Kazran Scroogedick

[00:36]

Hello, dear Lissa, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that specifically evolved to scuttle up the back of bedroom cupboards.

I'm Nathan.

I'm James I'm Peter.

And I'm Max.

Well, it's Christmas Eve in July, and to celebrate, we nipped back in time to bet Stephen Moffatt, 4500 Gideons, that he couldn't write a one hour Christmas special using the word fish in dialogue, an average of once every 76 seconds.

And so before we choose one of the 4 of us to put on ice for the next few decades, let's discuss the 1st of 8 Moffat Christmas specials, a Christmas carol.

[01:39]

Let's just start by talking generally how we feel about this one, putting our cards on the table.

Max.

How do you think this rates, not just as a Christmas special, but as a Doctor Who episode generally?

This one, for me, has been on such heavy rotation in my life, sort of every Christmas, uh, subsequent from 2010, that it, it's sort of, um, I sort of think of it almost differently because of how much I've seen it.

It's um, for me, it is the best Doctor Who Christmas special.

I'm not sure how contentious that is, but for me, it is sort of an easy choice, I think, any festive season, I'm always inclined to watch it.

In fact, there were a few years after it 1st broadcast where I would just regularly watch it, uh, because it is so Christmassy and it is sort of so infectiously uh, heartwarming and and beautiful.

[02:40]

I think it's probably the very best Christmas special that Doctor Who has ever produced.

And no, I know, I'm going to say it confidently.

It is the best.

It is the best.

How do you feel?

Peter?

Well, I mean, clearly it's terrible.

I'm kidding.

It's not terrible at all really good.

I think I'm absolutely with Max.

It's the most consciously Christmassy, I think, of all of the Christmas episodes, and it's got all of those things.

It's got the sleighs and the Christmas dinner and, you know, jolly strangers coming down the chimney.

I think Moffat has designed it to be that and it works wonderfully.

James.

I think you're all wrong I hate it.

It is the best Christmas.

I'm going to make a bold claim.

I think that this has, this is not a contention that I'm going to fight, you know, to the death over, but I think it has a reasonable claim to being the best episode of Doctor Who to date once it's broadcast.

[03:41]

I think it's extremely confident.

It's not the sort of thing that we would want to see every week, but this is Doctor Who does a Disney Christmas movie and it does it incredibly well in a way that's sort of super rewatchable, really, really accessible and just terribly entertaining. did it twice in the last day.

How you holding up?

I'm fine.

Nathan, I think that's a big call in a year that had time of angels and Pandora opens in it, but I think that's a call you could defend.

Yeah, and I think the thing with it that's sort of so impressive is that it, it's sort of working on, like, rewatching it again.

You sort of realise how well it's operating on so many different levels.

Like it is, it's obviously an incredibly enjoyable episode for, I think, I think any casual viewer that sort of stumbled upon this would find it delightful.

[04:42]

Like, like, I think it is sort of so warm and witty and it's sort of like, you know, like it, it sort of worms under your heart very, very nimbly and it's just very, it's, it's gorgeous.

But I think it also sort of holds up as just an absolutely astonishing episode of Doctor Who on top of that.

I think on sort of every possible, um, metro, any possible grade you could you could rank this on.

I think I think it succeeds.

I think it's, um, I think Nathan, I think you're, I think you're on the money there.

I think it might be, certainly, I think, like, and I love series 5, but I think this bests everything that's come before it as well.

Let me talk about why I think it's a Disney film.

So, we'll just hold to one side the science fiction teaser.

[05:43]

It opens with Murray doing his sort of best Disney music.

We have a very well-respected actor with a posh accent doing a voiceover, giving us background, just like Beauty and the Beast.

There is a countdown, like a timer, which punctuates the action in the way that the petals dropping off the rose do in Beauty and the Beast.

We have a sort of rich person who lives quietly in this sort of weird, enchanted castle, you have absolutely classic Disney sidekicks in the shaved headed guys.

You know, they're, they're like the people from Cruella, you know, you have Murray doing his giant choir of ascending chords at the very end.

We go, the camera goes down past the castle at the beginning and up past it at the end.

[06:47]

You know, everything is, is there.

It's a standalone Disney movie.

And it has real ambitions to be like a movie.

The production, I think, is quite incredible.

It's absolutely incredible.

And we've said this year that Moffat's version of Doctor Who is heading more towards a fairy tale as just a hop, skip, and a jump from a fairy tale to a Disney movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it is also explicitly, uh, it's in the title, a riff on a Christmas carol, and it's not just a kind of remake of a Christmas carol.

It's not sort of Scrooge starring Bill Murray or anything, or a Muppet Christmas carol, which is a much better film.

It's Doctor Who doing Disney doing dickens.

Doctor Who's old friend, Charles Dickens, in fact.

I can't think of anything more moffety than a tagline, like, it's Dickens Christmas carol, but even more timey whimey.

And of course, the doctor gets the idea to do this from a Christmas carol.

[07:51]

You know, there's that very, very cheesy moment where he hears the ding dong merrily on high coming over the speakers and he goes, you know, Amy asks him what the noise is and he says a Christmas carol and he goes, I've got it.

You know, like I have to make an evil rich guy, um, uh, be good in time for Christmas.

The timing on that.

The coming time.

It's brilliant.

What's that?

A Christmas Carol.

What?

A Christmas cow.

What?

A Christmas.

Oh.

It's one of Moffat's best dad joke sequences.

But whenever you get the doctor and Amy talking to each other over communicator and not quite understanding each other.

It's always comedy gold.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's very like self-reflexive and and sort of like very winking, but it's also, I think, gets back to what you were saying, Nathan, I think, like all last season, which is that Moffatt is sort of continually obsessed with stories.

And in this episode, um, you really get a sense of how, I, I love how the, almost like the kickoff for the the main narrative is the doctor remembering a story.

[09:01]

Like, and I think that that works so well in the context of it being a Christmas special as well, and sort of even that sort of the night before Christmas, like the storytelling that is so wrapped up into, you know, Christmas folklore.

Um, but it, it is just so definitely and humorously done in that moment, as you guys have said, where we're sort of, it is such like sort of a dialogue with the audience and it's sort of done with such heart and lightness that it is sort of just a perfect way to begin this, um, to begin this journey.

All of the sort of Christmas kind of iconography that we have is sort of, you know, from England in the Victorian era, and so much of it was created by Charles Dickens, that this is kind of the perfect go-to thing to do.

And we have done Charles Dickens at Christmas before in Doctor Who.

But that was sort of comparatively unambitious, I think.

[10:04]

But even that is the story of a grumpy and jaded old man who has a supernatural experience and comes away a better person, better, and invigorated as a result.

But this has the additional thing, which is present in a Christmas carol, of being political.

And, you know, the very 1st thing that we see Kazranzardic do is he's been delivering that voiceover explaining about the crystal feast and stuff.

And the very 1st thing that he does is he interrupts that and turns to some poor people and says, I call it getting something for nothing.

And so this is the story of an evil rich man who exploits these people and doesn't care about their misery, who unleashes the fish upon them, who has a change of harm.

So it's not the sort of Disneyified version of a Christmas carol, which kind of avoids the politics.

[11:06]

It's absolutely there for the politics.

I think because it's what you were saying earlier, Max, there's light and dark.

And Nathan, what you're saying there.

This episode works so well because it does have something for everybody.

Like all of the best dog too, and like all of the best Disney.

There's something for the kids to enjoy, but there's that whole other layer which you can dig down to.

It's really interesting.

And just in that that 1st scene we get with Kazrin, um, sorry, Kazran?

Kazran.

Wait, wait, I need to make sure that's Kazran Sardic, is that right?

Kazran.

Yeah, Kazran Scrooge.

Um, and just in the, yeah.

And in that 1st scene with Kazran, like, there's such a beautiful line there with, um, uh, when he sort of, like, complimenting how, how smart the child is, and he says, oh, you must be so irritated, it's just, it's such a, it's such a, it's such like a sort of cartoonish illustration of evil, but it's also just, I mean, it's a combination of the delivery and the writing, but it's just also just so delectable and sort of in exactly that, like a Disney villain way.

[12:19]

And it's massive overcasting, isn't it?

I mean, it is quite incredible getting Michael Gambond to do this.

And, you know, he is the heart of the thing.

He's backgrounded for a little bit in the middle, but he is the main character in a way that the doctor isn't quite.

Apparently they said when they were casting it, they were like, oh, you know, it wouldn't be nice to get someone like, you know, a Michael Gambond type person.

And they asked him and they did not expect him to say yes. was like, oh, I love Doctor Who.

I'll do it.

It's only because Helen Mirren and Joanna Lumley said no.

You know, I think that the entire production takes its cue from the casting of Michael Gambin because not only is it Dickensian, and not only is it Disney Fied, but the whole thing feels like Harry Potter as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Can we shout out to Michael Pickwode?

Oh, I mean, how amazing is he?

That street down the planet, which would have been a Cardiff back alley.

You know it would have been.

But instead is this bespoke wonderful set with all of those kind of hidden corners and everything.

[13:24]

It looks incredible.

I think it actually might be one of those steelworks, again, is just being dressed up to look like it's outside.

Oh wow.

Yeah.

Like, I'm pretty sure they went into like a steel mill or paperworks or something.

Well, that was very rude because I'm sure Thomas was asleep there.

I think what's particularly kind of incredible is that this is Michael Pickwood's 1st episode, I believe.

I think this is his first.

And if you imagine getting the brief that this episode, what this episode will contain.

And that, okay, we're going to sort of, we're going to aim at recreating sort of a Dickensian, um, planet, like a human, you know, colony.

We're going to also travel to, we're going to travel to 1950s Hollywood.

We're going to rig up a sort of shark harness.

It's sort of a, it's such, it's such a massive bill, even in Doctor Who standards.

I think it's sort of, it's reaching for the stars.

[14:24]

And and for this sort of, you know, 1st time out of the park for him to nail it as well as he does.

Like there's details in it that I noticed this time round, which I'd never noticed before, which is that older windows have grates on them.

Um, I imagine because, you know, people don't want fish coming into their house, uh, like, like, it's like little, there's these tiny little details in it that, that are so wonderful.

And I, and I sort of found this, um, interview with him where he was talking about, There's all these unused props from this production, like there's a painting that references, I think, an old sort of 1800s painting of like an industry, a scene of industry.

I think it's called the birth of Sardic town, was the name of this prop.

And it was an idea that it was this sort of like beautifully sort of romanticised vision of where Sardic Town came from.

And it was just, it was just made, but never, never made it like on screen.

And it's just this incredible attention to detail.

You can find it online as well.

But the attention to detail is just sort of stunning.

[15:26]

Um, speaking of Michael Pickwood, his daughter painted all the paintings that were used. in this episode.

So there's a painting of Catherine Jenkins and there's a painting of Elliot, Sardic and stuff like that.

And she went on later to be art director on a number of stories.

Right.

That's really interesting.

And Max, you're so right.

It's not just about the design, it's about the dressing.

This is an incredibly well dressed episode.

Yeah, but there's so much detail.

Like even that drawer.

I noticed the drawer this time.

Like, the way that it conveys what Sardic is thinking is through props.

So rather than having him deliver dialogue.

So much of it is just conveyed from the fact that we just get to see him sort of leafing through old photos and stuff like that.

And even when he pulls the drawer open, You know, there's a moment where we think that, um, young Kasran is going to kind of rebel against his father and he opens a draw to get the half of the screwdriver out.

[16:27]

And the draw has a little arc de Triomphe there and a little Empire State building in it.

And it's just all so thoughtfully done and so carefully done.

It's terrific.

Let's just go back to the precredits teaser, and it's something that I talked about in last week's FTE.

It's Rory and Amy in their sex clothes on the Bridge of the Enterprise.

I love that.

The galaxy class ship indeed.

And the whole thing is just sort of played wonderfully for comedy, I think.

And also, it reiterates the importance of Amy and Rory, even though they're going to be sort of shunted off to the side for much of this. front and centre, which is really nice.

[17:28]

And there's a little detail that came out in there was a tweet along, I think, around Christmas last year where Stephen Moffat sort of tweeted along with the episode.

And he sort of detailed the sort of embarrassing phone call that he had to make or text, I think, to Karen and Arthur about sort of apologising for basically sort of, you know, taking them out of an entire episode.

And he said, and he said, that's basically was my sort of, you know, 8 or 9 years in charge, sort of summed up in a phone call, just, I'm, I'm, I'm so sorry.

I'm really, really sorry, but...

I think it works really well, though.

And it does get to, uh, Doctor Who he sort of send up.

It is Doctor Who is better than Star Trek in a way.

So this is Doctor Who doing Star Trek. but being sort of cooler and more fabulous than Star Trek, I think.

And it's more Star Trek than you think, because not only have they got the J.J.

[18:29]

Abrams lens flag.

Oh, yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say.

But also, playing the captain is the wonderfully named Pookie Quennell, who, you know, that could only be a Voyager alien.

Captain, I'm beaming aboard the Pookie Quennell.

I want I want an entire miniseries based on Pookie Quenel.

It's just one of the best names.

I think I sent you a message.

I sent you a message, Nathan.

As soon as it popped up on the screen as the credits were rolling, I just had to pause everything and learn everything.

I had to learn everything I could about Pookie Quinnell.

Isn't it?

Got her name is so fantastic, isn't it?

Isn't that something that you put on a plate from a fancy restaurant?

The best thing about it is that there is a kind of, you know, there's a kind of mid-20th century design that we sort of go to just to indicate the sort of past on television.

And, you know, there's sort of Victorian cyberpunk stuff down on the planet, but Kasherine Sardic, when he's in his pyjamas, his sort of classic, you know, 1950s sort of styling.

[19:37]

And here, Pookie Cornell has my mother's hair and I am absolutely here for it.

I think she's like Janeway, but with sort of fabulous sort of 60s hair and the wonderful rocking from side to side, which is better than they ever did on Voyager.

It is, it's terribly fun, and of course, it presents us with the sort of big moral dilemma that the doctor faces, and he makes it very clear.

He has to get a bad man to be kind on Christmas Day, a bad man who doesn't care about letting 4000 people die.

He has to persuade him to do the right thing.

And I think that there are people who are anxious about the approach that the doctor takes.

I think I said this to you at the time that I had problems with the taking somebody's life and completely rewriting it for your own ends, even if those ends that you are pursuing are ethically the right thing to do.

[20:47]

Yeah.

And certainly, he makes that point himself, doesn't he?

Isn't the heart of the episode that that's what he sets out to do, but that's not actually what he ends up doing.

He ends up saving the day, as it were, by just showing young Kasran, what he would become rather than changing old Kasran.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that that that's it.

So, so we have a problem, I think, and it's a sort of Cantian ethical problem of treating someone as a means to an end.

And so rewriting his history is a problem because we're not primarily doing that to benefit him, we're primarily doing it to save these other people, right?

And so he actually objects to that.

Like, Catherine Zardic himself complains that the doctor has rewritten his history.

Um, and and that he's been used.

He's been kind of rewritten.

And I think, you know, there is something about that, but I don't think that it stands up to scrutiny in this episode.

[21:57]

And I think part of the reason is that if the doctor had just got a big gun and pulled it on Kazherine Sardic and said, operate the thing or I will shoot you and anyone who tries to stop me, that that would have been completely ethically defensible behaviour.

But the trouble with it is it wouldn't have been fun and it wouldn't have been what the doctor does.

It wouldn't have been Doctor Who.

No, it wouldn't have been a good story.

Right.

So we needed a better story.

It possibly would have been a good Star Trek episode.

Yeah, a good Eric Saywood episode.

Sorry, a what?

I don't understand what you're saying.

And I do I agree because I think that there is...

I mean, look, I think there's sort of murkiness, if you, like, sort of, I think take this too far, but, but, but, like, I think ultimately, um, although he objects to being used to this end.

He is also a beneficiary of this.

[22:58]

Like, he has become, he has become, as of kinder person, um, at the end of this process.

And, and, and obviously, that is a sort of slightly icky if you delve into it too much.

But I think, I think the script and the production's strength really is in sort of highlighting the, the, sort of the redemptive arc.

And I think you're right.

I think obviously it wouldn't have been an interesting story.

Um, and so much of it is hinging on this Decensian story.

And that is obviously where Moffatt found his inspiration for this, for this as well.

But I do think that where Kasaran arrives at in the final act of this, I think, I think, sort of does justify the means in some respect.

And as well.

I think the point that Peter made is right as well.

It looks like the doctor's intention is originally that he will go back to the night that Kasran's father hit him because he'd already kind of noted that that was an important thing was that he couldn't hit the boy.

[24:10]

He says goodbye to Catherine Sardic at the end of that magnificent scene at the beginning of the episode where he 1st sort of turns up down the chimney.

Showcase for Matt.

Yeah, absolute showcase, Matt.

And he says, you're a bit like Christmas halfway out of the dark.

He's already recognised that Sardic isn't completely evil.

And so he rummages around in his past, finds this thing where he was hit as a boy.

The reason that he couldn't hit the kid.

And it goes back to try and make that better, you know?

And so he's the ghost of Christmas past and he's trying to make a lonely, sad boy happier.

And he's a boy who doesn't have a story about the fish.

And so the doctor goes back to give him a story about the fish.

That's right.

And I don't think the criticism really holds up because the doctor is not forcing Kazran into any of these decisions.

He's just showing him a better path.

Yeah, he's being nice to him, essentially.

And it doesn't really matter whether you're nice to someone in the past or the present.

[25:11]

There's no ethical distinction.

There are no ethical rules about time travel because it's not real.

So it's not wrong to go back in time to be nice to someone.

Do you know what I mean?

So what he does is goes back and gives him a story and gives him an incredible story. you know, and those scenes are just absolutely marvellous.

It's what Rose says in Parting of the Ways.

He shows you a better life.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think that there's a...

I mean, looking at that that sort of amazing sort of jaw-dropping um introduction to the doctor um in this episode as well.

Like there's, there's so much going on there as well.

But the thing that sort of stuck out to me again was, was the Sherlock parallel, which, which is obviously just, which I think is lent into, I, I'm not sure where this fell in production or whether it even would have been, um, Sherlock would have aired by this point.

But instead of the doctor having this sort of this hyperactive sleuthing moment, and this very performative sleuthing moment in front of the family that is still there and still watching, where you get the sense of the doctor in this scene is, both equally trying to understand Kazaran because he knows that Kazaran is, is his soul for this situation.

[26:31]

It's the way he can save Amy and Rory and the 4000 people on the ship.

Um, but he's also that, that part of the doctor's personality, which is showing people a better way, showing, showing how sort of you can be, you can be clever and funny and get under people's skin, um, which is which is so lovely.

And I actually think it's almost my favourite sort of sleuthing scene that Moffat's haven't written, in fact, like that, that, the little, the little notes about the chair being turned away from the portrait, um, I just, I just so, the cherry on top of the cake.

It's just it's just such a great scene.

And and it's kind of an important part of where he comes to the conclusion of what he has to do.

The way that he feels about his father is absolutely key to kind of solving the problem, I think.

So where does this come with Sherlock's history of broadcast, James?

So Sherlock broadcast on the 25th of July 2010 was the 1st episode.

So it was, yes, this, and this was filmed mid 2010.

[27:35]

And I think we had already seen, therefore, we'd seen Matt sleuthing in the 11th hour where he draws that conclusion about Rory by seeing Rory looking at his phone.

And then we get this again and it's clearly a Sherlock reference because he's aware that people have seen Sherlock by this point.

Also, isn't there an anecdote about...

They were almost cast the other way around.

I think they got it the right way, right?

Yeah, I'm so glad we got Matt and not Benedict.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they did.

I'm pretty sure they did see them both for Doctor Who and then they cast Benedict for Sherlock.

Yeah, I think I think Matt has that kind of awkward fun.

You know, like cumberbatch isn't fun.

Yeah, he's an eccentric actor, but he's not a lively actor.

Yeah, yeah.

It's so nice that this is a Christmas special because you have the time to explore that scene at the start.

It's a long and important scene.

[28:36]

And I think in a regular 42 minute episode, there just wouldn't have been room for it.

It gets out of control, though, doesn't it?

What the doctor's plan is is to make that night better, to give him a story, to comfort him after he's been hit by his father.

And it kind of gets out of control.

Firstly, because um, they meet the shark, uh, who is canonically called Jessica.

I've decided.

And apparently the shark changed gender behind the scenes, they gave it the like one name and then another name and...

It's referred to as her, though.

Little Catherine calls it her.

So Jessica, I think, absolutely.

It was just supposed to have the last shot with the caption Finn over it.

[29:37]

That was inspired by Moffatt's childhood fears of sharks.

He had a fear that sharks would somehow get out of the ocean and come and eat him and they were hiding under his bed.

It could still happen.

But it kind of gets out of hand because it's actually Catherine, who says to Abigail that the doctor promises to come back every Christmas.

You know, it's his idea and then the whole thing just kind of gets out of hand.

And that wonderful montage where they keep revisiting Abigail and opening up doctor, doctor.

And eventually, Casra.

He got hot in those 12 moments.

But it's like a fez and it's like bow ties and now we're wearing Tom Baker scarves and like the whole thing is so sort of fun and wonderful and madcap and it just becomes the doctor kind of taking it too far and sort of getting out of control because he's an idiot.

[30:42]

But what he does is he gives young Kazran a fantastic life, a just a series of wonderful Christmas Eve.

Yeah, and the thing that almost doesn't save the day is the fact that he did make Kazran a better person.

And then circumstances outside the control, Abigail's health, the fact that she's dying breaks his heart.

And and makes things so much worse.

Yeah.

And, and, and, you know, they say, fantastic line, bear better, broken heart than no heart at all.

Yeah, and he doesn't agree with it.

And so it doesn't work.

The doctor's interference gets us back to exactly the same place where we started, except now he's not heartless because he's been abused by his father and left on his own.

He's now heartless because he's had this sort of love affair that has ended in sort of terrible tragedy.

And part of me wonders if this happens sequentially in the doctor's timeline.

[31:45]

So if he's come back every Christmas as the doctor, or if he's had all of these Christmases one after the other and now hates Christmas.

I mean, well, there's also, and I didn't notice it when I was watching the story the 1st time around.

There are all these little hints dropped in throughout the episode that you would miss on the 1st viewing about her, about her health.

She's about to say something.

Like, you know, they keep focussing on the timer on the cabinet that she's in.

There are moments when they're like she's about to reveal that she's sick and they just like the moments are missed.

There's a thing where she, where the doctor says he's the doctor and she says, are you one of mine?

And then he gets busy with the fish outside or whatever and so it never gets addressed.

And I think it's actually it relies on us to pay attention.

We never stop and say she has a terrible illness until much later, but we know, like we know what that countdown means.

[32:53]

There's a lot of, there's a lot of trust.

What struck me as well watching it again was that there's so much sort of trust that Moffatt is placing in the audience in picking up these little details.

Like I, I, I, I think he is an incredibly talented writer and you can see it in this episode in the way that the plot moves out of these different um time streams of so nimbly and he's got the, the, so framing device of old Kazran sort of going through the photos and and watching, watching the old home videos to sort of help him.

On Doctor Who's give a show projector.

But I love I love those bits.

Like, I love where you're sort of getting Michael Gambon to react to a Doctor Who episode, basically.

Like, it's almost like, he's almost watching this, this little mini, mini, these mini adventures with us.

And that, and that scene that introduces us to that framing device where, um, it's all that one shot of the projected bedroom with um, young Kazran sobbing.

[33:58]

And then the doctor walks out and it's in this, it's contained within the same shot and then the TARDIS arrives and he leaps out of it.

And it's just, um, actually, I just think like the, the, the way Stevens managed to sort of balance all this in a very like user friendly way.

Like, it's still incredibly clear what's happening.

But at the same time, giving us all these hints that do require you to be super on it and to be picking up all these clues.

It's just sort of him operating at 11, I think.

I think it really is just like a powerhouse of a script, this one.

The thing I find beautiful about this episode is that Kasran discovers his life at the same time that it's happening in the past.

He discovers his memories, not because he's forgotten them because they didn't exist anymore, but he's actually discovering his own life at the same time we are.

And like the framing mechanism, the photos, he sees his photos they are new, but they're old.

It's like it's like, no, I really love this episode.

[35:00]

You kind of think in a in a story that didn't have time travel, what we would have had would be that Catherine had forgotten his past and then we would get a flashback in which we and he rediscovered it.

And so what the doctor is doing in a way is just causing a flashback to happen, that the doctor's time travel ability is really an ability to manipulate story.

And so the whole flashback sequence happens and is only possible because the doctor can travel in time.

It's Dickens a Christmas carol, but even more timey whimey.

The thing is, it's peculiarly suited to dog too, isn't it?

It's very suited to Stephen because I think maybe at times in stories to come.

Steven's ability to explain to the audience how quickly and cleverly he's moving might lapse, but in this, he's bang on the money.

You have to keep up just enough to follow it and just enough to be invested in it.

[36:04]

Yeah.

I mean, there's that wonderful moment where he has to nip forward in time to hear Catherine shout out the combination to the vault. just about, thanks, and then sort of heads back into the flashback, you know, the whole thing is sort of so wonderfully and sort of cleverly done.

And so the Christmas pass thing doesn't work.

The Ghost of Christmas Pass doesn't convince Sardic to unlock the cloud layer and let them through, which is part of the heartbreak of the episode.

Yeah.

And then, of course, we get the ghost of Christmas present.

And I think this is incredibly well done as well.

The point at which Amy arrives, I think it's actually sort of like, I think, almost everyone going through season five.

I've actually come to really love Amy in a way that I didn't.

I know that I didn't when I 1st went through it.

Um, and, and I think when she arrives at the point that she arrives in the story, um, I think you are missing Karen, like I think you are sort of, um, really waiting for Amy to show up.

[37:17]

At least I found myself waiting for Amy to show up.

And I think that that is sort of, for me was the moment where I sort of step back a little bit and sort of realised, oh, this, this story is so clever, because you can kind of, you almost forget sort of that, um, that real, like very over the top moment where, you know, Matt Smith is in the chair and he sort of winking as he says, I'm the ghost of Christmas Pass, and you kind of almost forget that structure's even in place because it's so enjoyable.

And then at that point where you realise what's happening and the reality of this sort of doomed ship that's crashing to the on the plant surface.

And, um, I think it's so clever because you kind of have forgotten that it's even coming.

And then, um, I think Karen scenes with, with, um, Michael Gamble are just fantastic and she really, and even that little moment where she sort of, she clocks what the doctor's done, um, to him and, and, and that, that he has changed this, this man completely overnight.

[38:20]

And there's an amazing sincerity in Karen's performance where she says, look, I'm actually really sorry, and I can, I can see that you're going through this, you know, this, this tumultuous night, but, but you just need to think about these 1000s of people that are in danger.

And I think it's such a moment for Karen and she really sells it.

It's great.

I think Pookie has this sort of incredible moment here as well, because initially we see them singing and Karen says they're singing for their lives, and we think that they're singing for their lives, because, you know, they're trying to make Catherine feel guilty.

And what we discover is that a whole heap of stuff, the doctor has been doing all this stuff in the background and we don't get to see it, but the doctor has clearly been in communication with Karen and with the spaceship.

He's been encouraging them to sing in order to, you know, unlock the cloud layer.

There's all these things that he's been doing that we haven't been privy to.

[39:23]

And again, it just makes him seem incredibly smart that the doctor solves this by being clever and having a brilliant plan.

There's that, I think this is the line that you were reaching for when you brought this up.

There's that wonderful moment, you know, that's all explained to you.

And then Kazran says, why are they still singing?

And the captain says, no one's told them.

It's so good.

Like, and you know, it's such a stupid space catastrophe.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, sure, it's there to kind of motivate the doctor and create the moral dilemma and stuff.

But the way it's presented to us is it's a spaceship full of people that we don't properly see and it's sort of mostly word peril.

But it really makes us care.

Like it actually properly makes us care about it.

It shouldn't be a lyric peril.

It's like a Christmas carol with Nightmare of Eden as a raven sequence.

[40:27]

I was fully prepared to cry a lot in this episode.

I'll let you know.

But I did.

I did, but I also did in a, I did in this, in that scene, which I was not, which, you know, like, I think is probably testament to, um, how well everything's working, that, that, as you say, like this little, this scene that could have easily been word parallel is, is quite an incredibly affecting beat in the story where you even get those just on the monitors, you can see the, the, the passengers just singing.

Um, and I think maybe because, you know, by that stage, we've been introduced, um, to Abigail and and and kind of the importance of music has kind of already been floated in the story.

So it sort of feels really kind of thematically cohesive that this is, this is what they're doing.

It doesn't kind of feel, um, sort of treakly or anything.

It feels like really earned because we've heard about like sort of the way the fog works, the way the harmony intersects with that.

[41:28]

It's been really cleverly teased so that when this sort of almost this Christmas coral kind of element comes into it, it sort of feels like all these pieces are locking together really nicely.

It's fantastic, that scene too, where the fish keeps biting the doctor.

When the doctor is trying to explain that it doesn't work because Jessica likes the singing.

It's not that Jessica likes the singing.

There are space reasons, right?

And he's being bitten because the space reasons explanation is stupid and it's the power of music and it's absolutely magic and the story won't hear any other explanation.

The fish like the singing, shut up.

That's it.

It's absolutely brilliant.

And so, you know, that's leading, obviously, to the denouement with Catherine Jenkins, which is obviously where all 3 of us, 4 of us.

Peter, do you still have a human soul, you can...

[42:29]

I've misleaded again.

So you have to steal others.

Watch out, Jack.

I don't have a soul.

But that was the scene where we all cry.

You know, that dénouement with Catherine Jenkins singing, but it's absolutely, as you said, Max, it's led up to, and it's magic.

It is the power of song to solve the, you know, to solve the principal dilemma of the story.

But you know, I didn't cry in that moment.

And what I did feel was that pleasantly unpleasant melancholy that you can get at Christmas and that's what infuses this episode.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think it's the one that, and I think, you know, I don't want to jump ahead too much to next year's Christmas special, but I, I am of the opinion that it's sort of, um, I think it's nowhere near as good as this, but I think it's sort of often unfairly maligned, and I think that that's special comes close to that feeling again, and I think you can see it in a lot of Moffatt's Christmas specials, which is this, and it's why they, I think they bear repeat watches at Christmas.

[43:33]

They feel right for Christmas is exactly that.

There's sort of an attention to capturing that, um, slight melancholy that's sort of in the best, um, like it's a wonderful life for, or, um, even a Muppets Christmas carol.

You know, like there's, there's like that, that feeling is sort of what, um, is what makes this story so right for the holiday for, for the event as well.

You know, I think that the difference that I see with Moffat's Christmas specials is that the story comes out of Christmas, whereas in most of Russell's Christmas Doctor Who's, the Christmas is hung over it like tinsel.

Yeah.

And look, I think that's kind of okay.

I mean, even sometimes Russell's Christmas specials fight against it be Christmas.

I mean, we have to explain in dialogue why on earth of all days Donna is having her wedding on Christmas Eve because no saint.

Blazing sunshine.

Because no one would ever do.

[44:35]

So they're not about Christmas, but Moffat really does try to capture the spirit of Christmas.

And sometimes he doesn't bother.

Like, I don't think return of Dr. Mysterio is particularly about Christmas.

But other, you know, the other ones do tend to be.

But that's what makes this so good because it is about something and it has a character journey in it, which with the best will in the world, I don't think something like a Christmas invasion or Voyage of the Dam does have, even though they're very good in their own ways.

Yeah, and that's not what they're reaching for.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and then, of course, we get the ghost of Christmas future, and it is a classic Moffat turn, isn't it?

And you even have Catherine saying, oh, you're going to take me forward to my future and show me dying alone.

You know, spoiler alert.

I knew that happened anyway.

And then he just says, no, you know, I'm showing you your future now.

And it's so perfect.

It's so beautiful that I can almost forgive the fact that the Blinovich limitation effect.

[45:40]

No, forget I said that.

I wasn't even thinking about.

No, no, no, I was.

I don't want heartwarming character moments.

I want Morden undead.

But I think this is the thing.

Maybe you can read that into the story as well. changed so much.

Head Cannon, he's changed so much that he's no longer the same person and therefore can hug himself.

Well, that's teased earlier in the story, isn't it?

And, you know, it's his father hugging him as a kid as well, you know, and him, you know, that thing, I don't know, is it cheesy, but, you know, the...

That idea of embracing yourself at different times.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, sometimes people talk about, you know, feeling miserable when they were children and imagining, like, feeling like I would love to give that version of me a hug.

And so there is something sort of super primal about it.

And it's him fixing his own problem, isn't it?

[46:41]

It's like it's not the doctor doing it at all.

It's the man who wouldn't hit a kid because he was hit by his father fixing the problem for himself.

It's the end of the happiness patrol, isn't it?

Yeah, it is.

That's what it is.

It's so good.

And I think, like, you know, this is the bit where it, like, truly the floodgates opened and I had a proper ball.

But it's in that, um, it's just in that that 45 seconds where you go from him, almost as a, it's, it's, it's quite scary. actually.

It's almost this reflex at this point where he turns around and sees his younger self.

And it's sort of not quite clear.

If it's not a reflex, it's sort of not clear what initiates that that impulse to to hit out and to lash out.

Maybe it's of projected at the doctor or whatever, but, but, um, but between that moment and just him, um, sobbing into the arms of like his, you know, his, his younger self.

[47:46]

I think there's something so, um, profound and and, you know, just talking about it makes me kind of tear up.

It's, um, and I think it's sold so well by Michael Gamble, and I'm not sure if now is the time to talk about how, how it truly sort of, phenomenal Michael Gamble is in, is in this, um, but, but, I, I, I think that scene is sort of, is, is so, is so charged with, with so many things, and, and I think probably each time I've, I've seen it, it's brought me to the same kind of, embarrassing solving puddles, but it gets me every time.

See, I always read that scene as, I think you're supposed to read that scene as, um, young Kazran calls old Kazran dad and he goes to hit him because he's not like his dad. like his father, exactly.

And then realising, oh, I am.

[48:47]

I am my father.

That could be right.

That could be right.

I think you're right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's some it is incredibly charged, as you said.

It's almost like a primal scream before he finally realises that he has to show himself that he should not turn out like he has.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I just to circle back as well.

I think, I think, um, I mean, I think in the whole, from the 1st scene Michael Gambon's in, he's, um, he's brilliant and he, and he's so funny and he's kind of, he's, he's just his voice in this episode.

I could literally just listen to a recording of him talking throughout this throughout this episode and it would be equally enjoyable, but I think I actually think that he might be the best guest star.

I, I, it's sort of an amazing intersection of, of how big a star he is and how brilliant and clearly, um, there's just, he's sort of giving it absolutely everything and there's no way, like, like, even just the way he watches, um, those projections that I can't imagine, you know, you know, we're there on set or anything, but, but they're so beautiful, and he sort of, he is another actor, like Olivia Coleman, that if they start to cry in something, I will I will be I will be shortly following them.

[50:08]

It's easier.

It's a very graceful performance, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

I just, and I think, I think he's so nimble in it as well, because you can see from that 1st scene.

He's he's also so great at being this cartoonish kind of Dickensian villain.

Um, and that would have been sort of that would have been a good enough performance by itself.

But sort of by the end of it, he's asked to do a lot in the episode.

He's asked to play, you know, 2 characters as well.

And I think, um, in that final scene where you get him sort of cradling this younger version of him and then, and then also in, uh, interacting with Abigail.

Um, he's just, you know, impossible to look away from.

Well, you say he's a villain, but is he the one of the 1st characters in Doctor Who's both villain and companion in the same story?

Since maybe Turlow or maybe Dodo?

Like villain, villain, companion, and victim.

All I was thinking while I was watching his performance was, you know, he's agreed to be in the show that brought us nightmare of Eden.

[51:12]

And he's not condescending.

He's not doing a kind of low red version.

He's absolutely keeping it everything he's gone.

You were saying before, Max, um, that it's a really nuanced performance.

I find it incredibly believable that this character, this person, their soul is hanging in the balance.

There's so many moments in this, in this story when, you know, his past is changing in front of his eyes.

You can see he is he's teaching on the precipice, but between being that man who will let 4000 something people die and becoming a better person.

[52:15]

Like the duality that he is able to portray, I think, would have failed in a lesser actor.

When you get a movie star, you get all that interiority, don't you?

Yeah, yeah.

And then the performance of him afterwards, like when he goes and speaks to Abigail, and when she tells him how silly he's been, and, and, you know, when he goes up and tries to make the console thing work, and when he's clearly on side with the doctor, it's not just that he's willing to save these people, but he also wants to try and help the doctor to do it when he can't.

I just, it's terribly beautiful because he's not immediately rewarded for being good.

He loses Abigail.

And he'd lost her already, I guess.

You know, she only had one day left no matter how he behaved or what he did, no matter whether he kept her in that fridge until, you know, after he died or whatever.

[53:20]

So maybe his reward, he does get a reward.

He gets one perfect day with the woman that he loves, but it's sort of tinged with heartbreak as well.

Is this a literal fridging?

No.

She has to be dead to be dead.

It's so nice because it's so nuanced in writing and performance because it's almost like his contact with his younger self.

He sort of visibly sheds years in the points and becomes more childlike himself.

It's very subtle in the performance.

But it's interesting as well what you said, Nathan, about kind of, you know, that one perfect day because is there a river parallel here where the doctor will later put off sending River to the library so that he can have more than just that one day with her?

And it's interesting that they bring in Amy to make that point for Kasran to make that point.

I mean, is all of this in Moffat's mind because it's terribly clever.

Or, I mean, he has a tendency to go back to things that he's done successfully before.

[54:24]

But, I mean, the day that's planned.

And, you know, there's all that sort of silly nonsense with the doctor and the doctor's reunited with Amy and there's the jokes about the snowman, which I think are just sort of absolutely wonderful, he's clearly made 20 snowmen himself.

You know, she says, oh, look, you know, you could almost mistake that for a real person and the snowman's not bad either.

Like there's all these sort of wonderful jokes at the doctor's expense, but then she expresses concern, you know, like that's, and the doctor's reply is so beautiful and it's that thing that I've said before.

He's super awkward and stuff, but he's incredibly wise and it is that everything has to end.

Otherwise nothing could ever begin.

And like that's so sort of cheesy and it is sort of a bit Disney, but it's also beautiful as well and it works thematically with what we've got in the story.

Just tacking onto that as well.

There's there's a follow on from that line that apparently Stephen sort of said in the tweet along that he cut and that he regretted that he cut, which is that snow isn't snow until it falls, or something like that, which is obviously, you know, like, obviously, uh, sort of leaning into that, uh, leaning into that sort of the Disney aspect of it again, but it's, um, it's true.

[55:45]

And I just, just to talk about Matt's performance really quickly.

Like there's, there's, I, I think it's been noted on the podcast before that this is the 1st performance he gives, um, after knowing that he's a hit.

And also, you know, the 1st story that potentially people could come on board with, and obviously with a Christmas special, you get, you get sort of an inflated audience as well.

It's the 1st story where he wasn't a new doctor.

He was the doctor.

Yeah, yeah, precisely.

And just, and I think he's pretty instantly, um, excellent as I think a majority of the podcast has as well.

But also, I think in this episode, you can see just that like everything that was working in series 5 is kind of is is almost operating on an even higher level here.

Like there's, there's, there's a moment earlier in the episode where, um, where Kazran asks sort of quite flippantly, oh, what do you want?

And the doctor's line is a simple life, but it's so, and it's sort of such a throwaway kind of, because, because so much of the, the scene is sort of these sort of like witty retorts and all that kind of stuff, but the way Matt delivers it, is so earnest and, and, um, quiet.

[56:56]

And then he just switches to, he, and he shifts gears into being sort of the threatening, you know, oncoming storm doctor, like a few seconds after that.

But it's just, it's sort of, it's such a perfect illustration of how almost just how flexible and sort of malleable he is in this story.

He is so, I, I think it might be my favourite performance of the doctor, that this particular episode.

Maybe, I think maybe Peter Capaldi has an episode later in later in the show where I think might just top it, but it is, it's extraordinary.

It's extraordinary performance.

And it's so incredible because Matt is delivering that same calibre of performance up against Michael Gambon and against 2 people who've never acted on screen before, Danny Horn, who plays young Kazran and Catherine Jenkins.

And it's just incredible.

Yeah.

[58:13]

Well, new whistler, that's all we have time for, this Christmas in July.

We will be back later in the year to talk about Stephen Moffat's difficult second album, starting with the Impossible Astronaut.

In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook, at FTE podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody Interterra.

Until next time, keep the faith.

Stay off the naughty list.

Thank you very much for listening.

Merry Christmas and good night.

Ta-ta.

Good night.

See ya.

That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, Max Gelbarton, James Selwood.

Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam.

This episode, Kasran Scrooge Dick, was recorded on the 21st of June 2021 and released on the 25th of July.

I'd like to dedicate this episode to the memory of Gracie, the lively, angry little terrier who was our friend and companion for more than 20 years, who we said goodbye to earlier this month.

[59:23]

Go well, sweetheart.

I'm sorry.

What do we want to do?

Is that an out?

You know this is still the fifth highest rated story of the new series.

Is it 12.1 million?

Yeah.

12.

Wow.

That's that's massive.

From memory, that was a massive BBC one Christmas 2010.

I think like EastEnders was massive.

Doctor Who was massive.

Was it cold?

Yeah, may have been.

It may actually have been snowing now, I think, back.

That was the thing that I thought of with the snow as well. was just the abortive attempts for it to be snowed.

You know what I mean?

Like the 1st Christmas special.

It's just the sicker X spaceship blowing up and then, you know, like it's... something fired into the sky.

It's all fake or whatever.

Bits of food.

And then in the end, the end of time, yeah, it's just, it's just David Tennant's angst to just...

[1:00:25]

All right.

Well, I think we did okay.

What do you reckon?

Is there anything?

Seeing if there's anything that you can use?

We're doing it now, darling.

You know, the one thing that I thought throughout, even though Catherine Jenkins is amazing is Abigail.

I thought if it hadn't already happened.

What a brilliant marriage this episode would have been between Dr. and Kylie Minogue.

I love Kylie, but Catherine Jenkins's voice. you know what I mean?

And frankly, Catherine Jenkins is a better act.

Oh wow.

Have you never seen Street Fighter?

Yes, unfortunately.

She is so good in this, Catherine Jenkins.

Like, I, I, um, the, there was a, not to keep on talking about the tweet along, but, but Matt Smith on Twitter, um, sort of, I think, sort of, had several tweets where he was just glowing of Catherine Jenkins about her performance.

[1:01:27]

And I think it's, it is sort of miraculously good for someone acting on screen for the 1st time.

And I think that, you know, that final song, both the testament to her and to Murray, is, is, is so beautiful.

Like we've been we've been pretty lucky with our Doctor Who Christmas songs before, but I think this one is sort of on another level.

It's so good.

Murray's on, he's incredible.

And what's surprising about that is that he didn't have very long to write the song. had been approached by the production team and and told, you know, oh, we need a song. and and then, you know, they left it for a while and came back and it's like, oh, we really need that song.

And then, you know, they explained to me what it was about.

He was like, oh, I better go write that then.

Did he put silence in there as a kind of thing?

Oh, that is unclear.

[1:02:29]

They recorded it, the demo.

Like was almost perfect because, you know, it's Catherine Jenkins.

And then he went back and reorchestrated that end scene with Sorry, he went back and re, not orchestrated what I'm for, rearranged.

So he then went back and rearranged the song for the National Orchestra of Wales so that it heightened that scene even more.

It was supposed to be quite sparse initially and they gave it all the swelling.

They have to, because that's the thing.

You know, it's the, it's the music that, that, you know.

And she's done it as well.

Yeah.

It's the thing about Catherine Jenkins.

She does have a beautiful voice and, you know, we get to hear that and that's obviously why she's being cast, but because she is a fresh performer, It's remarkably uncynical performance and I think it infuses the entire episode.

[1:03:33]

We love it because it's not a cynical episode.

All right.

I'll do an out trade.

I think that was good.

We'll just, um, we'll go with that and I think that's a tag.