oblivious and he's such, like, he needs Francine to smack him in the face, I reckon. And she responds like any normal person would to that kind of, you know, bubbling ball of energy coming true. It's just like, stop for a second. Stop. What? Stop. And it is it is being the daughter's boyfriend. you know, and having to kind of face up to the mother the next morning after they've been out all night or whatever and putting the doctor in that position, where he's absolutely incapable of properly dealing with it, where Francine kind of wins that interaction. I think is wonderful. I've seen a lot more subtly in her performance and certainly 2nd guessing, actually working with the Saxon people. And by the end of it, I really felt for her. And it's a shame in a way that you don't get to see a follow-up story to see what the interaction with the doctor and her would actually be like after the, you know, the events at the end of the season. You get that begrudging look, you know, of, yes, we know where we're at, you know, with each other. And I actually think it's one of the, I think it's a wonderful look. Like it just sums up everything. Yep, I respect you. We know where we're at with things. I think it's a shame in some ways that, you know, when she goes into the doctor's arms in that in that final episode. It's so brief because we've got to then focus on John Sim. But I've come to appreciate her performance. I'm never going to love her, but I love her. I have come not to hate her and I like her a lot more and I can see where they're going with the character. I kind of wish that we'd had a couple of episodes build up rather than just in the focus in the one episode. I do find personally, it's a bit forced. I find that it's not perhaps organic enough. But that's the gift of putting truly great performers into median but, you know, significant roles. So again, she's tertiary to the drama, being the parent, but she's an absolutely linch pin through this. And if you want to say it, perhaps she's Martha Superego or Martha's consciousness or Martha's practical self. Martha's adult self, whereas Martha is still the puppy. So Martha, at her current stage, you know, a personal evolution is more like the tenant doctor, but who she actually is at core is her mother. And possibly a little bit of Clive is the playfulness. But no, no, I honestly think she's the most significant, if you look at the arc of the companion in this. It's the mother that gives us the mettle of who this person actually is. And because Martha herself, we've said it, is not, and I've also said this to begin with, and it may not have been kind, but she doesn't have the experience yet as an actress to necessarily carry the whole series. And Russell knew that. So she is, in fact, a Gestalt of all the parts of her family. And it is a shame that we didn't get to see more of them. I would have been happy with Francine in every single episode of Nathan. How do you feel? Yep, no, please. Well, we got a bonus episode of her as a cat. This one's for all of us, I think. So we want to talk about our favourite guest stars for the season. So I might just have to go for the 2 obvious ones. Okay. And I think it's Derek Jacoby, who is obviously sort of massive overcasting for Doctor Who. although he's absolutely not unhappy to slum at in genre television, as he said many times. And I think he's really terrific. I think he's perfect as a way of introducing the master, but he's not just that. He's a really great character on his own. I think he's performance in utopia is spectacular. And then his performance as the master is also spectacular. So I'm going to go for Derek Jacobi. It's partly emotional resonance of utopia that you lose that master. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, who we offer was a future doctor. Well, of course, you know, part of me did. So it's an alternate doctor or, you know. I think we talked at the time that there'd beat enough spoilers that I was pretty certain that going... It's hard to remember back, but like a gut feeling, we all knew didn't we? Yeah, yeah. But and he'd played the master in the curse of Paul Cornell. Yeah, in the curse of Paul Cornell, quiet. And so we'd already sort of seen that. So he would be my favourite male guest star and my favourite female guest star would have to be Jessica Hines as well. Well, I just think she's incredible and it's an amazing bit of casting. There's no surprise that Russell will go back to her next year because she's a hugely important person in the doctor's life. She gets to critique the doctor's morality. And it's a really strong performance, a really likeable performance, and we get to be with her for 2 episodes. I think she was great. That's interesting. I wish it does, sorry, Richard, when she does come back in end of time, it's possibly the single most affecting scene in the entire story. I'd completely forgotten that happened. I've watched it again yet. Not that affecting them. I guess not. Carrie Mulligan, Carrie Mulligan, Carrie Mulligan. There you go. Big finish series. But we can't get her because she was already too big and popular even right after shooting this. She did an education straight after this. which is an amazing film set in the 60th with, I think, column Firth, because it's always got column Firth. doesn't matter if it isn't him, does it? They're all the same. Sorry, boys, but you are. Hugh Grant, they're all just Hugh Grant, aren't they? Isn't they just splitting him up on a petri dish and make lots of him? So yeah, Carrie Mulligan. What a shame, but she just makes that whole thing glow. I agree with you. She is my pick because without that performance of Sally Sparrow. If that had fallen flat, then that episode just put into a being sold. We were really lucky to have. Yeah. I think Stephen Moffa has type when he writes very strong women. He essentially writes the same character every time and they live or die on the strength of the performance. And so she is the apotheosis of this. She's so warm and she's actually quite a cool character. She's not, she doesn't respond to people around her in warm and empathetic ways in a lot of the time. But Kerry brings so much to that. So you compare that to say, you know, I don't think Jenna Coleman was particularly good companion as Clara. It's essentially the same kind of character, but you get an actress who's very warm playing Sally Sparrow, an actress who's not as warm playing. There are gradations in Mulligan's performance and subtleties. And it's just, it's the Rig principle. what Diana Rigg did. You just work with your eyes. Hartnell did it as well. Just use your eyes. Don't think about any other part of your face or your body, and everything else will follow through. It's an actor's tick. She does it perfectly. Crawford did it actually. It's kind of, yeah, it's kind of called the Crawford principle. But it really works. Yeah. And Coleman, I guess, was, yeah, different motivations as an actor but you're right. I never felt, I felt all the tricks, you can feel Coleman's brilliance for getting ahead of ourselves, but technically and all the rest of it, she's a fine performer and there's so much going on in her head, but Mulligan, just warmth and heart. And you can see who's going to be the star. Well, basically, you've got Stephen Mothat bringing his A game and Blink is not just a science fiction story. It's a romantic comedy as well. And an annual story. Exactly. And so you've got someone who will go on to be an absolute A Lister in Hollywood headlining a romantic comedy for Doctor Who. And so you get that scene in the hospital room. It's the same rain, which is so heartbreakingly brilliant and sort of based on those 2 performances that it transcends Doctor Who really. And, you know, a lot of let's down to carry. Did you watch that dire Brobdignagian hurtling juggernaut otherwise known as the Great Gatsby, and see... Is she in that? She's she's, um, she plays Daisy. Right, right. in that terrible. everything that man does is a terrible film. I can't say his name out loud. But I just watching her thinking, well, it's dear little Sally Sparrow in the wrong place again at the wrong time. We talked a little bit about Jessica Hines as well. Can I just make honourable mentions from that story for Harry Lloyd, who's amazing, and Rebecca Staten, mother of mine. They're both. Isn't she gorgeous? Yes. From memory, I think we do spend a bit of time talking about Harry Lloyd's performance in our episodes because it's very strange and very, very well judged. It just teeters on the brink of going horribly wrong and doesn't fall over the edge. And that one moment where he has a demented reading of some lines when he calls for the scarecrows and just one word, soldiers, and the way he delivers it over his shoulder, this weird pitch is amazing. All right, so I've just drawn out of the box series three. The favourite stories, improved stories, stories that perhaps didn't quite work. I'm going to start. So my favourite, obviously, is blink. I think it's astounding and I was really surprised that the sound of drums is the runner-up for the season for me. I just think it's magnificent. They are the 2 standouts for me for the year. In my honourable mentions, up to the family, a blood episode. My favourite episode is actually the Shakespeare code, which I just enjoy thoroughly. I think there's a really good standard throughout the season. I mentioned ages ago. I think the premiere surprised me. Every time I watch the Lazarus experiment, I enjoy it more and more. At the other end of the barrel, the dalek 2 parter is the one that I like the least, but that's not to say I didn't like it. I think the Daleks are good. I think, Cholula and Laslow and Solomon, are great performances. I like the ideas in there. It's just it just feels very, the structure of it feels very clunky and weighed it down for me and I just didn't connect with it. So, but having said that, I previously considered it to be an absolute fear her, but I don't consider that anymore. I see a lot of positives in it. So, you know, if it's the lull in the season, you know, that's okay. you know, that's where I stand. I think human nature and family blood are the best of the season. There's just an emotional resonance to those episodes and an atmosphere to them that you don't often find in Doctor Who, very sober. Because it's an important thing happening to the doctor. And prior to Stephen Moffat, episodes don't obviously focus on the doctor very much. The doctor sort of comes in and is an agent of change. The episodes are not about the doctor, whereas that definitely is. And also it's got an added cachet because it was obviously based on human nature, the new adventure novel, which was already a beloved novel. So it had a lot to live up to. See, I really like them. I love blink, obviously, there's a lot going on there. Utopia is amazing. I think I've said to Nathan at some point that he and I both really like utopia because if you've got that bleak 7 gene where you quite enjoy kind of primitives wandering around on the surface of a planet, then you are likely to enjoy that. And I'm with Todd as well. I think Shakespeare code is better than people give it credit for. It sort of gets a bit of a panning sometimes or people are muted in their praise, whereas actually it's just a rollicking, good, fun and quite, quite interesting adventure. It is so much fun. The only thing that bothered me with Shakespeare code was the central casting of Dean Lennox Kelly. Yeah, it didn't work for me. Everything else is great. And a great season opener as well. People don't often talk about Smith and Jones, but you know, what a cool episode. It's very solid. I think it's extraordinarily well written, having to introduce so many new elements and a whole new family. And it's the only time that he actually has to introduce a home besides, obviously, roads. You know, the other two, he's got elements that are already in place or we've seen before. I actually think in terms of the actual intricacy of the writing of that episode. I think it's extraordinary. It may even be better than next year's opener in terms of the I know. You know, I'm throwing that out there in terms of the actual writing. I'm not saying I enjoy it more than next year's, but there's just something about it that I actually thought there's something in this episode, really. I am delighted to hear love for RTDs series openers because too often they're sort of dismissed as sort of romps or lightweight or whatever, but I think they're all just fantastic. I love them all. They are often romps and they are often lightweight and they are amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I want lightweight romps in Doctor Who. Yeah, absolutely. My favourite episode of the season is still gridlock. I think it is amazing and it has so much to say and it is Russell sort of going full allegorical and just raising all sorts of interesting issues. It has so much going for it and it has my favourite moment of the season, which is the singing of the old rugged cross, which I'm going to stop talking about now because I'm already tearing up a bit. I think it's beautiful. It's a great piece of work. That was like me watching 42. I'm old and rugged and I was very cross. Richard, are there any other episodes for you that stand out? Oh, that's still a draw dialects in Manhattan. I really do. It makes my heart jump in the same way that the other ones do. Isn't it nice that he's given something for all the kaleidoscopic colours in fanboyness or fan personness? All of us came up with different answers to that question. I think that's wonderful. Just awesome. Series three, David Tennant and Freema Edgeman. Ooh, I think that was a Todd favourite. No, I want I want Petey to get a snog Mario boy. I haven't won yet, but would you like me to choose again? Let's discuss these two. Okay, Freeman's amazing. She's got a lot of charisma and she makes mouth work. Martha is not a particularly well-written character in episodes that Russell doesn't rise. She gets a bit lost in the mix. That's really good point. Yeah, Russell comes back to her and kind of, you know, bolsters her. But yeah, she's kind of written as generic companion. And I think... Or dispossessed girlfriend. Yeah, she kind of gets stuck in that role a little bit. And so she gets kind of in scenes. She gets those kind of, you know, looking forlorn in the background and you don't want that. I think the problem, you know, there isn't really a problem, but as it were, the problem is that you get someone like Billy Piper and Catherine Tate, and they are able to pitch a performance that's a little bit more than naturalistic. It's kind of very slightly heightened and it reaches that Doctor Who level that you need. Liz Sladen did it. Katie Manning did it back in the old days. I don't think Freema manages to do that. I think she's a fine actress. I think she's very charismatic, but she doesn't quite, she sometimes gets lost in the scenes a little bit. So if a scene is good for Martha, then Freema is brilliant in it. If a scene is not good for Martha, I don't know if she brings it light in a way that Catherine Tate lights up every scene. I think that's a really good observation. I think because David's so big and so over the top, in a way that sometimes, you know, crosses the line into being irritating. She does tend to get it a little bit swamped. What I remember most of all is when she was cast. There was a video from her trailer that was put up on the internet and just the sheer joy and enthusiasm, her excitement about being in Doctor Who was so lovely. And that does come across in her performance. As you said, Peter, she's so charismatic. She's so, so likeable. And there are real moments when she gets to be a bit cheeky or a bit snarky, which happens all too rarely, I think, for maybe the reasons that you outlined, Peter. She's just great. She's just great and she does get lost in the mix. I think it is a shame. She is kind of surrounded by 2 incredible companions in, you know Rose and and Donna. And so she does tend to get overlooked, but that is an injustice, I think. She's wonderful. Yes, you're absolutely right. She gets overshadowed by David Tennon in some scenes. If you get scenes where she's with other characters, like her scenes with Jenny in human nature. She's great. Like, absolutely holds her own to really good. I just, yeah, I think there's something about a style of performance that's required. And can I just add that I know some people who worked on the production team and unanimously, they say that Freema is an absolutely delightful person and that counts for a lot. It really does, because you're under so much pressure just being yourself. So it just shows that, you know, she's born to play the part. What's tenant seem like on set? Oh, I think everybody in life stated. Yeah. Yeah. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I was just blown away by her performance, watching it this time through and I reiterate that I think she's terribly underrated. There's just a warmth and there's a cheekiness. I think it's such a shame that Martha is laboured with the unrequited love, which by the time it gets into the Dalek 2 parter. I dont want another conversation about it. And they go away from that from few episodes, which is great. I dislike the way in which the doctor treats Martha for a lot of the season, certainly early on. And perhaps that respect that the doctor should be giving to that character you don't really see until perhaps when she turns up next season. David's performance. again, I really enjoy him in the moment. There's some shtick that he does at certain times perhaps towards the end of the season where it does get irritating. But he's certainly confident. I mean, we're now in a season where we've got nobody from season one. So the show is his own to do with, and I enjoy them together immensely, and I enjoy him when I'm watching him 95% of the time. And he definitely tapped into something because I think this was the season where he absolutely took off with the viewing public. He was very popular in his 1st season. ratings were good. But I think in this season, he somehow transcended that and became iconic. I don't necessarily see it. I think he's an absolutely fine doctor. I really enjoy watching him. He's not one of my absolute favourites. But for the general public. He tapped into something. He really captured something. Senog, marry, avoid, the Dolby Doctor, Professor Lazarus, a half human Dalek. Oh, it's, you know where you are, listener. Well, obviously, I wish that polygamy was legal and I could marry all of them. Well, that would be amazing. Well, that's exactly it. Corey Bernardi food. Well, let's see. I think I would snog the Dobby doctor because then you could just you know, have you been of a snogging session, pop in mini's cage and watch TV together. That'd be great. Professor Lazarus. I would definitely, I would definitely marry Professor Lazarus because Mark Gatis is delightful. He's just a... You're going to avoid that creature. popping up every so often to suck the energy out of other people and then. Who's to say I don't like that kind of thing, John? And what? Avoid, oh, definitely avoid the half human dialect because no one can have that many sort of suspiciously shaped tendril things coming at you. No, no, it's eye watering. Friday night has rapidly ascended to Saturday morning. All in the family. Martha's dead and Annalise. Lace. I actually think Annalise is one of the great characters. Doctor New History. So do I. I'm really disappointed we never get to see her again. No, it's terrible. It is terrible. I think the wicked tragedy is that the Sarah Jane adventures didn't cross over into this season and that she would have simply been neighbours with Clive and Annalise. Alternative universe and Elise becomes the master's wife in sound of drums. Actually, interesting observation because it's almost the same character, if you can see the arc, but simply that one is working class than the other king from the other side, but they are very similar in their, in their, shall we say, aspirations? How about there's another hidden depth to Annalise, and she's the woman in either Lazar Experiment or 42, who's there saying to Francine, yes, keep the recording going, Francine. That would have been amazing. I think that Russell absolutely nails it with 2 fantastic female characters in 2 consecutive episodes. And so we have Neris, and then Annalise, and they are 2 of my absolute favourite people. They are awesome. And can you imagine either Neres or Annalise or really any woman at all being in a Hingecliff episode. You know, like it has really taken Doctor Who to a really fun new place where it's able to do sort of comedy at a much more convenient. The closest we ever got was pert wee dressing as the washer warmer in green tea. And also, they're very different characters because Neres is not a very nice person from what we've seen. Whereas Analisa actually appears to be really nice. She's sort of a bit dumb though, isn't she? But so does live is a bit as well. She's a Kardashian viewer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He seduced me. That still sticks with me that line. It's just so hilarious. Like he's that capable of seducing her because he's such a... Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, um... Look, I quite like him. I quite like how one of the side effects of that year of hell is that we assume that Francine and Clive are now back together and the family is fixed. I think we do. I think, you know, at the end of series two, one of the things that the doctor does, even though he leaves Billy stranded and unable to ever see him again. He manages inadvertently to fix the big hole in her family that had been there from the very beginning, that the father is dead. We learn about that, what, in episode 3 of series one, that Rose's father's not with us anymore. And after travelling with the doctor, she gets him back. And so she gets to be part of an intact family at the end. And I want to imagine that they're together now, that that's fixed that they've been through so much together in that year on the valiant, that, you know, they're broken and damaged in all sorts of ways and Martha has to leave in order to look after them, but I think the family's been, you know, fixed in some way. It's interesting. I don't necessarily see them getting back together. I think perhaps they now have an understanding and they get along and they work together with the family, but she's not going to go back to him based on how he's treated her and how what a husband he has been. So I don't actually necessarily see that, but I do think now that they don't argue and that they are more of a unit. Yeah, and more of a family and and certainly when Martha's mum comes back, you know, briefly in a year's time, when she says, oh you came back to me, I still see that she's not with him at that time. And also spoiler alert. That's what happens in series four. The doctor heals that family in some ways by making Jackie aware of the way that she treats her daughter. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I get a Snuck Mary avoid. Okay, Brannigan, Lazloi the Pig Slave and Solomon. Oh, okay. So I'm allergic to cats. No, literally. So I have to avoid Branikin, even though he does seem sort of rather sweet and lovely. He's an old-fashioned cat. It's really great casting, isn't it? Because he's sort of very famous from Father Ted and he's sort of super likeable and silly. And, you know, he's wonderful. I think that, oh, see, it's quite a hard choice with Laszlo, the pig slave and Solomon. Because teeth. Yeah, the teeth could be a problem, but he is kind of handsome and in a sort of... That little tail, isn't it? The little tail. The little curled finger of the tail, beckoning you forth. Maybe maybe I'm not entirely certain that I could look at that across the dinner table for the rest of my life. an apple in his mouth. Maybe it's a quick snog with last life. But it's a quick snog with last slope. Bonus bacon and eggs every weekend. Yeah, yeah. And then I'd marry Solomon, obviously. Absolutely Have I had a Stog Mary avoid yet? No, it's your turn. No, I've just are we talking about today? A Mr. Fu Pang. Okay. Here we go. Snog marry avoid. Billy Shipton, John Smith, Lawrence Nightingale. Oh, there I only just got these Lauren Snyder. hilarious. I've never noticed that before either. I'm going to avoid John Smith. Yeah, Good choice. too angsty. I'm going to go out and Snorg, Lawrence Nightingale, and I'm going to marry Billy Shipton. Todd Shipton. Todd Shipton. Yes, I am Carrie Mulligan. Well, you know, Todd, life is short and he is hot. Yeah, he really is. All right. The final category out of the box. before our final wrap-up is favourite monster slash aliens. Francine. It's the only possible answer. I wonder if we could pick the Jadoon, to be honest. I was going to say, I think the Juna are a great addition. Obviously, the weeping angels, right? The Juduna is sort of the best of the Russell anthropomorphised foes. sort of just so recognisable and fun. They're so deliberately designed to be up there with, you know Cyberman Ice Warriors and Santarans and stuff as a kind of iconic looking monster and they are properly funny and properly menacing. And I think they end up getting used to great effect later on. I think, you know, they're wonderful in the season finale of series four. I think they do a great job in the Sarah Jane adventures. You know, I think that they're proper monsters that you can imitate in the playground, absolutely classic. Annie Foos, like the Slovine and the Jadoon, which translate to the Sarah Jane adventures are automatically classic. I agree. So no love for the macra? There was no Mac, right? No such thing. You can just deal with them with sort of a one dose of cream you buy at the chemist and it's fine. Well, I just think it's a lot of effort to go to for a very small amount of meat. You know what I mean? Like I, you know. I'm not talking about Peter's bathing history. I think that they're brilliant, but I think that they work on a kind of metaphorical level rather than as real sort of proper monsters. So, no. We've got to go for the double act as well. son of mine and mother of mine. Yeah, fabulous. I think the scarecrows are effective, but I mean, did Jadune stick with you? Yeah, for me. And backneck series, apparently. So we're heading towards our final comments, wrap up for this season. So we're going to go with our Jenny Laird award nominations. Well, I'm going to start. I nominate the Dobby Doctor. Oh, because I can't stand it. That's Peter's date. I know, we could have made sweet love together in that little cage. Oh, it's just Tweety Bird and Sylvester, isn't it, really? That hilarious moment, my absolute sort of just about one of my favourite moments in Last of the Time Lords, where John Sim sneaks in in his dressing gown, you know, on his tiptoes, with his arms sort of in the air, towards the thing. He's really funny. joyous. And it's the rest of the cat again. Yeah, it is. I think the Dobby doctor. I'm going to choose something related to the Dobby Doctor, and that is the use of ageing makeup in this series. We've said before, it's the BBC foam machine of series three. quite literally foam and it never, ever really works. And it's used a bunch of times. It's not just in, you know, Last of the Time Lords. And it's just not very good. We'll see more of it in tortured next year to similar effect. And, you know, I guess it's all right, but it is not very good. I think I'd give my Jenny Led Award to the entire episode of 42. Just because no one seems to be trying that hard. The script is awkward. The casting's a little bit off, and I mean, Graham Harper's at the helm, and it's maybe the one time that he isn't able to save something. Yeah, it feels like no one really got it rice on that episode. Now, I've just nominated. I haven't actually, I'm nominating other things. Oh, really? I'm nominating the half human Dalek, the look of it. I don't think that works, Mr. Diagonal. I'm nominating the fact that Martha has to be in love with the doctor. I don't think that has some positives. It also has some real negative towards her character and bogging that down. So it's in my nominations. I don't think Martha's arc would have worked or Martha as a character would have worked if she didn't feel like that towards him. essentially who she is. She is going to fall for, you could actually say, she's not even the father she didn't have. He's the father and the mother because she's getting a bit Freudie but she sees herself in the doctor. So there's the arc and bridge to self-love is searching for that acknowledgement of her own confidence, which the doctor represents. So for Martha to fall unrequitedly towards the doctor is a perfect fit because he is, if you like, what she would see herself as if she was fully functional and happy and self-loving. So the fact that he then doesn't recognise her is a perfect fit for where she is right now. And at the end of the season when she realises I actually can love myself and I do have confidence in my abilities and I've just saved that goddamn world, the whole bloody lot of you. I don't give a stuff what you think about me anymore. It's perfect. That is that is a wonderful, wonderful moment. Maybe it's the execution in certain episodes and how it's written. It feels uncomfortable because it is uncomfortable and it's something most of us go through if we're aware, self-aware. We know that arc that she goes to. It's painful. Do you have any Jenny Laird nominations at all? I think you've covered them all. I mean, the things that I don't like. I can then look at and go, oh, there's a reason for them all the time. And it's a good season. It's hard to pick Jenny Laird awards, you know, when there's no Jenny Lance. And it's all done consciously. Like Doctor Who, in this era, I think very rarely fails because it because of some kind of incompetence, you know, it fails because it rubs up against people's expectations, I think, a lot. But, you know, they know what they're doing, I think. And you don't really have people come in and deliver awkward performances like you did during the classic series, you know, for reasons of, you know, time and rehearsals and things like that. It's just an altogether tighter operation. Also, the Doctor Who was just seen as something that kids wanted you to do, and it was popular, but it was just a job back in the day. Which means that when in the new series, you do eventually start getting performances where you think, what are you doing? And we'll get one next year when we come to that. You think, okay, Jenny Letterwood. My actual award goes to the kiss perpetrated by Francine's husband on Francine in the final episode of October, where it looks like he is a mama bird about to vomit in the mouth on a baby bird, that for me, the Roger Morton. I'm sorry, that's how I see it. It's the genuine board for me with the season. I just sit there going, Tony Curtis and Joan Collins. For our loyal listeners. I think you've touched on the fact, Nathan and Peter, that in the new series, giving out Jenny Lead Awards is difficult because it's entirely different production and television is so different. We're not going to get those absolutely dire performances slash special effects. So trying to find something, it's really nitpicky. I just forgot to do it really. So I thought we would have like the anti-Jenny Lead Award. For something in the series that could be your startling discovery it could be your most joyous moment. And so, um, these catch your name. So we're giving out the Bonnie Langford. It's not the Bonnie Langford Award. the Bonnie Langford? No, absolutely. She is much, much better than nearly everyone thinks. And she gives 155% in everything. So I'm after that moment for you. seeing Brendan in a wig. I'm after that moment. and you've already mentioned George. I think so. I think it is that moment, the old rugged cross in gridlock. I think it's super interesting. The plot hinges on it. Like both Martha and the doctor express their different takes on what's going on. It propels the doctor into action. It shows a group of human beings trapped, but still forming a community. It expresses hope. And I just also just feel that kind of loss of a kind of, that kind of certainty, that religion gives people. And so for me, it is just one of the most affecting scenes in Doctor Who in that era. And so it gets my Bonnie Langford. Okay. Richard? Oh, Nicola McCauliff as Vivian Rooke. Oh yes. Because if you remember Graham Garden of the Goodies and, you know creator of some of my favourite radio series of all time. Like, I'm sorry, I haven't a clue, the unbelievable truth. Everything he touches is gold rotor series called Surgical Spirit back in the 90s, where she played the lead and the very caustic, I suppose Penelope Keith with a higher education. She played the chief of surgeons and she's just fabulous in everything she touches. She's titanium level. Platinum, forget gold. And she's wonderful in this. She's our moral compass of truth, and she's actually what's gone wrong with British politics. She's there to say, it's all gone wrong because Saxon is Blair. Yeah. And Vivian Rook is our expectations made manifest, and then Flesh and then mints. She's an absolute joy to watch and then mints. Thank you for that I would have liked a whole season with her as the reporter going around chasing the history of sex and behind the scenes. I could have actually done with her and not John Barriman. Sorry, sorry, John. I only like John Barriman in Doc Two. Don't like him in Torchwood, but he's lovely in dog. We haven't even mentioned him once, this episode, this for a reason. Can we have some love for his when he's running through the bay? Dog, dog. I really like his relationship with Martha. It's delightful. It's really lovely. Yeah, he could have stayed for most of the season. would have just would have been lovely. Peter. My Bonnie Langford will go to one of the MVPs of the season, which is director Charles Palmer. Ooh. He comes in. He's a freshman and he does 4 episodes. Smith and Jones, Shakespeare code, and the 2 human nature episodes all of which are expertly done. And he's got links to the Doctor Who family. So, of course, his father, we all love Adore, Jeffrey, and he's married to Claire Skinner from Outnumbered, who was in the Doctor the Widow in the Wardrobe. Oh. Every episode he does is amazing, but especially the human nature 2 part, a lot of it shot in quite an old-fashioned way, a lot of sort of in-camera effects and practical effects, and it looks superb for it. And then he goes away and you think, oh, okay, well, he's 4 and done. He was amazing and he comes back and he gives us oxygen in Series 10. You think, well, thank you very much, Charles Palmer. I've got 2 moments for this award. My 1st is when Captain Jack announces that he was the face of Bo. Yeah, Murray Gold comes in and gives us the face of Beau theme. He clearly thinks it's true as well. Like, it's a scene where you can read it one way or the other depending on the reactions of the doctor, and is Jack just playing with us? And there's not a conclusive, you know, you can take it that he is or not. And normally you, well, everybody here knows me, that I like things black and white, but for the one time in the history of the show, Like it's just so outrageous, but it's, it never ceases to make me smile and laugh and go, it is what it is, and I don't care whether it's one way or the other. I just love it. Like, you know, I just, the fact that Russell threw that in. and you're not expecting it and the reaction. I think Freeman's reaction just sells it. And speaking of Freeman, the other moment is when she walks back into the Tartars, to finally say to the doctor, I'm going, this is why, and no other companion, he knew who has been given that opportunity to leave on their own terms. sense of self completion. And that's why she shines in this series. I don't underrated leaving scene. It's wonderful. Well, it hurts. That's why people don't go back. All right. Well, we're at the end of our retrospective. I always throw out the question for the next series. Where are you sitting with it at the moment? Is there any sort of thing that you'll be looking at when you go in to watch it? You know, for me, for series 4? It always seems to be the combination of RTD's work and it always sits above everything else. Will that still hold? I'm not sure. And the other overriding aspect is that I thought the 3 episodes with Martha were weaker than everything else in the season. And now that I've had a complete new appreciation of Freema. Is that going to change my opinion when I get to that run of episodes? I've said, I think, that each season gets better than the last one but something that Richard said gave me pause a bit because I don't think the specials are better than series 4 and I think that it is because Russell lets himself kind of, I'm not quite sure what it is. don't really want to play. when we get there. Yeah, but there are 2 episodes in the series 4 that are as bleak as anything that Russell's written for Doctor Who, and that's midnight and turn left. And I like Russell being bleak, but I don't know. I've had a lot of Russell being bleak lately with years and years. So you don't know if it's right for Doctor Who? Well, I like him to push it a little bit, but let's see, you know like I am, I'll be interested to see what I think of it, but I am kind of excited and Jackie King. He does, I was going to say, on Nathan's point there, there is the bleakness of those 2 episodes, but that's followed by the absolute joyousness of that final 2 parter. So it definitely all gets pulled back. It's interesting, isn't it? Thinking back to our expectations, I remember feeling bittersweet at the end of this season with the handling of Martha and the performance, and I've really only come to the understanding we have now, now, has it taken this long, even though I've watched it several times, we watch it for the little joyous moments, and then we see the arc, of course, only in hindsight, how else could you? The anticipation for season four. I really wasn't comfortable with the casting of Catherine Tade at the time. I thought it would be shticky. I thought, I know that Russell has many theatrical turns, if you like, that he adores, and one of them is Blackpool Pier. One of them is slapstick and sideshow, and I thought this is just going to be a love fest with tenant and Catherine Tate telling each other they're geniuses, as they do when they're, when they do their little chats and interviews, and at the time, on BBC radio and TV, there was a whole lot of them just say, oh, I love you. Oh no, I love you more. I love you. I cannot do a whole season of this. So that's how I felt going into it. But I feel that I may be, I may be up for some surprises. Good. Peter. I think, I mean, I'm willing to change my mind if I come to it and find differently, but I think series 4 is the best series of New Doc 2 since it came back. I mean, it feels like everyone's at the height of their powers. I mean, they were so confident that they just rolled on in and sort of shot episode 3 and episode 7 1st up. You know, there was no sense of we're having to start and then continue and then and it was just business as usual and everyone's firing on all cylinders and then you just add Catherine Tate into the mix and Shorefire winner. You think it might end up being quite good. Is that where you think it'll go? I think so. And I think there's very few dead episodes and one spectacularly dead episode, which is great. Well, listen, that's all we have time for this weekend for this series of Doctor Who. We'll be back at Christmas to join Kylie for a commentary podcast on Voyage of the Damned. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flights or Entirety on Facebook, at FTE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger, and Jody Interterra. Until next time, may you all learn a valuable lesson about not voting for barely competent supervillains in major elections. I'm talking to you, English speaking world. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Good then. That was Flight for Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Monterley, Peter Griffiths, and Richard Stone. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, strings performance by Jane Orberg. This episode, Subtlety and Undertones, was recorded on the 13th of October 2019 and released on the 15th of December. We'd like to thank all the people who joined us this series, Pete Lambert, Conrad Westmas, Eric Stadnick, Colin Neil, Simon Moore Liz Miles, and Adam Richard. We'll be back again at Christmas and for series 4 in 2020, or perhaps even sooner than that. Do you want to cheat and give Peter a snug Mario void? Because we're gonna chop it up. It doesn't matter if he does 2 consecutive questions. But I'm with you. Why do I have to have a snog? I have to. It's part of a... It's part of the ritual... ritual. Can I do them all? Like, I can, like I do on Grindr. Snold them, talk about marrying them and avoid them. Oh, Peter. picking one for you. Wait a second, wait a second. blow your load too soon. Let's do that so that I can do it go into it with a clear thing. Oh, Peter, I'm picking one for you. Thank you very much, Todd. It's like when we go out on a Friday night. What was that about boomtish? That's what Martha's sister calls herself behind closed doors. Sandog marry avoid, the Dobby doctor, Professor Lazarus, a half human Dalek.